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Thread: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

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    Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Hi,

    The spec of the new HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift adapter says that a shift
    of 18mm can be achieved.

    I'm wondering if that statement is true for all of the lenses (28, 35, 50,80)
    that can be attached or if there are restrictions for the wide angle lenses?

    For example, using a Flexbody i remember the maximum shift with the
    50mm lens is 5mm while it is 15mm with the 150 mm lens.

    A 18mm shift with the 28mm lens would make that beast a want-to-have
    tool

    Regards,
    Ralf

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Given that the Hasselblad 28mm can not even support the full image circle of the coming 60MP back, I imagine that it is impossible to get that much shift:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=29157
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Hi,

    I met two guys from Hasselblad at an Open House of our local
    photo dealer today. They confirmed that the 18 mm shift works
    well with the HCD 28mm lens (and all the other supported lenses).

    Enjoy the weekend,
    Ralf

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    This contradicts what other Hasselblad employees have said... I would test it carefully before buying based on this fact.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Given that the Hasselblad 28mm can not even support the full image circle of the coming 60MP back, I imagine that it is impossible to get that much shift:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...howtopic=29157
    You imagine wrong.
    The HTS does indeed have 18mm of shift. The HTS has glass in it which increases the projected circle making movements possible. There are some restrictions when combining tilt and shift (just as on a view camera) there is a diagram on the datasheet which can be downloaded from Hasselblad.

    Nick-T

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Ah, I didn't realise that the HTS had optical elements! Interesting!
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    You imagine wrong.
    The HTS does indeed have 18mm of shift. The HTS has glass in it which increases the projected circle making movements possible. There are some restrictions when combining tilt and shift (just as on a view camera) there is a diagram on the datasheet which can be downloaded from Hasselblad.

    Nick-T
    The data sheet is interesting...I didn't know that the HTS embeds the tilt/shift data into the image for post processing. With all of the electro-mechanical/optical bits in the HTS, the price make more sense.

    Steve

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    yes indeedy - what a wonderful thing it is to actually CHECK teh specs of a device - before having an OPINION hmmm?

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    This contradicts what other Hasselblad employees have said... I would test it carefully before buying based on this fact.
    The "other Hasselblad employees" didn't know there were optical elements in the HTS?

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by rmueller View Post
    Hi,

    A 18mm shift with the 28mm lens would make that beast a want-to-have
    tool

    Regards,
    Ralf
    Also I forgot to say I did a stitch with the 28mm and HTS at Photokina (2 horizontal frames max shift each way) and the angle of view was probably 30% wider than the 28mm alone.
    Nick-T

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Nick - are you based in Sydney?

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Nick - are you based in Sydney?
    Auckland New Zealand Peter, although we do consider Sydney a suburb

    Nick-T

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    oh pity - woudl liek to catch up somtime. re "suburb of Sydney" - I grew up in Bondi...

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    yes indeedy - what a wonderful thing it is to actually CHECK teh specs of a device - before having an OPINION hmmm?
    That's probably aimed at me. I have come to the same conclusion. I saw the photos from Photokina and thought it was a fancy bellows with electronics. Finding out it had optical elements gave me the same feeling as if I had seen a photo of a normal "car" from the side, only to find out it had only two wheels *Most* holes don't have optical properties, and the rest aren't holes...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Not aimed @you in particular Carsten - I have just started to get 'sensitised' to information that isnt 'informative' and then resulting 'opinions' based on this type of 'information' being spread..

    seems that Hasselblad is the prime beneficiary more often than not of a negative slant on pretty much everything they do - and yet if one looks at the facts - they have produced by far and away the most intergrated working right now without requiring rubber bands and gaffer tape system there is

    the HTS has drawn more "they cant do that commentary" after the company made its announcement and posted specs - and yet still people persist in saying he said this and I heard that..

    I am happy to see this modern 'flexbody' announced - it has potentially saved me the hassle of spending large on a view camera system - and will be the thing that entices me into using tethered shooting for the first time - opening up the whole other set of remote shooting tools that Hasselblad supplies and work...

    btw - so as not to confuse me with a fanboy - my other system I am now 'testing' is a P45+ and a Phase body and I have owned a shot extensively with Leaf on H and Alpa.

    Apart from 'closing 'their system (just as Sinar and Leaf have with their bodies) the only 'bad' thing Hasselblad have done is knoch their prices down by 30-40%.

    Phase seems to enjoy a particularly 'rosy' rep in a few of the forums - compared to others - find this quite strange is a user of both backs on various systems.

    ok i will shudup now...

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Not aimed @you in particular Carsten
    That's very nice, but a white lie At least wrt. this thread. I learned a lesson here.

    It seems that Hasselblad is the prime beneficiary more often than not of a negative slant on pretty much everything they do - and yet if one looks at the facts - they have produced by far and away the most intergrated working right now without requiring rubber bands and gaffer tape system
    Okay, I will be a sitting duck for the following summary of "What Hasselblad Has Done Wrong (TM)", tongue-in-cheek:

    - Designed a mickey-plastic-mouse looking body. We do have a sense of aesthetics around here, and two-tone is so out-of-fashion. Worse: they could fix it with each new generation, but don't! Grey, black, dark blue, just not beige, like a cheap PC, or the ceiling in the bedroom.

    - Closed their system after two open generations. This is far, far, FAR worse than just designing a closed system in the first place, and got people really angry. Some are still angry about that one. Some still have H1s and H2s with no intention of upgrading. And they get angrier by the day, as Hasselblad releases lenses they cannot take full advantage of, unless they ditch their Phase One and go H3D.

    - Related: bought a not-the-best digital back company for the purpose of going closed. They are in the same ballpark as the others, surely, but as soon as you *take away* the possibility of a slight improvement, people are unhappy. I think there would have been a lot less bitching if they had merged with Phase One. How do you do hour-long exposures with an H3? Answer: you don't.

    - Designed lenses which require software corrections for ultimate performance, and market it as better. (Leica are my hairy-chest, all optical, ultimate performance, perfect solution heroes, and I would plan for an S2 if I could change its back and use a waist-level viewfinder, for which I have a weakness). Some of these lenses don't even have the image circle for real 645, so the coming sensors will have people swapping lenses like underwear, but at a much higher loss.

    - Switch from a traditional German lens company (Zeiss) to a less-well-known, and less-well-respected Japanese lens company (Fuji, which is less well known as lens maker, but not in general). I am not saying that the lenses are worse, but you don't muck with people's religion. Okay, perhaps Zeiss turned them down but it is still Hasselblad's fault. Somehow.

    - Drop prices massively with no warning. Anyone who has bought a Hasselblad H3D-39 or 33 recently must feel just shafted, but rudely.

    - And the latest: add optics to a bellows! Why not just release a new lens with sufficient image circle to achieve the same as the 28mm, or even better, release the bellows with a mount to use existing LF lenses, like the Rodenstock or Schneider. Oh, I know, maximize profits. While it is a very clever design, every extra optical element reduces performance, especially when the original optics were not designed with it in mind, which I presume is the case for at least some of the supported lenses. It is like a tele-converter, but in reverse. It may be really good, but it is still worse.

    So, there you have it: innocent as a lamb. I understand Hasselblad's decision, but they are rather selfish, and I understand the dissatisfied users too.
    Carsten - Website

  17. #17
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    This does put in proper perspective your inaccurate comments about the HTS. [G]
    BTW, which medium format digital back do you use?

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Also I forgot to say I did a stitch with the 28mm and HTS at Photokina (2 horizontal frames max shift each way) and the angle of view was probably 30% wider than the 28mm alone.
    Nick-T
    Based on the number I'm going to guess that the 30% you saw there was because you were shooting a back which had a 1.3 crop factor. As stated earlier the HC28mm barely covers the 1.1 crop factor chips (another way of saying barely covers would be to say the chip sees nearly the entire field-of-view projected by the lens). So with the smaller chip you would be able to, by stitching, access the part of the lens projection normally cropped. Either that or the edge of your frame was in the fall-off area where sharpenss and shadow detail (due to vignette-caused-underexposure at capture and software push in post during lens-correction) suffer drastically.

    Because it uses a magnifying element the lens goes from 28mm to 42mm and only by stitching can you recover the field of view of a 28mm. As stated, this will degrade quality as you've now pushed the image through another 6 lens elements (the 1.5x glass is 6 elements in 5 groups). You'll also lose 1.3 stops.

    Can you let us know more details?

    That said, I (even as a Phase One user/seller) will be the first to say the HTS is an interesting approach to the problem. Once the Phase One tilt-shift lens is widely available it will be interesting to see whether it or the HTS gains more popularity. The funny thing is that for photographers needing tilt/shift for their main workflow, neither the Phase One nor the Hasselblad solution is nearly as good as a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman for rise, nor as good as a micro-view-camera like the Silvestri for rise/tilt/swing. So to me most users looking for a Tilt-Shift adapter for a medium format camera are looking for occasional use and flexibility rather than the main part of their workflow. For that purpose I think the Phase One tilt-shift has an edge. But for those who want to completely replace a solution like Silvestri or Horseman and are willing to accept the lower quality compared to the silvestri/horseman the Hasselblad has an edge because it will be available in multiple focal lengths sooner (two more tilt-shift lenses are on the near horizon for Phase, but only the 45mm is scheduled for imminent release).

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Based on the number I'm going to guess that the 30% you saw there was because you were shooting a back which had a 1.3 crop factor.
    Nope it was a 1.1 chip (39)


    As stated earlier the HC28mm barely covers the 1.1 crop factor chips (another way of saying barely covers would be to say the chip sees nearly the entire field-of-view projected by the lens). So with the smaller chip you would be able to, by stitching, access the part of the lens projection normally cropped. Either that or the edge of your frame was in the fall-off area where sharpenss and shadow detail (due to vignette-caused-underexposure at capture and software push in post during lens-correction) suffer drastically.
    Well stupidly I didn't keep any of the sample files but the edge to edge sharpness on the stitched shot was excellent, we had quite a few pros looking at it and they were impressed.
    Because it uses a magnifying element the lens goes from 28mm to 42mm and only by stitching can you recover the field of view of a 28mm.
    True but 42 is wider than 45 My point was that by stitching you get wider again than the 28mm (my estimate would be 30%).

    As stated, this will degrade quality as you've now pushed the image through another 6 lens elements (the 1.5x glass is 6 elements in 5 groups). You'll also lose 1.3 stops.
    Correct on -1.3 stops. And yes you would expect image degradation with 6 elements but I couldn't see it. This mirrors the experiences of people using the 1.7X converter (also 6 elements).
    Can you let us know more details?

    That said, I (even as a Phase One user/seller) will be the first to say the HTS is an interesting approach to the problem. Once the Phase One tilt-shift lens is widely available it will be interesting to see whether it or the HTS gains more popularity. The funny thing is that for photographers needing tilt/shift for their main workflow, neither the Phase One nor the Hasselblad solution is nearly as good as a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman for rise, nor as good as a micro-view-camera like the Silvestri for rise/tilt/swing. So to me most users looking for a Tilt-Shift adapter for a medium format camera are looking for occasional use and flexibility rather than the main part of their workflow. For that purpose I think the Phase One tilt-shift has an edge. But for those who want to completely replace a solution like Silvestri or Horseman and are willing to accept the lower quality compared to the silvestri/horseman the Hasselblad has an edge because it will be available in multiple focal lengths sooner (two more tilt-shift lenses are on the near horizon for Phase, but only the 45mm is scheduled for imminent release).
    Certainly dedicated tilt-shift solutions will offer more movements for the specialist, it would be interesting to test the HTS/H3D combo against a dedicated system for sure. As for the Hartblei I can only hope that you guys have managed to make big improvements to it with multi-coatings as I think it's fair to say that is not a lens known for it's sharpness..

    Nick-T

  20. #20
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    That said, I (even as a Phase One user/seller) will be the first to say the HTS is an interesting approach to the problem. Once the Phase One tilt-shift lens is widely available it will be interesting to see whether it or the HTS gains more popularity. The funny thing is that for photographers needing tilt/shift for their main workflow, neither the Phase One nor the Hasselblad solution is nearly as good as a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman for rise, nor as good as a micro-view-camera like the Silvestri for rise/tilt/swing. So to me most users looking for a Tilt-Shift adapter for a medium format camera are looking for occasional use and flexibility rather than the main part of their workflow. For that purpose I think the Phase One tilt-shift has an edge. But for those who want to completely replace a solution like Silvestri or Horseman and are willing to accept the lower quality compared to the silvestri/horseman the Hasselblad has an edge because it will be available in multiple focal lengths sooner (two more tilt-shift lenses are on the near horizon for Phase, but only the 45mm is scheduled for imminent release).

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    Doug: I don't know the first thing about MTF lens performance charts, but Hasselblad has them on its web page for the HTS 1.5 with the HC 28mm lens. I am sure that Phase has the MTF charts for the Hartblei 45mm. Perhaps you could share them with us and let someone knowledgeable compare them with the HTS charts.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    I'm not an MTF guy either but here are the Hartblei ones:

    http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm

    Granted Phase are saying they have improved the lens so the figures above may be out of date..

    Nick-T

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    That's very nice, but a white lie At least wrt. this thread. I learned a lesson here.
    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post

    We all live and learn..especially hedge fund managers like me. so another day in market purgatory allows me the time to respond..



    Okay, I will be a sitting duck for the following summary of "What Hasselblad Has Done Wrong (TM)", tongue-in-cheek:

    - Designed a mickey-plastic-mouse looking body. We do have a sense of aesthetics around here, and two-tone is so out-of-fashion. Worse: they could fix it with each new generation, but don't! Grey, black, dark blue, just not beige, like a cheap PC, or the ceiling in the bedroom.


    I agree a nice black body version would be even nicer

    - Closed their system after two open generations. This is far, far, FAR worse than just designing a closed system in the first place, and got people really angry. Some are still angry about that one. Some still have H1s and H2s with no intention of upgrading. And they get angrier by the day, as Hasselblad releases lenses they cannot take full advantage of, unless they ditch their Phase One and go H3D.


    Well I was an original purchaser of the H1 body so I know what you mean. However, technology has moved on over the last 10 or so years wouldnt you agree? and 10 years later

    - Related: bought a not-the-best digital back company for the purpose of going closed. They are in the same ballpark as the others, surely, but as soon as you *take away* the possibility of a slight improvement, people are unhappy. I think there would have been a lot less bitching if they had merged with Phase One. How do you do hour-long exposures with an H3? Answer: you don't.


    I have never used an Imacon back - my original back was a Leaf75 ( and I wont go into the lies and broken promises that company spread through its dealer network regarding its upgrade path ) At any rate teh H3d11-39 back I use today - compared to teh P45+ I also use...well lets just say .twh blad is in NO WAY INFERIOR to the P45+ back - for my purposes

    Regarding people and their emotions - people are entitled to their emotions and companies are entitled to compete using whatever business model works for them - ultimately survival is the benchmark.

    Regading Hour long exposures - I dont do hour long exposures so I dont really care - and if I ever want to I guess I would use the Phase back.


    - Designed lenses which require software corrections for ultimate performance, and market it as better. (Leica are my hairy-chest, all optical, ultimate performance, perfect solution heroes, and I would plan for an S2 if I could change its back and use a waist-level viewfinder, for which I have a weakness). Some of these lenses don't even have the image circle for real 645, so the coming sensors will have people swapping lenses like underwear, but at a much higher loss.


    If you ever get the chance to actually USE a 28 then you might change your mind. My benchmark optics are Schneider digitars - not puny 35mm lenses. Against the Schneider 35XL the 28 performas quite well - with al teh advantages of autofocus and lens corrections.

    The S2 is an interesting SLR camera - as you sayno WLF ( teh reason I have bought a 205TCC and am about to buy a CFV11 back to go with it. Interesting that Leica will be bringing out boht leaf and focal plane lenses for use on teh one body - I look forward to seeing the system - but I wnt make the mistake ( thsi time ) of being a beta tester for it. using my own money. If/When I do buy the S2 - I knwo it wont be Hasselblad that goes.

    I am sure yoru comment re "real 645" is a joke suffice to say that @ 39 megapixels I ahve more than enough resolution to crop a shot in any aspect I like
    .

    - Switch from a traditional German lens company (Zeiss) to a less-well-known, and less-well-respected Japanese lens company (Fuji, which is less well known as lens maker, but not in general). I am not saying that the lenses are worse, but you don't muck with people's religion. Okay, perhaps Zeiss turned them down but it is still Hasselblad's fault. Somehow.


    I have a CF adaptor that allows full AE shooting for all C/CF/CFE and CFi lenses so I guess apart from one or two Zeiss FE type lenses I like I get to use all the Zeiss formulations I choose to. However - as I said before if I dont need autofocus etc - I prefer these lenses on a 200 or 500 series body


    btw Fuji make outstanding lenses - their XPan lenses convinced me of that - talk to photographers who still swear by the large Fuji studio cameras and you will discover that some of these lenses are cherished


    - Drop prices massively with no warning. Anyone who has bought a Hasselblad H3D-39 or 33 recently must feel just shafted, but rudely.


    I bought my H3D11-39 2 months before the massive price drops - so I felt the pain. The camera system is no worse today though in working terms than it was when I bought it


    - And the latest: add optics to a bellows! Why not just release a new lens with sufficient image circle to achieve the same as the 28mm, or even better, release the bellows with a mount to use existing LF lenses, like the Rodenstock or Schneider. Oh, I know, maximize profits. While it is a very clever design, every extra optical element reduces performance, especially when the original optics were not designed with it in mind, which I presume is the case for at least some of the supported lenses. It is like a tele-converter, but in reverse. It may be really good, but it is still worse.

    I am sure a full blown view camera system would do a better job - however the price and lack of portability should also be factored in.
    The proof of quality is in the images that are made - not chat room BS ( I am sure you well understand this) I look forward to the HTS - and hope it serves my purposes well - time will tell.


    So, there you have it: innocent as a lamb. I understand Hasselblad's decision, but they are rather selfish, and I understand the dissatisfied users too.
    I was very upset with Hasselblad for closing their system - till I started to see the benefits delivered. I will never buy a Leaf product again - because they lied about the upgrade path to the AFi - as in FLAT OUT LIES - the Afi / Hy6 was to be my get out of Hasselblad strategy.

    The more I look into the MFD scene - the more I see the companies all have major issues. So I now have stopeed worrying about most of the stuff that people worry about. I am more interested in using the stuff I already have. i wont be upfgrading to another chip from anyone - until perhaps a full frame 6x6 chip arrives even @39 megapixels - the storage regime required is taxing me and my patience.

    I am excited about ordering the CFV11 + 500 + 40CFi kit - that will round out my Hasselblad leaf and focal plane capablities.

    So once everything is sorted I may have a great priced P45+ value added deal with body to sell as well as a complete RZ system to suit. Everyone likes diferent things

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    So much passion about this stuff. Vitriol and counter point.

    Maybe, just maybe, if we all put more of energy and passion being wasted on what color a camera is or whether this or that lens is better than the other, then perhaps the photography would get better ... huh?

    You get and use what you need and works for you ... all the rest is fondler musings or internet chatter ... usually about something people haven't even used themselves ... and all to often from folks using $30,000 MF digital gear to produce aggressively derivative post card images, and leaves on the driveway after it rains.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Taking a bit of artistic license in making your post Marc?
    Where is the 'vitriol' in this thread?

    If people wish to take pics of leaves on driveways with their gear - thats just fine too I think - personally I wish I lived in a climate that actualy produced autumnal colours - one gets tired of desaturated olive green eucalypts

    however - your point re use teh stuff is well made. Personally its about time I started shooting again rather than buying stuffto fondle

    staring at Bloomberg screens oveer teh last year trying to stay on the bucking bronco market - has taken its toll.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    and all to often from folks using $30,000 MF digital gear to produce aggressively derivative post card images,
    Did I hear my name mentioned? () Seriously, sometimes I feel I could do "my work" just as well with a decent cell phone for all the concern clients seem to have over what went into it.

    But back to the topic at hand: The fact is all of the major MF players have their unique benefits to offer --- problem is they all have their list of negatives that go hand in hand. And there is no perfect solution. I think Hassy has designed a very useful tool here, and should be commended. Sure, we'd all love a 24 tilt shift lens that offered 20mm of shift, 20 degrees of tilt and maintained perfect performance from corner to corner. Aint gonna happen in our lifetime though. This device can be used with existing lenses, so offers the advantages of movements across a larger range of focals than any other manufacturer. IF it works well, it may be the incentive that pushes me over the edge from Mamiya to Hassy...

    PS: I get to demo it at my local dealer this Thursday

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  26. #26
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Leaving me in the dust bud. LOL

    Actually the Hassy would be the only system i would switch to presently. Maybe the S2 next year BUT I am getting great images so how much do i want to shoot myself in the head is the question.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Leaving me in the dust bud. LOL

    Actually the Hassy would be the only system i would switch to presently. Maybe the S2 next year BUT I am getting great images so how much do I want to shoot myself in the head is the question.
    I think that is EXACTLY the point Guy. You have what you need to get the job done for what you do. So do I, and so do other people I'm sure.

    But we're not all the same, nor need the same things. If I had a back that could do 1 hour exposures it would never, ever get used. I do not have the need, nor have I ever had the need. Useful to some, useless to me.

    The way business is today, I sure don't want to shoot myself in the head either. The tools I presently have better be good because that's it for the foreseeable future.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Right on brother. My buy finger has been cut off. It all better work because it is not going to change anytime soon. LOL

    Really the bottom line when you look at MF in general is everything and the systems all have some compromise. The trick like anything else in life is what has the least you can live with.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Leaving me in the dust bud. LOL
    On gear??? That's frigging impossible!

    Seriously, not planning to jump ship as I am very, very happy with my current outfit. Doesn't mean I can't lust after a tidbit I like...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Hmmh, so much noise for a simple question that was partially answered
    by myself. That was certainly not my intention.

    Thanks Nick-T for double-confirmation, i placed an order last Saturday and
    might get the chance to test a HTS1.5 over a weekend later this year.

    I'm not sure I'd like to comment on the other stuff, I bought a H3DII-31 kit
    at photokina, I'm grateful they dropped prices since otherwise i would not
    own a MFDB.

    So I'd like to chime in with Marc, lets get back to photography.

    Ralf.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Cubell View Post
    This does put in proper perspective your inaccurate comments about the HTS. [G]
    BTW, which medium format digital back do you use?
    I own a Hasselblad 500C (ancient) and a Contax 645 system, for which I am saving up for a Sinar e54LV. I don't own a digital back at the moment, but the last time I checked, that wasn't necessary for having an opinion

    My Hasselblad comments *are* tongue-in-cheek, but those are the things I have seen people upset about in my travels.

    I should mention that in spite of all the issues, Hasselblad does seem to be the company which has their strategy most firmly in hand, possibly except for Sinar, but Sinar's strategy is very much focused on the larger system aspects, with Hasselblad focused on the HxD MF system only, and maximizing the use of that. In fact, Hasselblad's strategy resembles the DSLR strategy more and more. Make one system do as much as possible, even if not everything is best-of-breed. Actually, maybe the new HTS is more like a modern-day version of Leica's Visoflex! LOL
    Last edited by carstenw; 11th November 2008 at 01:47.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I own a Hasselblad 500C (ancient) and a Contax 645 system, for which I am saving up for a Sinar e54LV. I don't own a digital back at the moment, but the last time I checked, that wasn't necessary for having an opinion

    My Hasselblad comments *are* tongue-in-cheek, but those are the things I have seen people upset about in my travels.

    I should mention that in spite of all the issues, Hasselblad does seem to be the company which has their strategy most firmly in hand, possibly except for Sinar, but Sinar's strategy is very much focused on the larger system aspects, with Hasselblad focused on the HxD MF system only, and maximizing the use of that. In fact, Hasselblad's strategy resembles the DSLR strategy more and more. Make one system do as much as possible, even if not everything is best-of-breed. Actually, maybe the new HTS is more like a modern-day version of Leica's Visoflex! LOL
    I wish I could edit my posts and remove them - all of my posts actually. Good luck and best wishes.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Not because of me, I hope. I am having a good time
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Not because of me, I hope. I am having a good time
    Odd.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Why? Just tell me what is wrong, I cannot guess what you are thinking.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I will never buy a Leaf product again - because they lied about the upgrade path to the AFi - as in FLAT OUT LIES - the Afi / Hy6 was to be my get out of Hasselblad strategy.
    Peter do you have any hard proof of these so called flat out lies? Any written documentation/ ads or quotes from someone at Leaf?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    No communication from Leaf yaya. However 'Leaf' has never 'sold' a back to anyone have they?

    You can PM if you like - happy to take you through the whole sorry saga.

    OR you can 'engage' on the forum - open transparent and public. I am relaxed either way.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Peter hi,

    Would be good if you can shed some light here, If someone told you something about the AFi that did not happen I'd like to know what it was and what could be done on our end to prevent this in the future.

    Many thanks

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Well yaya - I was 'sold' an Aptus 75 because the Afi was only a few months away. I was 'told' that the Aptus would just go on to the Afi. 2 weeks after purchase your 75s was announced. I was told that I would be 'upgraded' at the same time as the Afi arrived for no cost - given the 'unfortunate timing' of my purchase.

    Well I got tired of waiting after a year and half. I got angry that my free upgrade to 75s was no longer free. And I became very angry when informed that hmmm actually you cant use your back on the Afi. Then told that my camera was worth 1/3 of what I paid as a trade on the Afi.

    This summarises a lot of to and fro.

    Very disappointing.

    There is more ..but well- what can I say except for those who wish to purchase these MFD systems - be very very careful who your dealer is.

    Hope this helps yaya.

    Best
    Pete

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Maybe the best solution here is to ask for everything in writing, on official letterhead. I think it is not always possible to know when your dealer is going to flake out, especially since some seem to give mostly good, but occasionally bad, or like here, horrible, service. It is not possible to avoid making promises about the future, but it should be possible to put everything in writing.
    Carsten - Website

  41. #41
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well yaya - I was 'sold' an Aptus 75 because the Afi was only a few months away. I was 'told' that the Aptus would just go on to the Afi. 2 weeks after purchase your 75s was announced. I was told that I would be 'upgraded' at the same time as the Afi arrived for no cost - given the 'unfortunate timing' of my purchase.

    Well I got tired of waiting after a year and half. I got angry that my free upgrade to 75s was no longer free. And I became very angry when informed that hmmm actually you cant use your back on the Afi. Then told that my camera was worth 1/3 of what I paid as a trade on the Afi.

    This summarises a lot of to and fro.

    Very disappointing.

    There is more ..but well- what can I say except for those who wish to purchase these MFD systems - be very very careful who your dealer is.

    Hope this helps yaya.

    Best
    Pete
    Thank you Peter for this info and I am sorry that you were mislead, although it is hard for me to comment on the details as I was not involved.

    What I can say on our part is that when we announced the AFi it was clear to us (and we made it clear to all our dealers, this is well documented) that this was going to be a new back with a new mount.

    Regarding the Aptus 75S; when it was announced (at the same time as the AFi, during Photokina 2006), we did have a solution for those who were keen to be the first to place orders. We took orders for Aptus 75S and we provided (and invoiced for) Aptus 75. Then when the Aptus 75S was available, we swapped the backs and invoiced the difference in price.

    I am assuming that since you bought the Aptus 75 a month before the announcement of the S series, nobody could have given you a "warning" simply because they did not know.

    Of course this is my assumption but we can take this off line and dig deeper...although I have a feeling that this might not be of an interest to you anymore.

    Thanks

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  42. #42
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well yaya - I was 'sold' an Aptus 75 because the Afi was only a few months away. I was 'told' that the Aptus would just go on to the Afi. 2 weeks after purchase your 75s was announced. I was told that I would be 'upgraded' at the same time as the Afi arrived for no cost - given the 'unfortunate timing' of my purchase.

    Well I got tired of waiting after a year and half. I got angry that my free upgrade to 75s was no longer free. And I became very angry when informed that hmmm actually you cant use your back on the Afi. Then told that my camera was worth 1/3 of what I paid as a trade on the Afi.

    This summarises a lot of to and fro.

    Very disappointing.

    There is more ..but well- what can I say except for those who wish to purchase these MFD systems - be very very careful who your dealer is.

    Hope this helps yaya.

    Best
    Pete
    These are words to the wise.

    To clarify a couple things -

    While I worked at PPR, we were told that the AFi would require a dedicated Aptus back, and would not be mountable from a previous generation Aptus. The issue that arose was the cost involved. And dealers knew about this right off, there was never any notion of a free upgrade. But once we saw the upgrade price, we knew the gravy train was over, and this was unexpected.

    Regarding Aptus to Aptus S upgrades, there was never ever any mention of free upgrades there either. But while the Aptus to AFi unpgrade was a steep price, the Aptus to Aptus S upgrade was only $3,000 if ordered within the first 3 months, and then roughly $5,000 for the next 11 months after that.

    With significant market saturation, much of the medium format product sold today is in the form of upgrades, perhaps 60% or higher. With that high a percentage, manufacturers cannot be profitable on the sweetheart deals of the past. And so, upgrade pricing has adapted within the last couple years to allow a more realistic profit to be made. Think about it. You trade in an Aptus 75S, and you would like to upgrade to an Aptus 10 for oh, say $5,000. Then Leaf owns the Aptus 75S, which has a street value of around $18k - $22K (just as an example). So, $22K plus $5K, how is Leaf going to make a profit selling a product which is $39K?

    I have read multiple times of "my dealer promised that.......etc".

    Any time you as a customer are holding your breath on a "promise" that is related to a yet un-released product or advancement, you should be very careful. For that matter, "promises" can be extracted from (for example), "I believe we are working on upgrading our sensitivity on the current lineup, I've heard 1 to 2 months out, but not sure". This type of statement from a dealer, or even a manufacturer can be miconstrued as a "promise", or a broken promise when said event does not materialize. And some dealers (and yes, also manufacturers) can be over-zealous in their enthusiasm for the as yet un-delivered mention.

    On the other hand, if a dealer mentions any kind of promise as a done deal, hard fact, you should be very considerate of the source.

    A promise is kind of a solemn committment to do something you say. A dealer cannot promise anything that a manufacturer will do. And even at the manufacturing level, with technology like this, developmental intentions can run into un-foreseen alteration or even tragedy.

    It is best to remember that promises are only made on the future, not the present or past, and the future is not guaranteed.

    It also might be a good idea that anytime anyone promises something, get it in writing with a condition on what happens if the promise is not met. I think you will see a reduction in the amount of promises with this policy...


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

  43. #43
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Well said Steve . In this regards and on the same vein and being in business so long i don't believe a client actually paid me until the check actually cleared the bank. LOL

    But seriously even on the posted prices that float around on the forums from any of the dealers. i truly don't believe any of it but as a good estimate again i don't consider anything fact until someone actually says write the check exactly for this amount. I don't mean any of this as a dig but far to often prices go up or special pricing may have been implemented since these prices are known on the forums and folks may add warranties , add to the order or delete certain things from the posted prices. Work closely with your dealers and get as many facts as you can and get pricing and upgrades as clearly as you listen to them and in writing if needed or better yet ask for a quote that is good for 30 days. And please not meant to inflame anyone but treat this stuff as estimations until it is very clear on what is coming or what you are really buying. Even get a quote from another dealer, like most things these days get 3 bids on what you want.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Yes - thanks for that realy good advice - much appreaciated I come away from the experience a much enlightened person.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    I demo'd the HTS yesterday and I must admit, it's an impressive accessory. Small, and well-designed to allow +/- Tilt and Rise/Fall in the same axis, then rotate through 90 degrees so you can effect any combo of Swings and Shifts too. However, you cannot separate the axis of these movements, so swings/tilts and rise/fall/shift will always be co-axial. In that, it is not going to be as fully flexible as a view camera, but certainly offers most of the schleimpflug advantages. Current local retail price was $5400 US.
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I demo'd the HTS yesterday and I must admit, it's an impressive accessory. Small, and well-designed to allow +/- Tilt and Rise/Fall in the same axis, then rotate through 90 degrees so you can effect any combo of Swings and Shifts too. However, you cannot separate the axis of these movements, so swings/tilts and rise/fall/shift will always be co-axial. In that, it is not going to be as fully flexible as a view camera, but certainly offers most of the schleimpflug advantages. Current local retail price was $5400 US.
    Isn't it nice?

    On a related note Capture Integration is becoming the US distributor for Silvestri which will only add to the already dizzying array of wide angle and tilt-shift options. Especially the FlexiCam will pique some interest. We'll be posting more info once we've complete our testing. I know we are also looking for an immediate home for some of the inventory required to become the distributor.

    The great part is I think each of these tools has a set of users for which it is the best solution. Each has a different combination of flexibility, IQ, and price.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Isn't it nice?
    Yes it is, but not enough so to make me want to switch systems... But I never say never!

    ,
    Jack
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    I used the Silvestri SLV for a time a few years ago. Well machined and designed system. I only sold it when my first born arrived and I decided to sell off my less used systems. Having kids really impacted my ability to feed my gear addiction.

  49. #49
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by smhoer View Post
    Having kids really impacted my ability to feed my gear addiction.
    Okay, can't resist screaming: UNDERSTATEMENT!

    (And just wait until they hit college!)

    Jack
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    Re: Question about Hasselblad HTS 1.5

    College? I am still in shock on the cost of soccer camp! Seriously though. I used to be able to afford multiple systems for different purposes. My favorite kits were 35mm for wildlife, P67 for landscape and Lihof 617 for pans. Now I am looking to get one system versatile enough to cover all my landscape needs. Still deciding between a used p45/AFD body, Mamiya l28 pkg or even the H3DII (the high cost/size of lenses puts it last). Our company just announced our earnings this week. They were high enough my bonus kicked in so I will be getting one or the other late Dec or early Jan. Unless of course soccer camp rates go up.

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