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Thread: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    After all that we went through, I feel that M8 owners should be exempt from this kind of statistical problems
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Not likely , we have been cursed Carsten for life.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    I thought you early M8 users had signed on to be the beta testers for all formats and all brands, so that the rest of us remain free of such inconveniences! That's how I understood it anyway.


    Oh, and thanks for that!

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Hey i have done MY share of that stuff. Canon 1ds Mark II, DMR and the M8 first out of the gate. Paid my dues and have the T-shirt with gold letters to prove it ( Big letters " Simply Crazy". Actually though I have to say the day i tested the phase backs it took two minutes to get going, figuring out the DOF thing took a little longer. But the damn thing worked.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Guy, I've been unbelievably fortunate with the Phase product as well. There's a learning curve to the DoF aspect, plus C-1 is new to me, but the back just works. And it requires no reading to get up and running IMO. Easy menus, etc.

    It's a drag that Tim has likely found a bad lens. Hopefully that will be a rare occurrence.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post

    I (we, as a group actually) really do understand your frustration. It's almost heart-breaking to agonize over a system (or any item) that is this costly and then end up with the rare fluke that doesn't perform.
    Thanks Dale,

    But didn't I mention that I have an M8? In fact I've had three, plus many many lenses... and I practically had fedex frequent flier miles at one point!

    I don't think manufacturers should sell to me lightly though. All gear over a certain price point gets tested rigourously up-front ever since I discovered and posted the issue of focus shift with certain M lenses on the M8... so not sure whether it's me that's unlucky or the manufacturer!

    About the lottery: surely, as you purchase the ticket, you should focus your mind on how winning would ruin your life....

    ;-)
    t

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    After all that we went through, I feel that M8 owners should be exempt from this kind of statistical problems
    Hear hear!

    However we clearly have the Mark of Cain on us... as it says on the forum header, abandon all hope ye who enter here...

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Jack and Guy,
    So these are the lenses that shattered the "myth of Zeiss?" :lol:

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Dale,

    But didn't I mention that I have an M8? In fact I've had three, plus many many lenses... and I practically had fedex frequent flier miles at one point!

    I don't think manufacturers should sell to me lightly though. All gear over a certain price point gets tested rigourously up-front ever since I discovered and posted the issue of focus shift with certain M lenses on the M8... so not sure whether it's me that's unlucky or the manufacturer!

    About the lottery: surely, as you purchase the ticket, you should focus your mind on how winning would ruin your life....

    ;-)
    t
    Tim

    I so remember your travails with the 35 Lux. I had one which worked perfectly and to prove what a butthead I am I sold it to Peter A who dropped it on concrete and now it is history.

    I am also one who recently got in to the MFDB world. I bought the H3DII-39 about two weeks before Hasselblad announced the price cuts. While I am happy for the greater good that entails it sure felt bad to buy a system for almost $30K and watch it tank $10K in two weeks. In the end it probably doesn't matter so long as I keep and use the system. I recently had some serious surgery on my right thumb which may prove to make shooting with a large heavy body problematic. As a matter of fact even the Nikon D3 is problematic right now. Got to get the cast off and get to the gym and start some serious rehab.

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Tim

    I so remember your travails with the 35 Lux. I had one which worked perfectly and to prove what a butthead I am I sold it to Peter A who dropped it on concrete and now it is history.

    I am also one who recently got in to the MFDB world. I bought the H3DII-39 about two weeks before Hasselblad announced the price cuts. While I am happy for the greater good that entails it sure felt bad to buy a system for almost $30K and watch it tank $10K in two weeks. In the end it probably doesn't matter so long as I keep and use the system. I recently had some serious surgery on my right thumb which may prove to make shooting with a large heavy body problematic. As a matter of fact even the Nikon D3 is problematic right now. Got to get the cast off and get to the gym and start some serious rehab.

    Best

    Woody
    Good luck with your rehab Woody. On a brighter note - I sent the 35 to solms to see what they coudl do. They actually fixed it and it is as good as new. Only cost me $500 !!

    Cheers
    Pete

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    I've got a chrome 35 Lux ASPH with almost no focus shift, but somehow the entire front section (from the focusing ring and forwards) worked its way loose during an Italy trip, so I had to send it back to Leica for repairs, which ended up costing about 280 Euro. I have not had a chance to check if for focus shift yet, but will do so soon. Hopefully it stayed a good copy...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    80mm f/2.8 D P45+ samples at 2.8.
    I went shooting around Napa with Jack today and found this nifty old wall which reminded me of this thread.
    These have been processed with default C1 sharpening, and then sliced to make the 100% crops. Results of the omitted corners were similar so in sloth I didn't bother posting.
    First the full image at f/2.8
    Attachment 9093
    100% Center crop
    Attachment 9094
    100% Upper right corner
    Attachment 9095
    100% Lower left corner
    Attachment 9096
    -bob

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Wonderful Pete

    Makes my day.

    I'll buy it back from you for $500! LOL

    Woody

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    80mm D f/2.8 demonstration, continued
    Now for tthe same lens and subject at f/5.6
    Whole image
    Attachment 9097
    Upper right
    Attachment 9098
    Center
    Attachment 9099
    Lower Left
    Attachment 9100

    I noted that corner light falloff was reduced markedly as the lens stopped down. The corners sharped up some as well.
    I think these results were better than what was observed in the brick wall test.
    -bob

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Bob, big difference between f/2.8 and f/5.6 here IMO. Great subject to shoot for this discussion. I shot the shots at f/5.6 because I had it in my mind that Tim had specified that aperture as part of his process. I may have mis-read that. Perhaps I should have included some f/2.8 files as well.

    In any case, your samples look great, and hopefully they will help Tim in getting immediate resolution to his issues.

    (It's cool that you and Jack hooked up in Napa this week. Hope you're having a great time.)

    Edit to add: It looks like your 80mm exhibits less barrel distortion than mine, but we should probably compare at similar distance to subject, etc. to be certain.

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Dale,
    After his posting, I just had to try my sample. Yes there is a big difference between 2.8 and 5.6, but 2.8 is still pretty usable. I normally use this lens at f/8-f/11 and occasionally at f/16.

    Jack and I had a great time running around Napa valley looking for targets of opportunity. Of course we had to concentrate on lunch, and tried out Buchon in Yountville. I introduced Jack to the simple pleasure of a bone dry Hendricks martini. After that, steak frits, cheese, and a bottle of wine, we were well prepared for the rest of the afternoon.
    -bob

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Sounds great... if a bit selfish! I'm only a 90 minutes or so away! Guess I missed your call.

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Dale,
    If I had only known.
    Where is California/Thailand? Near the Dumbarton Bridge?
    -bob

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    That's right, Bob. Just a little past there and then veer right.


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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    In a conversation with Thierry, he mentioned the possibility of sensor misalignment, rather than lens problems. He thought that with very bad results all over the frame like this, the sensor might be more likely to be at fault than the lens. Something to look into, perhaps by trying other lenses.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    80mm D f/2.8 demonstration, continued
    Now for tthe same lens and subject at f/5.6
    Whole image

    -bob
    Bob, thank you in the extreme for the time you took to do this: to me it definitively shows that either your lens or your technique is significantly better than mine! Seriously, your corners at both those apertures are notably better than mine and this helps me abandon any last vestige of fear of hypochondria!

    Best

    T

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Dale,
    After his posting, I just had to try my sample. Yes there is a big difference between 2.8 and 5.6, but 2.8 is still pretty usable. I normally use this lens at f/8-f/11 and occasionally at f/16.

    Jack and I had a great time running around Napa valley looking for targets of opportunity. Of course we had to concentrate on lunch, and tried out Buchon in Yountville. I introduced Jack to the simple pleasure of a bone dry Hendricks martini. After that, steak frits, cheese, and a bottle of wine, we were well prepared for the rest of the afternoon.
    -bob
    My that sounds good. Yum yum...

    Great opportunity for photos in California today: I understand there's earth quake practice on a huge scale?

    T

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    In a conversation with Thierry, he mentioned the possibility of sensor misalignment, rather than lens problems. He thought that with very bad results all over the frame like this, the sensor might be more likely to be at fault than the lens. Something to look into, perhaps by trying other lenses.
    I'd wondered about that but it seemed to me that if it were the case, there'd likely be one or two corners sharper than the others and in all my tests so far they look similarly soft. I guess theoretically I could have a persistent bias towards orientating the camera at a slight skew to the image plane and that might be consistently correcting for any sensor skew...
    :sleep006:

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    I tend to doubt the sensor is off but of course there is a remote chance in that. Only real way to test that is with more lenses and see if there is a pattern somewhere in the files. I lean much more on the lens as the issue.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Yeah, hard to know, but definitely something worth checking out. Testing a known good lens will show what is up with the back, if anything. Tim, it could be simply at the wrong distance, lending a softness to the entire image. It doesn't have to be tilted.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Yeah, hard to know, but definitely something worth checking out. Testing a known good lens will show what is up with the back, if anything. Tim, it could be simply at the wrong distance, lending a softness to the entire image. It doesn't have to be tilted.
    Hi Carsten,

    Not sure I understand you there... if the sensor is parallel to the image plane (or close to) and the focus is correct, what 'wrong distance' do you refer to?

    Best

    T

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Bob, thank you in the extreme for the time you took to do this: to me it definitively shows that either your lens or your technique is significantly better than mine! Seriously, your corners at both those apertures are notably better than mine and this helps me abandon any last vestige of fear of hypochondria!

    Best

    T
    Tim,
    No trouble,
    I didn't use much technique at all, tripod, mup, 3 sec self timer, auto focus.
    No matter the cause, you CAN to get sharper results.
    -bob

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    A few more with the 80, along with crops. Not tests per se, just images FWIW...

    First was this private driveway (yeah, life sucks for some eh?). FWIW, there is so much fine detail in this file that downrezzing it is almost impossible to do without leaving it looking like crap as it does here. I didn't spend a huge amount of time trying though, because the main point is the crop:



    Focus point is about 1/3 way in or about at the red grape leaves on the right edge of this crop. This is the 80 at f16, note the telephone lines in the background. Here we are seeing the beginning effect of diffraction, but IMO not horrible for the DoF gained over f11, so I use f16 - f22 when added DoF is needed:



    ~~~

    Next is a funky building we came across. Looks like a mini grain-elevator/livestock-barn so maybe it was a small dairy? Anyway, this one is the 80 at f11:



    The jaggies on the insulators are in the original tiff too, but worse here in the jpeg, accentuated and more of them:



    ~~~

    Bottom line is a few observations:

    1) I don't think the 80 should suck -- if it does, return it for a replacement.

    2) Processing these high-rez MF files for web is difficult! First off, 8-bit sRGB color is doing them no favors -- a *bunch* of the best color gets lost (especially high yellows and reds) with the web conversion. Next is the amount of jpeg compression needed to keep them under 400K (so they load fast) is significantly more than what I ever had to do with the typical DSLR file -- Normally, 80% jpeg was fine for up to a 900x1200, but some of these are down to jpeg 50% to get them under 400K for a 750x900... Lastly, I definitely need a new/better downrezzing routine to try and keep the file looking "right" --- off to work on that now .
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    A few more with the 80, along with crops. Not tests per se, just images FWIW...
    Thanks Jack - yet more very kindly provided evidence that my 80 sucks!

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