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P45+ back, body & lens kit: learning curve thread.

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Tim here is one at F14 and the reason I am showing it is look how fast the DOF falls off maybe even 3 ft past the people. Now it is sharper than i can possible tell you on them but see how fast the DOF just goes very quickly and this is at F14 about maybe 10 ft away from them. Now 35mm would certainly go a lot further with F14 and DOF. This is the part of MF that gets some getting used too and was hard for me when i got mine .I was shooting at 5.6 wondering the same thing you are
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now the same token across the street at F16 1/8 on a ladder with the 80mm about 150 feet away all is in the DOF range. So distance plays a big role as well as you know
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Last one just to show the falloff. Here the 150mm at F11 and look how fast the DOF just goes out very fast. So when testing keep this stuff in mind
 

Dale Allyn

New member
You folks have covered lots of good points here, and I also agree with Justin's comments regarding how the "tests" relate to the photo making process.

Case in point: I bought the Mamiya 35mm lens, knowing that it would be a bit soft in the corners. When it arrived I wanted to see just how soft so I went to my driveway, set up tripod, leveled and paralleled everything, and shot my garage door as well as my brick wall. Well, I wanted to vomit. The corners were soft (as promised) and the barrel distortion was much more than I expected (and had not read anyone comment on). Now I'm not saying my 35mm lens is a bad copy, 'cuz it isn't. I just hoped that the reports would be a bit harsh instead of simply fair, as they were fair.

I took the 35mm lens to the American River the next day and shot some scenes that included rocks and boulders in the corners, processed them for printing, and the images are great for prints to just about any size I'd like. This is by far the softest of all of my Mamiya lenses, and in most shots the corners are useable for large prints if I get the rest right. I'd love it to be better, but it's serviceable.

My 80mm is sharper, for sure, (all of my lenses are), but my brick wall or garage door tests always disappoint me. In fact, I have never done a lens test, other than with macro lenses, that have left me feeling good. I now only do cursory test of lenses (especially since the 35mm) and then go and shoot various subjects to see how the lens works real-world.

In practical application (for landscape type work) I find the biggest hurdle with MFDB is getting the DoF right (deep enough). In my shots I come up against DoF issues long before I hit lens issues.

I hope that Tim find's the source of the problem and fixes it to his satisfaction. Like others have suggested, I would likely ask to compare another copy of the 80mm.

Best,

Dale
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Dale you know in C1 they have corner softness control and lens distortion control for the 35mm now and it works a charm.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Yes, Guy, thanks. I'm looking forward to using it. I've not upgraded to 4.5.x yet. The new updates (and issues) were being wrung out while I was traveling and I've just recently returned to the States. I need to upgrade my Mac to take advantage of the new version and haven't had time to address the whole thing yet.

edit: I guess I could install the new version on my laptop, but I don't do my editing there.
 
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Dale Allyn

New member
I'm looking forward to it, for sure. It's okay now, but I do shoot with it's strengths and weakness in mind. The lens correction in C-1 should make the process less limiting for me.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
To follow-up in hopes of adding a data point for Tim: I just shot my 80mm @ f/5.6, f/8.0, f/11.0 to be sure that I had not assumed my 80 was better than it is. The subject is my back fence (wooden) with an old European lav. fixture hanging and surrounded by ivy. Wind was calm, light soft, etc. The lens is sharp to the corners – sharp enough for good printing, though I can't say how it would appear to you, Tim. There's a bit of a funky loss of contrast in the upper right-hand corner possibly due to some flare as we have some fog here and the light was changing as the fog was floating and sunlight was peaking from that direction.

Shot from about 3.3 meters, mirror up, timer (too lazy to get my cable release). The 80mm is the older, and supposedly inferior, version of the lens. The back is the P25+. If you'd like the RAW files for comparison I'll be happy to arrange that for you. I should be able to zip them and make them available via ftp. Perhaps this would offer a theoretical "worse-case" point of reference.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
One think that hit me pretty hard when moving to a P45+ back was the diffraction limit.
Now I have o warn you that I am a pixel peeper, so in general I am not happy with sharpness unless it looks very sharp at 1:1.
What I found was that a 39Mpix back is still diffraction limited at f/11 or so when pixel peeping. So when I tried to compensate for the MF:M8 DOF loss (more like three stops actually) by stopping down, I hit the Airy disk fuzzies. On the other hand, a print equivalent of 60 inches wide seemed very sharp at a one meter viewing distance. I am slowly learning to not evaluate my sharpness at 100-200% anymore, rather to scale it more reasonably based on the intended image use. It seems that for the sharpest possible images, I will need to shoot at f/8 and live with the DOF results, or stop down more and live with th diffraction softness.
-bob
 

Dale Allyn

New member
The upload took too long to add a download link by editing the above message, so I'm adding it here. I didn't bother to style the web page, so forgive the barren look of the page.

http://www.daleallynphoto.com/getdpi/

Click the link labeled P25+_test_80mm to download the files. FYI: the .zip is about 80 MB.

HTH
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Bob, those are good comments. I have really struggled with this topic (the subject of your post) to the point of questioning the tools for what I want to do. I'm still struggling with it. Still, as one who shoots with output to print as the goal, I have had to adjust my evaluation process. Viewing prints in normal settings is proving more rewarding than pixel peeping for me. I'm not saying that pixel peeping MFDB has no rewards, but that my expectations were (are?) at times unrealistic, as well as not necessary to achieve my goals.

All that said, I think that I will eventually look to a camera that offers some movements to address the issues of DoF and diffraction.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Just a FWIW comment for you to try out. If you print, and are curious as to how the print will look on close inspection, try viewing your print-sized image onscreen at 50%. While I realize this is not the same magnification as viewing at print size, for whatever reason I find it generates a very good screen-approximation of how the final print will look on detail, focus, DoF, and even anomalies like CA included...
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Jack, I agree. I check all of my images for print output at 50%. Something about the way the screen displays the image seems most accurate at 50% for estimating print results.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Once again I buy a nice 3800 Epson and have not even gotten through the first tank full of ink. I just don't print often , maybe i should sell the darn thing. But I do agree 50 percent seems like the sweet spot on screen
 

Dale Allyn

New member
@Tim (et al): I have now uploaded two more RAW files taken with the non-D 80mm and P25+. In this case the wonderful image is of a brick barbecue complete with a few spider webs and peeling, failed masonry sealant. Same set up: camera level, tripod, mirror up, timer. No weird flare this time. I would think that if your samples are coming out worse than this then you might have alignment lens issue or other defect to look into.

It's not that I felt you really needed these (especially since it's the 80mm version prior to yours), but I guess I'm not in the mood to do real work today. ;)

Oh, and please don't show these last two files to my wife 'cuz I don't want to spend the next two days fixing the barbecue. I promise to have it all cleaned up by the time y'all come by for steak, shrimp and halibut. :D

Same link: http://www.daleallynphoto.com/getdpi/
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Notwithstanding all of the above, I am keen to find out if my lens is a dud or whether my expectations of it are just too high; so here are the wall shots.

A few words first:

1) A wall shot IS real world. It is not MTF charts in a lab, it's the sort of subject matter that crops up in many situations - it's about 13-15 feet away, it has detail, it is more or less planar. It might be the trunk of a tree, a stone or rock surface, a person on the periphery of a shot, whatever. If a wall is soft in the corners when it should be sharp then so too will those things be.

2) About DOF. I do understand this. I have been shooting with a 4 x 5 field camera this year, amongst other things. I would also add that in my understanding (and Carsten might well correct me here) as long as the wall and the sensor are parallel then the test is fine except for the fact that clearly the edges of the frame are further away than the centre of the frame. At a distance of 15 feet and f2.8 I would intuitively expect about an eighteen inch DOF. My rudimentary calculations indicate that the distance by which the corner is further away than the the centre might well take the corners out of the DOF range and that might explain the effect. In other words, were I to set up the sensor at the dead centre of a sphere printed with a wall pattern and take the same shots again, I might get sharp to the corners. On the other hand, maybe lens designers correct for that sort of thing?

3) About the 'view on screen at 50%' idea: I know a lot of people buy it but I don't. On my 30" Apple Cinema display, that equates to the same physical size as a print of 36x27" - in other words just a little larger than I can print on my Z3100. A 32x24" print from a full frame of these wall shots clearly show edge softness. I have only printed the f5.6 version but the effect is there without a doubt, at normal viewing distance. I have shots from a Canon 1DS III taken with primes and even zooms that are sharp to the corners at mid apertures at this print size (though I can't do an exact comparative test cos I sold the Canon, perhaps too soon!). The reason I sold the Canon was so I could make bigger prints - up to 50" wide, which I thought I would be able to do with this P1 kit.

4) SO: do I have a dodgy lens, or is this performance just what 'goes with the territory'? If it does go with the territory, is there a sweet spot of aperture where I get sharp corners without handing back overall sharpness to diffraction effects?

Answers on a (sharply printed) postcard please!


First, the scene and two centre crops and two edge crops; next post, more edges at a range of apertures. All processed at defaults in LR with minor exposure adjustments to match the changing light. The centre crops are not exactly centre (they're to the immediate left of the window).

View attachment 9062
View attachment 9063
View attachment 9064
View attachment 9065
View attachment 9066
 
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Bob

Administrator
Staff member
:thumbdown:
Dud or something.
Those look real bad. Mine is a LOT better than that, ...no that is not strong enough.
Even the center is way not sharp.
This is not a little bit, this a whole lot bad!
Was this AF?
I wonder if it is a bit front focused. Are the window bars sharper than the center bricks?
I see that this was taken at 1/250, but was it set on a tripod? (should not matter this much)
-bob
 
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tashley

Subscriber Member
@Tim (et al): I have now uploaded two more RAW files taken with the non-D 80mm and P25+. In this case the wonderful image is of a brick barbecue complete with a few spider webs and peeling, failed masonry sealant. Same set up: camera level, tripod, mirror up, timer. No weird flare this time. I would think that if your samples are coming out worse than this then you might have alignment lens issue or other defect to look into.

It's not that I felt you really needed these (especially since it's the 80mm version prior to yours), but I guess I'm not in the mood to do real work today. ;)

Oh, and please don't show these last two files to my wife 'cuz I don't want to spend the next two days fixing the barbecue. I promise to have it all cleaned up by the time y'all come by for steak, shrimp and halibut. :D

Same link: http://www.daleallynphoto.com/getdpi/
Dayle, thank you for that: it is genuinely useful. If my lens was giving results that sharp at those apertures I would not think of questioning it!

I know yours is the previous lens and that the sensors are different but you do have very good corner sharpness - and I clearly don't!

Thanks for taking the time to post these.

Tim
 
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