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Mamiya 7 with Adox CMS20 compared with ...

timparkin

Member
Mamiya 7 with Adox CMS20 compared with IQ180, 4x5, Nikon D3X, 4x5 and 10x8

Interestingly the Mamiya 7 outresolves the 4x5 with Delta 100 and far surpasses the IQ180 in terms of raw resolution.

I'm getting a hires drum scan of this soon to see how much can be got out of a scan.

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cms20-vs.jpg

The film can display quite a smooth tonal range with Adotech II developer..

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/scans/cms20-full.jpg

Overall this film is incredible. Almost zero grain even at 60x enlargement through a microscope. The most amazing aspect is the anti-halation performance - this gives results which are very clinical with an edge precision more like digital than film.

I'll also be making a pictorial comparison soon.

Tim
 

timparkin

Member
p.s. We also tested it against a Nikon D800 and D800E which it trounced quite well. However, it's interesting that a scan done on an Epson V750 matched the D800E so good results are accessible.
 

Anders_HK

Member
Tim,

Dangerous temptation! Adding film again will make me spend more $$$. My mind go film, film back, lab, scanner,,, That said film indeed remain a very competent and aesthetic pleasing media. After Velvia 50 gone perhaps B&W with Adox CMS20 is valid choice? :)

Just out of curiosity Do you have any idea how good 4x5 Adox CMS20 would scan on a modern regular computer scanner? Makes me think if worthwhile to try some 4x5 sheets for aesthetics... All need do is add a film holder or two to my Shen Hao... due Quickloads long gone...

What is DR/ exposure latitude above and below mid tone of Adox CMS20 if say processed at a commercial lab? Is it ok to have processed as normal B&W film at a commercial lab or would other B&W film be wise choice?

Thanks!

Best regards
Anders
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
That film has been on my shopping list for a while, both for the GX680 and the F6. Thank you for the reminder.

If I remember correctly, Zeiss has been using CMS20 for testing lenses, at least a couple of years back.
 

timparkin

Member
Tim,

Dangerous temptation! Adding film again will make me spend more $$$. My mind go film, film back, lab, scanner,,, That said film indeed remain a very competent and aesthetic pleasing media. After Velvia 50 gone perhaps B&W with Adox CMS20 is valid choice? :)
I think it's a great choice for 35mm and arguably good for medium format. Everything is predicated on the ability to get the results out of it.

However, the cost of a 12,000 dpi scanner is a lot less than the cost of a medium format back and you don't have to scan everything at that resolution. I could get myself a 5000dpi scaner for a grand and then save up for a 12,000dpi scanner for a bout £5 or 6k. The great thing about film is that the resolution is always there - you can scan it later when you have more money (or send the occasional one off if you need to exhibit at silly sizes..).

As for replacing Velvia - I have about 1500 sheets of Velvia plus various other E6 (a few hundred E100G for instance) so that takes care of transparency for a bit. I'll also stock up on a bit of Portra.

That said - I'll probably shoot some CMS20 alongside it to make the stocks stretch a bit further


Just out of curiosity Do you have any idea how good 4x5 Adox CMS20 would scan on a modern regular computer scanner? Makes me think if worthwhile to try some 4x5 sheets for aesthetics... All need do is add a film holder or two to my Shen Hao... due Quickloads long gone...
It should scan pretty well. I would expect to get results that compared with higher end medium format backs?

What is DR/ exposure latitude above and below mid tone of Adox CMS20 if say processed at a commercial lab? Is it ok to have processed as normal B&W film at a commercial lab or would other B&W film be wise choice?
You can't send it off to be processed as to get the best pictorial results you need to use the Adotech II developer. That said it's damned easy to use.

Exposure latitude looks reduced in comparison to usual black and white - probably similar to Provia - perhaps a little more. I shall have to test as I plan to use it more.

Tim
 

timparkin

Member
That film has been on my shopping list for a while, both for the GX680 and the F6. Thank you for the reminder.

If I remember correctly, Zeiss has been using CMS20 for testing lenses, at least a couple of years back.
Yes I think they use it instead of Gigabit film? Can't remember for sure though.

I know that people have said they managed 200 lines per mm using a Nikon F6 and 50mm lens..

Zeiss reckon even more but although I do believe them, it stretches credulity

Tim
 

Anders_HK

Member
Tim,

I use 80MP Leaf back. Serious tempting to buy some B&W 4x5 and shoot in my Shen-Hao. Any recommendation what can be processed at most labs and still yield high quality after scanned on a regular scanner even? Looking for low cost but yet quality to make it at all worthwhile. Appreciate your frank recommendation.

Anders
 

timparkin

Member
Tim,

I use 80MP Leaf back. Serious tempting to buy some B&W 4x5 and shoot in my Shen-Hao. Any recommendation what can be processed at most labs and still yield high quality after scanned on a regular scanner even? Looking for low cost but yet quality to make it at all worthwhile. Appreciate your frank recommendation.

Anders
Hmm - Can't say for sure. I'll ask my sharpness consultant (Henning Serger).

My guess would be T-Max or Acros? I know you can't develop Agfa Copex Rapid, Adox CMS 20 or Rollei Ortho in standard developer and keep pictorial grain.

If you're in the UK/EU you could always send it to me in order to try it

Tim
 

EH21

Member
This is interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing Tim.
Can you tell me the lenses used for the Mamiya 7 and IQ180?
 

Professional

Active member
I hope to fix my Mamiya 7II first, and buy another lens, and then getting a drum scanner then i will be very happy to shoot with film for long long time, now after 1 year of testing film i don't feel it is worthy over digital for what i do, without a drum scanner or dedicated film scanner it will not give me much better results over digital, it is not only about printing large, but also about doing the job just right, and only a drum scanner then a film scanner can resolve higher resolution out of the film.

Thanks for the test, hope it will give a better idea for some newbie like me about film.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Is the CMS 20 difficult to get right when developing? I seem to remember that Foto Impex in Berlin claimed it was only recommended for those with experience.
 

Anders_HK

Member
Thanks ;
My guess would be T-Max or Acros?
I assume optimum use should be to expose for the shadows and printing for the highlights? Assumably scanning will be for highlights then? How much latitude above and below mid tone do they offer?

Would Ilford Delta 100 be another alternative?

Much thanks.

Best regards,
Anders
 

timparkin

Member
This is interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing Tim.
Can you tell me the lenses used for the Mamiya 7 and IQ180?
The lens on the IQ180 was the Rodenstock 40 Digaron - the IQ180 was rendering at least 50% contrast at one line per pixel.

The Mamiya 7 had the 50mm lens at f/8
 

timparkin

Member
after 1 year of testing film i don't feel it is worthy over digital for what i do, without a drum scanner or dedicated film scanner it will not give me much better results over digital, it is not only about printing large, but also about doing the job just right, and only a drum scanner then a film scanner can resolve higher resolution out of the film.
Agreed up to a point - With LF and a desktop I can get more resolution than the IQ180 with black and white so there is the main advantage. However with drum scanners available for a couple of thousand dollars and not being beyond the skills of anyone who might want to operate an MFDB ....

If you don't mind waiting around for a bit, scanners come up at ridiculous prices. I recently saw a serviced Fuji Lanovia with all software go for less than £100. They do take up space but boy are they worth it (the Lanovia is a good 5000dpi desktop PMT scanner)


Is the CMS 20 difficult to get right when developing? I seem to remember that Foto Impex in Berlin claimed it was only recommended for those with experience.
It's fussy for sure but with distilled water and care in handling it shouldn't cause a problem. I'll let you know once I've done some more though


Thanks ;

I assume optimum use should be to expose for the shadows and printing for the highlights? Assumably scanning will be for highlights then? How much latitude above and below mid tone do they offer?
I don't really know the answer to that one - I'll have a dig out of the compartive shots on other cameras and see what they give. But yes, expose for the shadows seems very wise.

Would Ilford Delta 100 be another alternative?
No comparison really - it has probably twice the usable clean resolution.

Tim
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
It's fussy for sure but with distilled water and care in handling it shouldn't cause a problem. I'll let you know once I've done some more though

Tim
That's much appreciated. I would hate to screw up on potentially good photos, and sending the film back and forth across the world to have it processed in Berlin is neither cheap nor convenient.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Tim,

I use 80MP Leaf back. Serious tempting to buy some B&W 4x5 and shoot in my Shen-Hao. Any recommendation what can be processed at most labs and still yield high quality after scanned on a regular scanner even? Looking for low cost but yet quality to make it at all worthwhile. Appreciate your frank recommendation.

Anders
I use Acros with the GX680 at the moment. Great film but my reasons for using it are partly because it's relatively cheap and partly because it's kind of fast at ISO 100. I found Delta 100 a bit "boring", but that was on 35mm. Larger formats might change that.

My favourite of the "normal" films is Ilford Pan F Plus 50. It's slow and expensive, but I love the robustness and the "punch" I get out of it. Still only used it in 35mm, but looking forward to make a splash with medium format as well.
 

Professional

Active member
Agreed up to a point - With LF and a desktop I can get more resolution than the IQ180 with black and white so there is the main advantage. However with drum scanners available for a couple of thousand dollars and not being beyond the skills of anyone who might want to operate an MFDB ....

If you don't mind waiting around for a bit, scanners come up at ridiculous prices. I recently saw a serviced Fuji Lanovia with all software go for less than £100. They do take up space but boy are they worth it (the Lanovia is a good 5000dpi desktop PMT scanner)


Tim
Well, i can wait for long years, i just started film so i can wait for 3-4 or even 5 years, but i hope i can find some available used drum scanner at reasonable prices, otherwise if many shooters going film side then i may not find any drum scanner available in the market.

Well, i agree about LF, but i shoot mostly with MF, and some LF films are gone which will shrinking the options with LF, i really love the resolution of 4x5 sheet out of my V750 over 6x7/6x9 rolls, so i can be happy with LF scanned with my flatbed, but if i keep shooting MF more and maybe one day i may add 35mm or modify my Mamiya 7II to use 35mm then my V750 is just not on par for that, so i may loose the interest with MF and in my situation i can't use LF much a lot outdoors and indoor i may not keep using it much, so i think if i will get a drum scanner and then scan both MF and LF and blown away of resolution only by then i may give film 90% of use and maybe more.
 

timparkin

Member
Well, i can wait for long years, i just started film so i can wait for 3-4 or even 5 years, but i hope i can find some available used drum scanner at reasonable prices, otherwise if many shooters going film side then i may not find any drum scanner available in the market.

Well, i agree about LF, but i shoot mostly with MF, and some LF films are gone which will shrinking the options with LF, i really love the resolution of 4x5 sheet out of my V750 over 6x7/6x9 rolls, so i can be happy with LF scanned with my flatbed, but if i keep shooting MF more and maybe one day i may add 35mm or modify my Mamiya 7II to use 35mm then my V750 is just not on par for that, so i may loose the interest with MF and in my situation i can't use LF much a lot outdoors and indoor i may not keep using it much, so i think if i will get a drum scanner and then scan both MF and LF and blown away of resolution only by then i may give film 90% of use and maybe more.
Well there is the Nikon medium format scanners which are almost as good as a drum scanner and there is also the new Optikfilm from Plustek which looks very interesting indeed. Just hoping it lives up to expectations which would possibly make it a good high resolution alternative to a drum scanner (potentially higher resolution than low end drum scanners but without the clarity etc).

Tim
 

Professional

Active member
Well there is the Nikon medium format scanners which are almost as good as a drum scanner and there is also the new Optikfilm from Plustek which looks very interesting indeed. Just hoping it lives up to expectations which would possibly make it a good high resolution alternative to a drum scanner (potentially higher resolution than low end drum scanners but without the clarity etc).

Tim
The price of that Nikon film scanner is crazy, i better go with a drum scanner, i feel very very sad that i had one site before that listed many drum scanners in very good prices, i don't know which site link now, i don't like ebay, not sure when and from where i will get a drum scanner.

About Plustek, i have a feeling it will not outresolve the Nikon one, so i don't want to get it, it will not give me a day night difference between my V750, and even the price of it is not justify, if i will pay about $2000-3000 on film scanner i then prefer to add $2000-3000 more and get a drum scanner[used] and never look back, and to operate the drum scanner to get the best out of it will be a great challenging fun, i remember first i used my V750 i was going to sell it, but now i am happy with it and got nice scans, but i know the quality is no match to a drum scanner.
 
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