Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Now Phase One needs to collaborate with Canon to create some kick-*** "enthusiast" products.
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
Breaking Hassleblad/Sony: "Lunar" mirrorless with sony E/A mount 5k EUR
- Thread starter Paul Spinnler
- Start date
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
I keep hearing this. Yet the Phase One IQ is clearly a very innovative back.:
Bright, large, dense LCD
Custom touchscreen interface every bit on par with the world's best (iPhone)
Customizable everything (e.g. highlight warning level)
Focus Mask
Auto horizon and auto keystone adjustments
Review on LCD of past captured images when shooting tethered
Live View radically better than any CCD sensor live view, and without need for the computer
Optional 5-year warranty (shows their confidence in the durability/longevity/construction)
Up to ISO3200 (reduced res mode)
It's not CMOS, so no radical High ISO or movie-like live-view, and I'm sure there are lots of features you could want to add. But as far as comparing it to all previous medium format backs - very innovative.
Just because all products you could want don't get released at the same time doesn't mean innovation isn't taking place. Like an iceberg, the visible part is often only a fraction of what's coming.
True, no arguments there. The IQ is a fantastic product and that's why everyone is scratching their heads on the DF+.
Where's the IQ camera?! Where's the well designed tool for the modern professional photographer?
Let's face it, the DF+ at most is a Mamiya 645 that finally works.
It's the P45+ of cameras. Good, but not the next generation.
Where's the IQ camera?! Where's the well designed tool for the modern professional photographer?
Let's face it, the DF+ at most is a Mamiya 645 that finally works.
It's the P45+ of cameras. Good, but not the next generation.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Doug, yes, there is innovation. But I have the sense that we're approaching a tipping point where the sheer economies of scale will do the rest for the mdf industry. They only saviour these companies seem to see compared to Sony and Canon is to get into the luxury niche, where performance doens't matter nearly as much.
Say that Canon by 2014 releases a 50 MPX Canon 1 body with extremely low noise at base iso and dynamic range that supercedes MFD's best offering by 2 stops. Or let it be sony who enters the high-pixel game. I mean the D800 already impacts MFD sales, I'm sure you know that from experience. Let Zeiss and Schneider delevop new high-performance designs costing 2-3k EUR that provide sharp images for those sensors.
Dalsa by then maybe hasn't produced new sensors because R&D is too expensive, so Phase One will be stuck with their 80MPX design or whatever Dalsa produces by then. Maybe they will create a better body, but it won't match the weather sealing, 100 AF points, 12 pictures per second we might see by 2014 by the multi-billion dollar behemoths that are Sony/Nikon. There was a time in history where there was a substantial quality difference from those big CCDs, but with the sheer R&D muscle behind new products in the consumer area, there will be a time where a normal photographer won't see the reason anymore in spensing 10x the money for 5% more quality in the end.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I believe will happen.
What won't change though, is that there will be affluent customers willing to pay 10k for an older technology in a nice package. In the end it's about differentiation in those social environments and if you've got a rolex, why not get a lunar too.
What does that spell for the future?
Well, Hasselblad will develop a whole line of overpriced, crazily designed Sony re-badgings, Leica will probably continue with their limited editions that sell well in mainland China and Phase One will have to decide if the come out of their Pro niche in order to cash in on the global luxury market.
Nikon and Canon will slowly eat MFD sales and only car, fashion and advert. photographers in LA/NYC/LDN/DUBAI who are at the top of their game will see a marketing benefit in buying kit 10x as expensive than necessary for 2 A4 print spreads.
If a private equity investor pressured Phase One to make more money, we might soon see a Lamborghini edition IQ180 for 50k USD and a cooperation with say canon for some cool new limited edition mirrorless action. As of now, I can't imagine Phase going down this route, but money-making wise, I'd sure would be interesting to expand into the high-margin world of Leica.
Last edited:
Christopher
Active member
Sad but true.
@ hassi: ROFL
@ hassi: ROFL
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
There are dozens of reasons why people shoot with medium format that have nothing to do with resolution or dynamic range: see this post. Which, by the way, I think Phase will still dominate in 2014
.I think the impact of the D800 on MFD sales, and the death of MF, has been greatly over reported. All indications are that this will be one of the best years Phase One has ever had.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
It's really hard to ignore the IQ backs from Phase in MF. They are the best there is.
Stefan Steib
Active member
The best one is the Red gold-reptile leather version. Very tasteful........
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
This is clearly a management move dictated by financial needs. Whoever owns Hasselblad at the moment have apparently decided to get as much profit out of the brand as possible, and if that means killing the brand long term, so be it. After the V-Series, Hasselblad hasn't really developed an independent product on their own (although they've always claimed that the H-Series was designed mainly by them not Fuji). This in a way proves it; they simply lack the resources to develop a new camera system from the bottom, and had to rely on somebody else to do it. Something has apparently gone wrong with the relationship to Fuji, or maybe Fuji simply wanted out. Then they were left with very few choices.
To me, launching a camera like what they've now shown is a certain sign of a company on the edge of the cliff. They might sell in Dubai and Shanghai, but it's a dead end from a product development point of view. Even rich, spoiled kids will get tired of luxury products that aren't based on a product philosophy rooted in tradition and real value, like a Leica M, a Rolleiflex or indeed a Hasselblad V.
I don't know who owns Hasselblad now, but what they need very urgently is a resourceful owner who understands the photography business as well as the luxury goods business and is able to build on real values and real traditions. This camera, which will soon be re-badged "Lunatic" by most, is easy to place in the same category as Daimler Benz futile Maybach revival. But unlike Hasselblad, Daimler Benz is hugely successful in nearly all other product segments and could take the loss with not much more than a footnote in the annual report. Somehow, I doubt that Hasselblad is in a similar position.
Sorry for being so pessimistic, but I can't really see any positive sides to this, and I too had hoped for a digital Xpan
To me, launching a camera like what they've now shown is a certain sign of a company on the edge of the cliff. They might sell in Dubai and Shanghai, but it's a dead end from a product development point of view. Even rich, spoiled kids will get tired of luxury products that aren't based on a product philosophy rooted in tradition and real value, like a Leica M, a Rolleiflex or indeed a Hasselblad V.
I don't know who owns Hasselblad now, but what they need very urgently is a resourceful owner who understands the photography business as well as the luxury goods business and is able to build on real values and real traditions. This camera, which will soon be re-badged "Lunatic" by most, is easy to place in the same category as Daimler Benz futile Maybach revival. But unlike Hasselblad, Daimler Benz is hugely successful in nearly all other product segments and could take the loss with not much more than a footnote in the annual report. Somehow, I doubt that Hasselblad is in a similar position.
Sorry for being so pessimistic, but I can't really see any positive sides to this, and I too had hoped for a digital Xpan
rummenigge2
New member
I think the innovation everybody is talking about, is more about the cameras than the backs. The backs are great, the quality and ideas are there. No question.
But the camera systems in front of the backs do rely too much on stuff done before. In 2012 there is a lot you could change about the cameras you thought of, engineered, and build yesterday.
But the camera systems in front of the backs do rely too much on stuff done before. In 2012 there is a lot you could change about the cameras you thought of, engineered, and build yesterday.
Paul Spinnler
Well-known member
Interesting times, for sure.
There are dozens of reasons why people shoot with medium format that have nothing to do with resolution or dynamic range: see this post. Which, by the way, I think Phase will still dominate in 2014
I think the impact of the D800 on MFD sales, and the death of MF, has been greatly over reported. All indications are that this will be one of the best years Phase One has ever had.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
For the record I predict they will sell well.
They don't have to sell a million, or even 100k to make it successful financially. It looks like an inherent $3-4k gross margin since seemingly nothing costly-to-develop is changed from a stock NEX-7. Sell 10,000 units world wide and you're looking at 30 million.
The question is if it's successful will that then funnel into further developing their core business model, or encourage them to dedicate more resources into these rebadges. You can only focus on so many things at once, especially in a small company.
They don't have to sell a million, or even 100k to make it successful financially. It looks like an inherent $3-4k gross margin since seemingly nothing costly-to-develop is changed from a stock NEX-7. Sell 10,000 units world wide and you're looking at 30 million.
The question is if it's successful will that then funnel into further developing their core business model, or encourage them to dedicate more resources into these rebadges. You can only focus on so many things at once, especially in a small company.
Shashin
Well-known member
I think people get confused between technology and photography. Most professional equipment has survived by producing great images regardless of the automation and art filters--photographers are professionals and can easily compensate for the automation (is focus and exposure really that difficult?). So professional camera tend to be lean in features.
Over the last few weeks, I feel photographers seem to believe they are entitled to whatever technology they can dream up and to have that technology for free. Making camera is expensive. Personally, give me a machine with good handling and great results and I can compensate for any other "weakness."
And if you can't make it good, make it with a lot of chrome...
Over the last few weeks, I feel photographers seem to believe they are entitled to whatever technology they can dream up and to have that technology for free. Making camera is expensive. Personally, give me a machine with good handling and great results and I can compensate for any other "weakness."
And if you can't make it good, make it with a lot of chrome...
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
This is a key point obviously. In the press release, the CEO, Larry Hansen says: "We want to go back to our customers. Fifteen years ago, 65% of our customers were not professionals photographers. Today almost 100% are professionals. My goal is to make Hasselblad cameras accessible to all serious customers."
How can he be so ignorant as to not understand why 65% of their customers were non-professionals. When I grew up, Hasselblad was the symbol of premium quality and technology in a package that made it attractive for amateurs as well as professionals. It was lightweight, compact, looked stunningly well and again: the quality was second to none.
But that was 40-50 years ago. In the meantime, it's as if time has stood still at Hasselblad, until the H-Series which was clearly not aimed at amateurs. I'm quite certain that Hasselblad would stand a better chance of survival if they made a digital camera based on the look and concept of the V-Series. Smaller, but traditionalist and with an image quality on par with a Leica S. But that requires innovation and product development, neither of which seem to be among Hasselblad's strong sides at the moment.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
But it starts with a lens and ends in a sensor the middle is meaningless. These tweaks just help but they do nothing for IQ. Given the options in MF I know where that winds up in choices. If I can't focus or meter than I'm the idiot I agree.
stngoldberg
Well-known member
Hasselblad is merely following the profitable examples set by Nikon and Canon over the last few years. These two companies have products for all segments of the markets with what we can assume healthy profits that contribute proportionally to the bottom line.
Look at what Mercedes has done with their different classes of card (M,C,E etc), or Porsche with the Panamara and various SUV's.
Hasselblad has a responsibility to its shareholders and also to us (their customers) to survive and to profit. Obviously the old model wasn't working; let's hope this model will be successful so that we can continue to enjoy their top of the line offerings.
Stanley
Look at what Mercedes has done with their different classes of card (M,C,E etc), or Porsche with the Panamara and various SUV's.
Hasselblad has a responsibility to its shareholders and also to us (their customers) to survive and to profit. Obviously the old model wasn't working; let's hope this model will be successful so that we can continue to enjoy their top of the line offerings.
Stanley
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
No they are not following the example of Nikon or Canon, Mercedes or Porsche. When those companies charge a premium price, they also offer a premium product. The Lunatic is nothing more than a mainstream product with a modified body shell. And to make matters worse, Hasselblad should already have learnt their lesson. Two years ago, they launched the H4D "Ferrari Edition" which actually looked pretty cool if you happen to like the Italian sports car. It's a limited edition camera made in 499 copies only, sold at a price of some $30,000, which isn't too bad either. And two years later, they are still not sold out.
But when listening to Mr. Hansen's speech at the launch, which is all about "brands" and "emotions", that's understandable:
Hasselblad H4D Ferrari - YouTube
The problem with that product, and with the Lunatic, is that none of them are based on what made Hasselblad famous and respected. Unlike when Nikon makes an $8,000 DSLR or Porsche makes a $1-200,000 sports car. With those, you know you pay for the knowledge, the prestige and the quality built through decades. With the Lunatic, you pay $5,000 for a $1,000 camera made by a third party supplier. It's like paying $500,000 for a special edition Porsche made by Toyota.
Hasselblad Reveals Plans for Mirrorless Camera in 2013 | Fstoppers
Some artwork! My biggest 2012 disappointment.... Life isn't so bad!
Some artwork! My biggest 2012 disappointment.... Life isn't so bad!
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Ummm... if anybody wonders how Sony came into this, here's probably why:
"Dr. Hansen was appointed Hasselblad Chairman in March 2009 and CEO from November the same year. He has 26 years of experience in top management positions in the German based optical and opto-electronics firm Carl Zeiss. The last 16 years Dr. Hansen was CEO of the Carl Zeiss Asia Pacific operations based in Japan. In this role Dr. Hansen initiated and developed thriving photographic business co-operations with Japanese corporations such as Sony, Cosina and Kyocera."
The Kyocera adventure didn't end so well, something that must have been among his responsibilities. One can of course wonder how the relationship to Fuji has developed after his change to the top job at Hasselblad.
"Dr. Hansen was appointed Hasselblad Chairman in March 2009 and CEO from November the same year. He has 26 years of experience in top management positions in the German based optical and opto-electronics firm Carl Zeiss. The last 16 years Dr. Hansen was CEO of the Carl Zeiss Asia Pacific operations based in Japan. In this role Dr. Hansen initiated and developed thriving photographic business co-operations with Japanese corporations such as Sony, Cosina and Kyocera."
The Kyocera adventure didn't end so well, something that must have been among his responsibilities. One can of course wonder how the relationship to Fuji has developed after his change to the top job at Hasselblad.