Breaking Hassleblad/Sony: "Lunar" mirrorless with sony E/A mount 5k EUR

[6x6]

This camera is an absolute, premium nausea inducing, steaming pile of puke. An absolute insult to common sense and the camera industry as a whole. Not even Leica are so bold as to ask that kind of mark up on a rebadged product. I don't care how different the outer shell is, it's still a NEX 7 – a below average camera in it's original form to boot. Today I lost all faith in Hasselblad.

With all due respect, you are not their target audience. Just like you would not buy a rebranded Panasonic. But people do. People who are status orientated. Imagine it sitting next to a douche bag on a boat in linen trousers. That's the aspirational audience.

We are always going to hate this because it is targeted at the opposite market to the pro market. I think they put out the prototypes so they could gather input. I think they will end up with a rebranded NEX7, RX1 and A99. I honestly think they will sell really well based on the market size they are aiming at. Remember lots of the people buying the cameras won't have heard of the NEX7 because they don't give a ****. They just want the best perceived brand.

 

[6x6]

For example Apple now its not thinking for the designers/movie/photographers they just want to sell 1 milions Ipads/Iphones and forget about a good professional softwares or good MAC Pro workstation ...The brands need to have again realy working profissionals in there Boards for advises of what we want in the next products.

And Apple is now the biggest company in the world. Plus I hear pro's complaining all the time about the fact they don't play to the designer tune anymore. I run a P40+ on a 17" Macbook Pro, Eizo monitor and a Tunderbolt storage array. I don't need my Mac Pro anymore. I really don't. This setup actually runs faster than my 8 core 3GHz tower. Plus I get to carry it wherever I go. They do still cater to us, its just its now possible with a laptop!

 

[fotografz]

Look folks, all the wishful thinking and layering on of our hopes flies in the face of reality.

What we did not know was the degree of influence the new owners would have. Now we do.

It is a bean-counter mentality at the helm, a deliberate milking of the Brand name for profiteering, and no other reason.

People keep referencing Leica ... but in times of crisis, the person at Leica's helm understood and even cherished the Brand's essence, and put his money where his mouth was. S system and M system innovations are proof of this. Rebadged consumer cameras didn't reinvigorate Leica, their core brand product, the M9 did ... and the ground-up S2 showed a serious dedication to photographic excellence with the first really new idea in MFD since the beginning.

To think Hasselblad will pour any profits made from this venture into MFD R&D is a fairy tale.

In this story, the Wolf eats little red riding hood with a nice Chianti, the Wicked Witch boils Dorothy and her little dog Toto alive while listening to Yo-Yo Ma, and the 3 bears turn Goldilocks into their sex slave.

(Note the lack of a smiley face icon)

-Marc

 

[MartinE]

Photography is art and science and emotion for me. Its strange that my hasselblad looks different to me . Now I know nothing has changed to the actual camera but I have a feeling of moving to a new MF platform. Emotion of course but that is what marketing is about. Hasselblad seem to be doing the reverse to my emotion, which is opposite to the norm. All I think is that they don't value me/us and want a new market. My plan was upgrade to a 50Meg soon. Now I will wait for a new body and go phase. I was proud to say that my business was based on a Hasselblad system. I cannot say this now.
Regards Martin

 

[gazwas]

I dont like the Lunar Camera, but i would like to see a rich geek with a 5000$ rebrand hasselblad, and thinking - "great ! people like you are giving the money for R&D for my next H6D" !!!!

I don't imagine a company like Sony are letting HB run off with all the profit from this venture and my guess is Sony will get the lions share. Heck, Zeiss has a bigger investment in term of production costs for the lenses than HB so the notion all this money will come flooding in to pay for a nice new shiny H6D just seems unlikely.

All HB user can hope for IMO is Sony have agreed to make a 645 CMOS chip for use in the H platform and this is their deal to pay for it.

 

[Wim van Velzen]

All this makes me feel so happy that I have an old Rollei 6008i and lenses, a 22MP back and no money to buy new stuff.

It would be very frustrating to have money but nothing worthy of being bought ;-)

 

[6x6]

In this story, the Wolf eats little red riding hood with a nice Chianti, the Wicked Witch boils Dorothy and her little dog Toto alive while listening to Yo-Yo Ma, and the 3 bears turn Goldilocks into their sex slave.

(Note the lack of a smiley face icon)

-Marc

Now that is THE quote of the day!

I reference Leica because they introduced the the digilux in 2002. The M8 and S2 did not arrive until after 2008. So historically their partnership with Panasonic predates all of their higher end releases. My question is could they have done the M8 and S2 without Panasonic or the income from compact camera sales? We will never know. I for one don't think it would have been possible to do with only M7 and lens sales alone.

 

[fotografz]

And Apple is now the biggest company in the world. Plus I hear pro's complaining all the time about the fact they don't play to the designer tune anymore. I run a P40+ on a 17" Macbook Pro, Eizo monitor and a Tunderbolt storage array. I don't need my Mac Pro anymore. I really don't. This setup actually runs faster than my 8 core 3GHz tower. Plus I get to carry it wherever I go. They do still cater to us, its just its now possible with a laptop!

Apple is NOT the biggest company in the world. Wallmart is. Apple isn't even in the top 100 but IBM is. Apple is ranked 111th.

-Marc

 

[6x6]

Apple is NOT the biggest company in the world. Wallmart is. Apple isn't even in the top 100 but IBM is. Apple is ranked 111th.

-Marc

Ok there are lists by revenue, market capitalisation etc (Apple is the largest by market cap).

My point was that Apple has grown to a be a huge company. It is a minor point in the context of this discussion.

 

[tjv]

Sure, point taken, although I think there is a big difference between asking a premium for a rebadged consumer product and what is happening here.

(I know the following is rather emotive, sorry. I agree with what you say in essence, but what Hasselblad have brought to the table is just so nonsensical.)

It's extortion. Unless Hasselblad are using their own custom sensor, manufacturing their own lenses and have a completely different firmware and software package, not to mention warranty package, I can not see this being anywhere near "premium" enough to justify the stab at the market segment. We're not talking about a brand with the same established collector base and culture as Leica – who can milk the special edition market, especially with exotic lens lines and hand made components. We're talking about a SONY camera available off the shelf at Best Buy, only with a stupid outer shell at over 3.5x the price!

I'm sorry. I just needed to vent! :deadhorse:

With all due respect, you are not their target audience. Just like you would not buy a rebranded Panasonic. But people do. People who are status orientated. Imagine it sitting next to a douche bag on a boat in linen trousers. That's the aspirational audience.

We are always going to hate this because it is targeted at the opposite market to the pro market. I think they put out the prototypes so they could gather input. I think they will end up with a rebranded NEX7, RX1 and A99. I honestly think they will sell really well based on the market size they are aiming at. Remember lots of the people buying the cameras won't have heard of the NEX7 because they don't give a ****. They just want the best perceived brand.

 

[fotografz]

With all due respect, you are not their target audience. Just like you would not buy a rebranded Panasonic. But people do. People who are status orientated. Imagine it sitting next to a douche bag on a boat in linen trousers. That's the aspirational audience.

We are always going to hate this because it is targeted at the opposite market to the pro market. I think they put out the prototypes so they could gather input. I think they will end up with a rebranded NEX7, RX1 and A99. I honestly think they will sell really well based on the market size they are aiming at. Remember lots of the people buying the cameras won't have heard of the NEX7 because they don't give a ****. They just want the best perceived brand.

Oh, I think you are under-estimating the consuming public, who aren't quite the fools that arm-chair marketers think they are. A few hundred dollars to pay for a red dot on a Panasonic is one thing, this is a whole other matter.

In this day of the internet, such "grifter" attempts at profiteering are quickly revealed.

How many here have been asked by friends what they thought of this or that camera? How would you answer them if it was this one?

That answer is what will go viral.

The newly rich and bling oriented consumer hates being made a fool of, and when they find out about this rip off they most certainly WILL give a shyt.

-Marc

 

[6x6]

tjv - I totally agree. I think that they have the price point all wrong. Plus the design is awful. But they will change these. I bet we see the price coming in at $3,500 or so. Still too much in my mind, but slightly more palatable.

From an emotional POV I am annoyed too. I would have brought a digital XPan in a heart beat. However I think the market is too small to do this first. They need a banker product to start with. Granted what they showed is far from this banker product, but with adjustments ... could be.

Heck if I was being emotional and was running Hassy I would have brought back the 200FE with a large square 30MP back at a $7,000 - $8,000 price point. That would have brought back the 65% that Hassy have lost over the years. But then again I would be being emotional and I would bankrupt the company!! Still nice camera to have!

 

[fotografz]

Now that is THE quote of the day!

I reference Leica because they introduced the the digilux in 2002. The M8 and S2 did not arrive until after 2008. So historically their partnership with Panasonic predates all of their higher end releases. My question is could they have done the M8 and S2 without Panasonic or the income from compact camera sales? We will never know. I for one don't think it would have been possible to do with only M7 and lens sales alone.

It was the cold hard cash of a Leica loving businessman, and lots of it, that brought Leica to where it is today. Not any rebadged P&S.

-Marc

 

[fotografz]

Ok there are lists by revenue, market capitalisation etc (Apple is the largest by market cap).

My point was that Apple has grown to a be a huge company. It is a minor point in the context of this discussion.

The guy that took them there is dead. Hopefully there is some collective minds that can keep Apple on course.

-Marc

 

[6x6]

Marc - I agree. The price point is ridiculous and the status orientated market place would hate to be hoodwinked. In fact I've just commented stating a price of $3,500 would be acceptable. Actually I take that back. Based on your points, its still far too high.

I think the 'idea' is a good one. Stretch the brand and get another income stream. I think that Sony have been really innovative with their RX1 and A99's, but they suffer from a poor 'pro' image (in stills photography). Hassy will give this 'pro' image to them. In return maybe Sony high end will become Hassy branded. Who knows.

 

[6x6]

It was the cold hard cash of a Leica loving businessman, and lots of it, that brought Leica to where it is today. Not any rebadged P&S.

-Marc

I don't know the figures so I cannot comment on specifics. Sales income from compact sales must have found their way into the R&D of the M and S systems though. Surely that assumption is an acceptable one?

There are also many similarities between the strategies of Leica and now Hassy. A big investor and an alliance with a large electronics company. If steered right, it could be a real success. However it is the steering that is under scrutiny.

 

[fotografz]

tjv - I totally agree. I think that they have the price point all wrong. Plus the design is awful. But they will change these. I bet we see the price coming in at $3,500 or so. Still too much in my mind, but slightly more palatable.

From an emotional POV I am annoyed too. I would have brought a digital XPan in a heart beat. However I think the market is too small to do this first. They need a banker product to start with. Granted what they showed is far from this banker product, but with adjustments ... could be.

Heck if I was being emotional and was running Hassy I would have brought back the 200FE with a large square 30MP back at a $7,000 - $8,000 price point. That would have brought back the 65% that Hassy have lost over the years. But then again I would be being emotional and I would bankrupt the company!! Still nice camera to have!

You touch on something that perplexes me about what Hasselblad and their new overlords are attempting to do.

They say they want to recapture their past relationship with enthusiasts, but in past, they did that with an aspirational, well made product that Pro or enthusiasts could use and expand upon over the years. Before I ever even thought of making money with a camera, I aspired to one day own a Hasselblad and Leica M. I scrimped and saved to acquire both.

In the face of all the changes in the photo world over decades, AF 35mms, newcomer 645s, etc. ... Victor's Hassey represented a special relationship between user and maker. An alternative way to make images. They never made an AF 35mm to capture the enthusiasts.

When digital appeared and became dominate, it was price that separated many of the MFD companies from their enthusiasts supporters, especially Hasselblad because the cameras became integrated, and one couldn't just buy a new improved camera body. Okay for pros more than for enthusiasts.

So, what baffles me is why Hasselblad did not simply make an enthusiasts MF version priced near top tier 35mm DSLRs? In reality, they were arguably in a better position to do this than Pentax was. BTW, Leica just did this with their new ME.

Then the marketing should have concentrated on the whole MFD experience and differences MF brings to the table ... with both its image characteristics and more importantly experientially. Then the references back to its historical role would have made more sense.

-Marc

 

[6x6]

Marc - you could not have put it better. That is their brand, right there "a special relationship between user and maker"

I suspect there is a division within Hasselblad. On the one side there are the engineers who want to make MF cameras for pros and also ones that cross the boundary between pro and enthusiast. They want to make a modern 200FE series with 30-40MP sensor, or the digital X-Pan. Modern tech, old school looks and design.

Leica cameras have done this with their M series. The M-E / M / M9 all look very similar to the film M's. Brilliant idea. Nod to the old, in with the new. Almost everyone's happy, everyone aspires to one. Pricing is high to reflect this. What a great plan.

Then on the other side of the division are the accountants who are only looking at the books and saying "OMG, we are destined for bankruptcy. We need something safe, something that we know will sell. I'm scared of those big MF cameras, lets make a premium little one that sells like hotcakes!".

I'm on the engineer side, trust me. But I think they feel that they have to build their income base before taking anymore MF risks. It might fail big time, but it might make their finances healthier.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

So, what baffles me is why Hasselblad did not simply make an enthusiasts MF version priced near top tier 35mm DSLRs? In reality, they were arguably in a better position to do this than Pentax was. BTW, Leica just did this with their new ME.

-Marc

I've been wondering about this for a while. "Traditional" Hasselblad cameras still have a huge following, and they must have had the resources available at some point to make a modernised, more compact, digital camera that picked up inspiration and design elements from the V Series. Leica has been mentioned a number of times, but also the Hy6 is a good example of what can be done by combining contemporary and classic design elements.

What we see now is probably the result of a process that started many years ago, before the H1.

 

[Geoff]

There is this bizarre story floating around that the Hassy folks got together to determine what made their brand special - and came up with something like "we went to the moon" and neat looks?

One wonders who was at the table then.... and how they totally missed the love all of us have had for the V cameras, the compact, durable, and accessible system. Heck I owned one, and even having sold it 20 years ago, still wonder about how it would be with a nice 30+ mp back on it. OK, so focus might be an issue, but its a lovely package regardless. Alluring, durable, with a sense of purposefulness that endured.

Now, on the basis of a poor design and a poor sensibility, and a poor read of their support base, that long lasting loyalty from the photo community has been whooshed out the door. Amazing and very sad. One can only hope they recover.