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Thread: Out of interest...

  1. #1
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    Out of interest...

    Out of interest, how much does a certified Phase One 45+ back (without body or lenses) in M mount and EX+ condition, 10K-30K exposures exposures, cost through a reputable dealer? With my Linhof Techno just clearing customs, I'm starting to look around to get an idea of how high I need to aim for to set myself up with a digital capture solution. I won't be buying for at least another twelve months, but it's good to know how high the bar is set. In the mean time I'll shoot the Techno with a 6x7 film back.

    If anyone wants to know, I'm looking at the P45+ primarily because of the larger sensor size and longer exposure capabilities. I'm not often in the realm of extreme long exposures but I'd like to know I could do it if needed. A P65+ might be the best fit for me – forgetting for a moment the IQ series backs – but I think they might be out of my league money wise.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    I would expect a certified P45+ back to be in the realm of ~$12K to $15K, with a P65+ MFDB requiring just a bit more investment.

    Long exposure capability of the P45+ notwithstanding, the P65+ is simply a better MFDB in all other regards, imo.

    ken

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Thanks,
    I agree, the P65+ seems a better option. I wasn't aware the P45+ backs were keeping such a high value. I'm guessing this is because of the long exposure capability?
    Anyway, who knows what the market will be doing in six to twelve months when I'm ready to buy?

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    Re: Out of interest...

    I'd take a good long look at the P40+.

    Aside from the long exposure capabilities on the P45+, the P40+ is a much better back in every other regard, especially on a tech camera and not only shares the same chip design as the P65+ but also the current IQ140,160 and 180.

    If your sole purpose is to use it on a technical camera the size of the chip has very little significance IMO unlike when looking through the view finder on a SLR camera and having to deal with a crop mask.

    The P40+ is capable of stunning results and much overlooked!

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Thanks,
    I agree, the P65+ seems a better option. I wasn't aware the P45+ backs were keeping such a high value. I'm guessing this is because of the long exposure capability?...
    Yeah it is mostly for the long exposure capability. A lot of people want the P45+ as a back-up because it gives them that additional functionality.

    Dave

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    Re: Out of interest...

    A P45 (not P45+) was sold at ebay a week ago for EUR 6500.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    What was the condition, shot count, warranty, seller experience (to know if something was wrong), repair history, firmware compatibility, and guarantees on that back from eBay? Was it test on all relevant platforms, with all functionality and ports, or just the ones typical for the user selling it?

    Typically you get what you pay for. EBay prices should not be compared to dealer prices or even private sale with someone you already know/trust.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Out of interest...

    I purchased a relatively low count, H mount, Value Added P45+, in VGC from a reputable NY dealer for $12-$13K from memory. I would expect it would still be worth around the same amount.

    Until a P45+ rival knocks it off its perch, it'll still command good dollars.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'd take a good long look at the P40+.

    ... P40+ is a much better back in every other regard, especially on a tech camera and not only shares the same chip design as the P65+ but also the current IQ140,160 and 180.
    P40+ and P65+ were per memory announced at one time, and are perhaps different size of same sensors?? IQ180 share same sensor as the 80MP Leaf backs and are newer generation sensors that share a newer sensor design. P1 vs. Leaf they are different implementations, but Leaf are more competitive priced. Obvious I am partial, I shoot Leaf myself.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Great info, thanks guys.
    I've had a few people tell me that the P40+ is the better back, actually. I guess I'm just being seduced by the slightly bigger chip and longer exposures – the latter of which is not really essential. What is the going rate of a certified used P40+ as a point of comparison?

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    P40+ and P65+ were per memory announced at one time, and are perhaps different size of same sensors?? IQ180 share same sensor as the 80MP Leaf backs and are newer generation sensors that share a newer sensor design. P1 vs. Leaf they are different implementations, but Leaf are more competitive priced. Obvious I am partial, I shoot Leaf myself.
    Hi Anders, The P40+ and P65+ were indeed released at the same time and do share the same sensor but at a different size.

    Not sure you are correct about the 80Mpix sensors though. As far as my understanding goes they are of the exact same design as the previous Dalsa 40 and 60.5Mpix sensors in the P+ backs but had a reduction in pixel size (from 6 to 5.2 microns) to squeeze the extra Mpix onto the chip. I don't think any other characteristic changed apart from Mpix count.

    The "New" (though I'm not sure they are) generation of chips was nothing like the change when Phase went from Kodak to Dalsa or when Canon/Nikon design whole new CMOS chips for their new flagship cameras..

    So what I'm basically saying is buy buying a P40+ or P65+, you are still at the very tip top of current MF sensor design but just in last seasons clothes.

    .......... would love to be proved wrong though.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    I've had a few people tell me that the P40+ is the better back, actually. I guess I'm just being seduced by the slightly bigger chip and longer exposures – the latter of which is not really essential.
    I went for the bigger chip when I purchased my back for sole use on a tech camera and I can honestly say its the one camera system where by sensor size means nothing.

    You are getting a Techno and all a full frame MF chip will do is give you a slightly larger (buy still very tiny) image on the ground glass. Its pretty pathetic when compared to the full 6x9 view you get when first opening the lens, them having to crop it down to the 645 format. The differences in chip size between crop and FF can be made up for by stitching. A FF chip will give you exactly the same angle of view, stitching capabilitties as a crop sensor as the only thing that effects those things is the image circle size of the lens you use.

    If I was to buy again the size of the sensor would be much, much lower on my priority list rather than as it was, at the tip top.
    Last edited by gazwas; 23rd October 2012 at 03:38.

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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    I went with the crop sensor on a tech cam for exactly that reason. Oh, and the huge price difference. That helped, too.

    But I still have full-frame envy.

    --Matt

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    But I still have full-frame envy.
    That's just a man thing and we're all the same!

    Just remember, FF won't make you take any better pictures.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Just remember, FF won't make you take any better pictures.
    True that.

    On the Zion trip, Guy and Jack were shooting with the teeny little 36x24mm sensors on their D800s and were STILL getting better photos.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Do P40+ backs hold the value like the P45+? I'm surprised at how popular the latter is.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    And remember that MF sensor is still larger than any FF 35mm DSLRs, so even a cropped factor MF body i prefer it over FF 35mm.
    Tareq

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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Do P40+ backs hold the value like the P45+? I'm surprised at how popular the latter is.
    Don't think any digital back holds its value?

    The only reason the P45+ is still pretty strong is because of its unique long exposure feature and the fact its a 39Mpix near full frame chip (1:15 ). Given that the options are now 1:25 crop or much, much more expensive FF, the P45+ sits in a pretty unique position and attracts attention and higher prices because of this.

    As for holding its value(???)....... from 2005-2009 the P45 was Phase One's top of the range back and would have sold for similar money today as an IQ180. The fact you can pick them up for relatively little in comparison to the cost of a new IQ180 makes it a bargain IMO.

    However, all this said the output of a P40+ is pure and simply amazing with creamy smooth colour transitions and super sharp results. The P45 in comparison while still delivering amazing files looks a bit less polished IMO and I much prefer the Dalsa look.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    The P45 also has less DR and to me a more crunchy file compared to the Dalsa chip. Color wise the Dalsa is much more neutral in tone and look. Personally I would buy the Dalsa 9 times out of 10 . BTW you can squeeze a 90 second exposure off tha Dalsa as long as its cool out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    True that.

    On the Zion trip, Guy and Jack were shooting with the teeny little 36x24mm sensors on their D800s and were STILL getting better photos.
    Matt,

    Dont sell yourself short. You got some pretty great stuff with the even teenier sensor on your Oly.
    Bryan

    “You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams

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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    Oh, I'm not complaining, Bryan. The trick, as you know well, is to use a tech camera as flexibly as you would an SLR. It's not the chip. It's not even primarily the lens. It's the vision and imagination of the photographer.

    And there WAS a big smiley emoticon at the end there.

    Best,

    Matt

    (and it's a good thing that the workshop instructors had some damned amazing shots, right?)
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Out of interest...

    For inspirationly needs of course. LOL

    As I said on the workshop the vision takes a little while to come back when working with a tech cam. It is not something we shot for many years. It's simply a change of shooting style and after the process gets under your belt your vision comes back. This really is a normal progression. You guys got some great images. It certainly took me some time to get my creative juices going again. I chalked that up to a being familiar with it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Out of interest...

    With a tech cam and super sharp, perfect lenses, the sensor size may not matter so much, especially if you're a stitcher; however for lenses with more character, it becomes more visible with a larger sensor. The best example I can think of is a 50 summilux on a FF M9 looks totally different to the same lens mounted on a Nex 5 or Fuji XPro1. If I could get my hands on a smaller sensor it would be nice to test this with a the Mamiya RZ 110/2.8 to see what a difference it makes there.

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