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Thread: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    I worry about me, I really do:

    Today I went to my dealer to take back my P1 80 2.8 for replacement. I showed him the files from it and he instantly agreed that it was DOA. He also replaced my charger.

    Feeling sunny, I plumped for a nice new Mamiya 28mm 4.5 he had in stock and went whistling home where as usual I set up my tripod, flipped up my mirror and reached for my cable release...

    The following are centre crops at F4.5, 5 and 7.1 developed at defaults in C1.

    I leave you to draw your own conclusions but mine were to go straight back to the poor benighted dealer (with Mamiya AND the replacement charger which was also DOA...)

    The poor chap then tested the lens, thethered, against a rental version he had on the shelf, agreeing to refund it when he saw the results. we also went through a further two duff Hahnel chargers until in the end they loaned my the shop's own one, which works fine.

    Please tell me it's not me!

    Any comments on the lens are welcome: I'm not familiar with it but its reputation implies it should be pretty sharp even wide open and extremely sharp in the mid-apertures?

    Best

    Tim

    Full scene first then cropped centre on focussed zone at 4.5 then 5 then 7.1

    Attachment 9250

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    Attachment 9249
    Last edited by tashley; 8th July 2009 at 11:01.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Could be, or maybe your dealer is on somebody's "wrong" list.
    I once knew a chap who in one day:
    1. Turned on his computer, which literally and immediatly began belching smoke
    2. Walked into a conference room whereupon a fluorescent ballast immediately blew
    3. Tripped going down stairs and got a nasty bump on his head
    and then...
    4. Deciding to call it a day and go home to hide, found that his car would not start.

    Does this resemble you?
    -bob

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Tim throw out everything you know from wider than 5.6 because it does not apply to MF. When you shoot LF what is your F stop minimum it is about F16. MF it is about F8. Your also looking at these way beyond 100 percent. You simply cannot compare this to 35mm which i see you keep doing. You need to stop lenses down. Something maybe wrong here but my point is not. MF is different by a long shot. I have the 28mm but I won't shoot it wider than F8 because i know my DOF in 35mm is about 2.8 or F4
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Could be, or maybe your dealer is on somebody's "wrong" list.
    I once knew a chap who in one day:
    1. Turned on his computer, which literally and immediatly began belching smoke
    2. Walked into a conference room whereupon a fluorescent ballast immediately blew
    3. Tripped going down stairs and got a nasty bump on his head
    and then...
    4. Deciding to call it a day and go home to hide, found that his car would not start.

    Does this resemble you?
    -bob

    Sounds like an average day...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Tim throw out everything you know from wider than 5.6 because it does not apply to MF. When you shoot LF what is your F stop minimum it is about F16. MF it is about F8. Your also looking at these way beyond 100 percent. You simply cannot compare this to 35mm which i see you keep doing. You need to stop lenses down. Something maybe wrong here but my point is not. MF is different by a long shot. I have the 28mm but I won't shoot it wider than F8 because i know my DOF in 35mm is about 2.8 or F4
    Hey Guy,

    I already did throw that stuff away - I've been shooting 4 x 5 film for a while now and was raised partly on a Rollei. And I promise you, I do understand this is not 35mm - 35mm is one sensor size in a range in my armoury that from top to bottom is vast!

    The crops here shown are 100% and it's not a DOF thing, really really. It's a faulty lens thing. We tested a beat up, one generation ago rental version of the same lens and it was quite a lot sharper. I totally agree that one needs to stop down for MF but this lens was royally whacked not to be able to be reasonably sharp at F4.5 on a subject over 100 metres away.

    At a COC of 0.041, which I think is reasonable for a medium sized print, the hyperfocal distance for this lens at F4.5 is just under 5 metres....

    The lens is screwed. I just got unlucky twice in a row!

    I'll survive....

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Sounds like you did , it will all work out but I am pretty surprised have not heard this much bad luck with a bad lens.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    For what it's worth, I have tested my 28 mm extensively.

    It is not very impressive at full aperture (almost unusable for critical work), acceptable at f8, and very very good at f11.

    And to my surprise (using the P45+) f16 is entirely acceptable, especially at the corners. I assumed that diffraction limitations would apply at f16, but if anything it may be just a tad better than f11.

    I have stopped toting my 35 mm lens around unless weight is no object, because using the center "35 mm equivalent" crop of the 28's image is just as good.

    Good luck finding one as good as mine...

    Bill

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    I agree Bill mine is a stellar copy but F8 is when things start and F16 is really good as well as F11. My corners are pretty good too and my little trick in C1 makes it even better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    My copy (soon to be Jack's) is very sharp; as a matter of a fellow photographer used copies of my images to help him get a replacement for his.

    don
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Tim, if that's the 28, I'd say it looks great at f7, so should be really good stopped down!

    (Plus, I'd be willing to bet the complex design focus-shifts some and this could be what you are seeing. Also most noticeable at longer distances with wider apertures...)
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    My copy (soon to be Jack's) is very sharp; as a matter of a fellow photographer used copies of my images to help him get a replacement for his.

    don
    Hmmm he was hiding that from me. LOL

    But a great choice. Love mine
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I agree Bill mine is a stellar copy but F8 is when things start and F16 is really good as well as F11. My corners are pretty good too and my little trick in C1 makes it even better
    so what's your little trick Guy?

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tim, if that's the 28, I'd say it looks great at f7, so should be really good stopped down!

    (Plus, I'd be willing to bet the complex design focus-shifts some and this could be what you are seeing. Also most noticeable at longer distances with wider apertures...)
    Argh, am I just really spoiled by Leica or is it totally useless to sell an f/4.5 lens if it is no good until f/8? Why don't they just sell an f/8 lens? This whole thing really turns me off Mamiya, to be honest. I may be spoiled, but those are my feelings.
    Carsten - Website

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Who said it was no good until F8 , it is good in the center like any other lens wide open but the corners do not start to come into there own until around F8 this will be with any MF lens this wide. You can't compare Leica for 35mm to MF or LR. There f stops start at a much different stage for optimum results be it Rollie, Hassy , Mamiya, Zeiss or any other brand in MF . We are also speaking of a 28mm lens which in the first place is almost impossible to make , Hassy and Mamiya are the only ones that make a 28mm.If you looked at the Mamiya lens for example the front element is like a round tennis ball and the issue is the curvature of the lens and focusing on closer objects on the outside of the frame. There is just no getting around that. Believe me i owned almost every Leica lens there is and not one of them can touch my 150 2.8 wide open except maybe the 180 F2 R. The 28mm is a very unique lens in MF with a retrofocus design and the Hassy 28mm is no better and actually has more distortion , reason for the DAC in software. Seriously you have not shot this glass and making assumptions based on a lens that Tim posted that has some issues. I would not sell my 28mm for anything unless there was a major need i had. The tech lenses in this area are better like the Rodenstock and Schnieder but there not retrofocus design and much easier technically to make high quality from them.

    Almost all shot with the Mamiya 28mm. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3856
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    so what's your little trick Guy?
    Waiting for you to ask . Read this thread and it works really nice but the next C1 upgrade i was told they will have this ready for the 28mm with regards to correcting for corner sharpness. Until than you can set this up in C1

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3709
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Who said it was no good until F8 , it is good in the center like any other lens wide open but the corners do not start to come into there own until around F8 this will be with any MF lens this wide.
    I don't know about other copies of this lens, but Tim's crops were very near the center...
    Carsten - Website

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    I think everyone agrees there maybe something wrong with his lens. The difference between 4.5 and f5 is not right and a big jump to 7.1. F4.5 and F5 should be almost identical and there not even close
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Argh, am I just really spoiled by Leica or is it totally useless to sell an f/4.5 lens if it is no good until f/8? Why don't they just sell an f/8 lens? This whole thing really turns me off Mamiya, to be honest. I may be spoiled, but those are my feelings.
    TAshley's 28mm lens was no good and his dealer gave him an immediate refund as you would expect. On the 28mm lens (his bad unit) not withstanding f/4.5 is not AS sharp as f/8 but it IS sharp.

    From the dealer's perspective: Like any technological product some are received DOA. The nature of a DOA makes it hard to determine where the product went bad between successful testing in the factory to the first test shot in the customer's hands. When there is a problem with a delivered item there is a generous DOA period. In fact from my point of view the mnfrs fall over themselves to satisfy DOA requests.

    TAshley: Now as to how you managed to get a bad 80mm AND a bad 28mm I have no idea and that must be terribly frustrating. In the past 12 months I've overseen the DOA exchange of two lenses out of hundreds we've sold. So I guess what I'm saying is don't spend any time in Vegas for a while.

    All that said, the 28mm from Hasselblad and Mamiya are both amazing feats of optical design in that they exist at all. As Guy said only two companies have produced a rectilinear medium format lens this wide and the fact that they are autofocus and relatively sharp is a bonus. We have always said that if you want uncompromising IQ at that focal length you need a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman, Cambo, or Silvestri so that you can use non-retro-focus large-format glass from Rodenstock/Schneider.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    TAshley's 28mm lens was no good and his dealer gave him an immediate refund as you would expect. On the 28mm lens (his bad unit) not withstanding f/4.5 is not AS sharp as f/8 but it IS sharp.
    That was what I thought too, until the others missed the centre crop part and started saying it was really fine for f/7-f/8 I don't agree about your sharpness comment at all though. Tim's centre crop at f/4.5 was about as sharp as a wet rag.

    All that said, the 28mm from Hasselblad and Mamiya are both amazing feats of optical design in that they exist at all. As Guy said only two companies have produced a rectilinear medium format lens this wide and the fact that they are autofocus and relatively sharp is a bonus. We have always said that if you want uncompromising IQ at that focal length you need a dedicated tech camera like a Horseman, Cambo, or Silvestri so that you can use non-retro-focus large-format glass from Rodenstock/Schneider.
    There will also be the Leica 24mm S2 lens coming... Leica lenses are typically sharper wide open than the competition stopped down a bit, so it will be interesting to see the comparisons when it arrives.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    I like to see that too myself. If anyone can build a super wide for MF leica would certainly be one of them. Will be nice to have 3 choices at some point without getting a tech camera to get good results in this area. The Hassy and Mamiya do a fine job with there 28mm so I look forward to see what leica can produce here. This is a tough lens to build, no question.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    That was what I thought too, until the others missed the centre crop part and started saying it was really fine for f/7-f/8 I don't agree about your sharpness comment at all though. Tim's centre crop at f/4.5 was about as sharp as a wet rag.
    Thanks Carsten - I was beginning to think I was seeing things that were invisible to others. Always spooky!

    ;-)

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    TAshley: Now as to how you managed to get a bad 80mm AND a bad 28mm I have no idea and that must be terribly frustrating. In the past 12 months I've overseen the DOA exchange of two lenses out of hundreds we've sold. So I guess what I'm saying is don't spend any time in Vegas for a while.



    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    Hi Doug,

    Thanks for the pointers!

    I have one idea here: I am picky about glass - I hope not overly so, but when I buy a lens I ALWAYS give it a quick test for obvious faults. The reason for this is that in my experience, a notable (maybe 10% or more?) percentage of lenses have issues from new. QC procedures these days involve testing a representative sample of lenses off the production line, I think few manufacturers test them all.

    Knowing this (and having been burned by it before) I always make sure I test new glass properly. At 3,000 a pop I think that's justifiable! And I am somewhat sanguine about getting two duds in a row because I have an immaculate Noctilux that, holy grail of grails, doesn't focus shift badly as it stops down. So I already had my lucky run in Vegas!

    More worrying is the fact that my dealer and I had to go through FIVE Hahnel chargers before finding one that worked properly. I caution all purchasers to check this out and to hope I got in the middle of a bad batch. But on no account buy a new P1 setup and go abroad on a shoot without giving it the once-over first.

    But then that's true of all gear. My 1DSIII arrived with a sensor so filthy with shutter grease that it looked like someone had sneezed on it. My M8.2 also had a grubby sensor at delivery...

    Best

    T

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    But on no account buy a new P1 setup and go abroad on a shoot without giving it the once-over first.

    But then that's true of all gear. My 1DSIII arrived with a sensor so filthy with shutter grease that it looked like someone had sneezed on it. My M8.2 also had a grubby sensor at delivery...

    Best

    T
    Exactly, under no condition should you take gear on a shoot which you have not tested to satisfaction. True of any manufacturer and any price. Perhaps the only exception is when a trusted dealer does the testing for you; even then, you better trust them a LOT.

    There are some items we often refuse to deliver without testing them ourselves. Certain helical mount lenses we've had around 25% come in marked for infinity incorrectly (the glass was sharp but the focus point marking was off). Otherwise we make sure the customer knows to test for this if they want it delivered ASAP.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    There will also be the Leica 24mm S2 lens coming... Leica lenses are typically sharper wide open than the competition stopped down a bit, so it will be interesting to see the comparisons when it arrives.
    I think we're all looking forward to seeing what magic Leica can work at this focal length. If anyone can do it, Leica would be it.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: It's me again, Mr Jinxed

    I usually wouldnt push a MF, meaning wide open, but MY experience is that half to one stop up and a lot of my MF lenses do just fine.

    Here's a 35mm FL 3.5 lens, at 4.0 from the P45p (SO REALLY getting detail)

    noisy as one would expect in a dark church

    but this is striaght C1>jpg in PS (sized 900 for the full, actual pixels for the crop)


    Victor
    Last edited by gogopix; 25th January 2015 at 17:23.

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