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Best older digital back for stitched landscapes on view camera?

PhotoTurbo

New member
Sorry my first post is such a JONGish question, but I have done quite a bit of searching the forum and soaked up as much as I can. Here goes:

What would be a good starter digital back based on the below:

- Have a budget of $3K or less.

- Planning to use used MF and digital LF lenses to get enough resolution (Mamiya 50mm ULD or 65mm LA RZ67, LF Digitars, etc), and use the DB on my 4x5 view camera to stitch landscape panoramas. So I'll be using movements, which I understand can create issues with some backs (microlens color casts).

- LCD LiveView capability would be great for focusing, but I do have a lightweight laptop PC if my budget forces me to shoot a no-LCD tethered DB. (I assume there are older backs that have tethered Liveview?) To save batteries and see the whole image before stitching, I plan to use the ground glass to get the movements dialed, then swap to the DB, focus, and shoot.

- I'm a hobby machinist, so I'll be making my own stitching back, adapters, etc.


I currently have a Cambo Ultima 45 with sliding-back 4x5-to-EOS adapter and an Ultima 35 DSLR view camera rig. Using these with Canon 40D (LiveView) and 1Ds2 (full-frame but hard to focus), and want to eliminate the darn mirror box shadowing issues by going to a DB.

Thanks in advance!
 

Greg Lockrey

New member
Not to throw any water on your dream, but it's a lot easier just to put your camera on a pan/tilt head and just make your exposures at overlapping intervals and stitch them with any of a number of programs out there. Some are so good now that you can make your pans hand held. AutoPano Pro comes to mind. I only mention this because the method you describe will be inherently slow.
 
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carstenw

Active member
I don't think any back offers live view at twice the price you are looking for, and even those that do, at least some don't have screens good enough to allow you to check focus...

At that price, you can almost, but not quite, stretch to a Kodak Pro 645 back, apparently a nice back, but with a small sensor, forcing you to stitch more to get the same.

I don't know if any cheap backs offer adapters to allow you to use it on more than one camera, so you'll probably have to choose a fixed-mount which can be put on the Cambo.

But I am also a newb. Maybe the real experts can chime in here.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
You'll need to at least double your budget just to get a foot in the door. Barely. And even then, you'll be forever wanting....

Note the quote from Dante at the top of this forum for Medium Format Digital Systems!
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
One thing you might consider, and just might get into at your price, is a few generation old scanning back. With it's larger capture area, you can use wide lenses on a view camera and maybe get you pano without stitching or shifting. Just a thought...
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I'm afraid that at $3000 you'll wind up very disappointed and in the long run it'll cost you much more.

My suggestion is to think of getting a pano kit from Really Right Stuff. I've used one on both my 35mm as well as MF without any problems.

By the way, curious about why you say you have problems with the focus on the 1DsII as that was my primary landscape camera before going to MF.

Good luck in your quest!

don
 

yaya

Active member
Sorry my first post is such a JONGish question, but I have done quite a bit of searching the forum and soaked up as much as I can. Here goes:

What would be a good starter digital back based on the below:

- Have a budget of $3K or less.

- Planning to use used MF and digital LF lenses to get enough resolution (Mamiya 50mm ULD or 65mm LA RZ67, LF Digitars, etc), and use the DB on my 4x5 view camera to stitch landscape panoramas. So I'll be using movements, which I understand can create issues with some backs (microlens color casts).

- LCD LiveView capability would be great for focusing, but I do have a lightweight laptop PC if my budget forces me to shoot a no-LCD tethered DB. (I assume there are older backs that have tethered Liveview?) To save batteries and see the whole image before stitching, I plan to use the ground glass to get the movements dialed, then swap to the DB, focus, and shoot.

- I'm a hobby machinist, so I'll be making my own stitching back, adapters, etc.


I currently have a Cambo Ultima 45 with sliding-back 4x5-to-EOS adapter and an Ultima 35 DSLR view camera rig. Using these with Canon 40D (LiveView) and 1Ds2 (full-frame but hard to focus), and want to eliminate the darn mirror box shadowing issues by going to a DB.

Thanks in advance!
You can get a Leaf Valeo 22Wi for under $4,000 (I can point you to one if you want) and then you have a few more steps:

1. A Mac for shooting tethered (the Valeo doesn't work on a PC)
2. A Portable solution consisting of a 20/30GB FireWire HD and an Ipaq, these can be had for near to nothing on eBay and again I can point you to some. This will allow you to shoot untethered.

You will need an adapter for your RZ, again this can be found 2nd hand quite easily.

This back will give you the best 22MP, 48X36 sensor which is exceptionally good for LF work as it is the most uniform of all sensors in terms of colour casts and it is definitely the sharpest one.

So this still means a bit of a stretch but not that much of it

Yair
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
Perfect suggestion Yair. I myself used this very setup a few years back. The Valeo 22Wi is not a bad choice at all given the budget constraints! And you will be sacrificing very little in IQ, though at the expense of portability.
 

PhotoTurbo

New member
By the way, curious about why you say you have problems with the focus on the 1DsII as that was my primary landscape camera before going to MF.
Thanks for the ideas guys! Keep 'em coming.

With EOS lenses the 1Ds2 is flawless, but mounted on a 4x5-to-EOS adapter I lose focus confirmation and can only focus using the viewfinder. Focus confirmation isn't needed on the 40D, since I can use LiveView to focus.

I may ship the adapter bayonet to HappyPageHK in Hong Kong to have him add an AF-confirm chip. I have a Leica-EOS one and it works great.
 

irakly

New member
probably an original kodak proback, or proback plus would be the best bang for the buck. you can shoot untethered, but a power source needs to be either AC, or a two-pound quantum turbo battery. image quality wise, it is in my opinion better than phase one p20, which has the same sensor. the difference between proback and proback plus is that the former sports only iso100, whole later has iso range 100-400.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
probably an original kodak proback, or proback plus would be the best bang for the buck. you can shoot untethered, but a power source needs to be either AC, or a two-pound quantum turbo battery. image quality wise, it is in my opinion better than phase one p20, which has the same sensor. the difference between proback and proback plus is that the former sports only iso100, whole later has iso range 100-400.
If you can stand the terribly tedious workflow and limitations of the scanning motion (no subject movement allowed, long exposure times) then you could go with an old scan back. There are some big pluses:
- They are very cheap.
- They can be very very high resolution.
- They take up the full 4x5 area and therefore no need for stitching.
- You can compose and focus on the full 4x5 ground glass (easy on the eyes)
- since the back slides into the view camera just like a film holder the same setup can easily be used to grab a film setup

One example is that we have perfectly good PowerPhaseFX+ scan backs sitting on the shelf that would fit your budget, use standard firewire, and give you 120* megapixels of uninterpolated color. I would never downplay what a pain in the butt they are to use versus a single shot back, but if you can stand the workflow then they are a phenomenal option. Plus they have zero native infrared filtration (but rely on post-lens IR filtration so IR-only or IR+color photography is really simple).

If you can't stomach a scan back you'll find single shot backs in the $3k range are far and few between. Make sure you check the compatibility of software/raw files as many of the older backs in that price range are from manufacturers that no longer make DBs. A H20 or H25 is likely to be above that price range, but not by a lot, but they would provide the same workflow and support in Capture One 4.5 as a brand new P45+.

Anyway, as many here have advised that price range is very limiting, but that doesn't mean you could have fun and get some great shots. Every new generation of technology makes the previous one seem overly cumbersome and tedious, but beautiful images were made back when you had to carry your darkroom with you and process the image while the plate was still wet, so don't let us talk you out of one of the options at this price as long as you're aware of the drawbacks.

*not a typo. Resolution is 10500 x 12600 and each pixel sees all three colors

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

carstenw

Active member
Are there 645 scan backs, also in that price range? What is the workflow and equipment needed, if one wants to shoot outside?
 

Clawery

New member
Doug does offer a good solution with the scan back, but since you shoot landscapes it might be a bit of an issue. Scan backs like having the continuous even lighting and no movement. That could be difficult with sunsets, clouds or trees moving with a breeze.

A single capture back might be a good solution. You could go with a Phase One H20 or H25. Take a look at an auction of ours on E-Bay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-One-H20-1...5|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter
 

Clawery

New member
Movement could definitely be an issue, I considered a scanning back but figured if I stitch I only have to worry about movement at the image seams.

Almost-new ZD back looking to go cheap here ($3,500 with four hours to go): http://cgi.ebay.com/Mamiya-ZD-Digital-Back_W0QQitemZ160303177969
We will have some more backs going up on E-Bay sometime in this week. I'll try to post and give you the links so you can take a look and see if they might work for you.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter
 

PhotoTurbo

New member
Thanks guys, does the Valeo 22wi with iPaq offer liveview for focusing?

And if not, what are the least expensive used backs that do offer liveview?
 

PhotoTurbo

New member
Thanks for the advice guys. If we do away with the $3K budget and but make Liveview ability (so I can focus without ground glass) a requirement, which used digital backs should I be looking for?

(Maybe i misunderstood, I know the Valeo 22wi can shoot untethered, but does it have Liveview?)
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
Not to throw any water on your dream, but it's a lot easier just to put your camera on a pan/tilt head and just make your exposures at overlapping intervals and stitch them with any of a number of programs out there. Some are so good now that you can make your pans hand held. AutoPano Pro comes to mind. I only mention this because the method you describe will be inherently slow.
Stitching with movements is better than using a pano head. The focal plane remains flat with movements. WIth a pano head the focal plane becomes polyhedral (and approximates a sphere). This could make a difference depending on the aperture used, and the subject.
 
H

Hoang

Guest
If you can stand the terribly tedious workflow and limitations of the scanning motion (no subject movement allowed, long exposure times) then you could go with an old scan back. There are some big pluses:
- They are very cheap.
- They can be very very high resolution.
- They take up the full 4x5 area and therefore no need for stitching.
- You can compose and focus on the full 4x5 ground glass (easy on the eyes)
- since the back slides into the view camera just like a film holder the same setup can easily be used to grab a film setup

One example is that we have perfectly good PowerPhaseFX+ scan backs sitting on the shelf that would fit your budget, use standard firewire, and give you 120* megapixels of uninterpolated color. I would never downplay what a pain in the butt they are to use versus a single shot back, but if you can stand the workflow then they are a phenomenal option. Plus they have zero native infrared filtration (but rely on post-lens IR filtration so IR-only or IR+color photography is really simple).

If you can't stomach a scan back you'll find single shot backs in the $3k range are far and few between. Make sure you check the compatibility of software/raw files as many of the older backs in that price range are from manufacturers that no longer make DBs. A H20 or H25 is likely to be above that price range, but not by a lot, but they would provide the same workflow and support in Capture One 4.5 as a brand new P45+.

Anyway, as many here have advised that price range is very limiting, but that doesn't mean you could have fun and get some great shots. Every new generation of technology makes the previous one seem overly cumbersome and tedious, but beautiful images were made back when you had to carry your darkroom with you and process the image while the plate was still wet, so don't let us talk you out of one of the options at this price as long as you're aware of the drawbacks.

*not a typo. Resolution is 10500 x 12600 and each pixel sees all three colors

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
About how much would a used PowerPhaseFX+ go for, Doug?
 
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