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Thread: 645DF+

  1. #1
    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    645DF+

    Hello
    Has anybody had any experiences with the new Phase One 645DF+.
    Would it be worth upgrading from the 645DF, or maybe save the money and get the 28 LS?
    Any Opinions?
    Thanks
    Phil

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    Re: 645DF+

    If the autofocus on the DF drives you insane, it's worth the upgrade. If not, it isn't.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #3
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    Bill

    Does that mean you have the 645DF+?

    Is the auto focus on the DF+ a big jump forward or just a small improvement?

    At present I just feel like sitting tight for another year and then reviewing the options.


    Mal

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    Re: 645DF+

    heard next year there will be a new body

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    Re: 645DF+

    I will be selling a brand new DF+ in the next couple days or so if you want to see if its worth upgrading Not a single shot on it!

  6. #6
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    so why are you selling it?

    Not that


    i am cashed up to make a purchase, even if i wanted one.


    mal

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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Would it be worth upgrading from the 645DF, or maybe save the money and get the 28 LS?
    Glass any day of the week over a camera body.

    I like the DF but agree the focus is a little skitty but it always gives me sharp results in the end. I don't see the value in the cost to upgrade to the DF+ over the DF and if judging by your 28LS question your a wide angle shooter AF has less importance IMO.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Came with my p65+ kit. It was cheaper to get the kit than the back by itself, so I will be selling the brand new DF+ and the 80mm LS.

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    so why are you selling it?

    Not that


    i am cashed up to make a purchase, even if i wanted one.


    mal

  9. #9
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    Re: 645DF+

    And as always, my savings will be moved on to those at GETDPI . I will sell for 75% new price. After taxes, this is almost 40 percent off new in Europe.

  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    Depends on need here if your shooting a lot of people stuff with movement and such than the DF+ will be an advantage. I'm supposed to get one to test but I have been told it really is a good improvement in accuracy and speed. Now your asking a lens whore here and I will always go towards buying glass first but if this is a real need in shooting than only you can answer your real need here. Myself as a commercial shooter I would go with the 28mm myself. The real intention for the DF+ was for new back owners to get a updated body. Not sure it was more for resale to upgrade too as a marketing tool. But if your struggling with the DF than sure its worth upgrading too. I personally never had issues with the DF with speed or accuracy and I shot a lot of fashion with it. The 28 LS is a really good lens to have in your kit . I did many interior jobs with it. Again the mantra I always have as a working Pro for myself is need first but I've been known to screw up that rule too with I WANT IT. LOL

    This is Dante's inferno you know. LOL

    Okay back to my office renovation. Install new office furniture I stole from my wife's office.
    cause I wanted it. ROTFLMAO
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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Hello
    Has anybody had any experiences with the new Phase One 645DF+.
    Would it be worth upgrading from the 645DF, or maybe save the money and get the 28 LS?
    Phil
    Only you can answer is better AF and the (included) Lithium Ion battery are going to provide you more of a workflow/creative/technical/business boost than a 28LS lens.

    I can say though, based on my own use, that the improvement in autofocus is significant.

    At least for the moment we (Digital Transitions) have an upgrade program for DF to DF+ and as a result availability of pre-owned DF bodies.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  12. #12
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    I shot with it for a week on the last Monument Valley PODAS. What I can confirm is AF is both faster-acting and locks-on quicker. I used it in "speed" AF mode and triple-tapped just like I do with the DF, but the difference was there was never a need for the third tap and rarely a need for even the second tap. When AF was assigned to the rear button, a single press was usually all that was needed. It's a solid improvement and definitely moves the Phase AF performance ahead of all other Medium Format competitors.
    Jack
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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Bill

    Does that mean you have the 645DF+?

    Is the auto focus on the DF+ a big jump forward or just a small improvement?

    At present I just feel like sitting tight for another year and then reviewing the options.


    Mal
    No, but I got to use them side by side on a studio test. I would say it is a small improvement, but a very important one. For me, it is enough of an improvement that the DF+ is a camera I would use and the DF isn't. Think early Canon DSLR. I am waiting to see if it will focus track anything, like a person walking or jogging. If you need it to focus like a DSLR, it won't, but it doesn't hunt like the DF and just feels more responsive. I've never used a H4D so I can't compare those, but I'm sure Doug could.

    Doug is the only person who can really answer questions about the DF+ as I think Digital Transitions is the only place in the U.S. that has them. I just got to play with one for a while before it got sent off to its new owner. Even the Phase reps had not received their personal cameras yet.

    There are a lot of things about the DF that I really dislike, the DF+ fixes the autofocus piece. Only you can decide if it is worth the upgrade or not. In my opinion, Phase One downplayed the improvement.

  14. #14
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    My concern with the DF is not the speed of auto focus, it is that auto focus functions more like my Canon if it is left on full auto focus mode. The camera just seems to lock onto the closest edge (with sufficient contrast) to the camera.

    The end result is that if you have a subject standing on grass (which has enough contrast) then the camera will focus on the grass which is no where near the middle of the view finder rather than the subject. With narrow depths of field this is a problem.

    If the camera had one precise AF point rather than an AF point which might as well cover the whole view finder, the accuracy and speed would be quite adequate for me.

    Sure it would be fantastic to have an array of selectable AF points but lets not fantasise about the perfect camera body for the brilliant IQ series back.

    Mal

  15. #15
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    Quick question, Jack. You said "definitely moves the Phase AF performance ahead of all other Medium Format competitors". Does that include the Pentax 645D? I have found the AF on that to be very good - quick, responsive and with multiple, selectable points.

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    Re: 645DF+

    If anyone is interested
    My DF+ Brand New for sale - http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/gear-f...ealed-box.html

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    Re: 645DF+

    I need a new body because mine is unrepairable.

    Need to decide to get a DF+ or a used DF. Please give a review. Thanks

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: 645DF+

    Just took a look at your

    www.dossantoslemone.com

    especially the l`arpege restaurant stuff and now I´m hungry !

    Good stuff ! Compliments !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: 645DF+

    Thank You very much Stefan If you are ever in Paris let me know! We can grab a beer and talk photography.

    Eric

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Just took a look at your

    www.dossantoslemone.com

    especially the l`arpege restaurant stuff and now I´m hungry !

    Good stuff ! Compliments !

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan

  20. #20
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    Re: 645DF+

    Has anyone have any updates regarding the DF+? By now some people should have them.

    Have anyone played with the micro adjust function?

    Thanks

  21. #21
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    Re: 645DF+

    I sold one to a member on here. He told me that the difference was HUGE! He said the autofocus problems he used to have with the DF (especially with the 300mm) have all been solved.

    Hope this helps...

    This is the email he sent me :
    One day I was trying to use the 300mm f/4.5 AF lens on the Phase One 645AF camera body. The focus motor was very very loud, and the stupid camera never did stop hunting. It just kept trying and trying forever. Even when the image was already in focus, the camera kept tying to focus some more. When I released my finger and half-pressed again, then the camera finally decided to stop focusing, and there was no more sound from the motor. Now I tried the same lens on the new 645DF+, and the focus is perfect. The sound is not loud, and the focus only takes one second in speed mode, and two seconds in accuracy mode. So they really have fixed it, and my 300 is now usable. The new battery will be a welcome addition too. The 300 was the worst. Short lenses like the 45mm didn't give me any focus problem. But I am very happy with the new camera. Thank you.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Has anyone have any updates regarding the DF+? By now some people should have them.

    Have anyone played with the micro adjust function?

    Thanks
    Consistent feedback us to has been: "like a DF, but with faster AF that hunts far less frequently".

    I think you're seeing the peak of the current design and concepts of the Mamiya 645. Fully matured and refined. By no means revolutionary, but the pinnacle of what evolutionary design gives you.

    If you own a DF I would only upgrade if use autofocus extensively, in which case I think it's a very worthwhile upgrade, or if you only own one body and want a backup body (i.e. keep your DF as a backup and add a DF+ as your new mainstay). If you are currently on an AF or older, then I'd say it's a clearly worthwhile upgrade all around.

    Also, we've not had one repair or DOA on any customer DF+ units so far. That's not saying that much given that we've only shipped moderate numbers and they've only been out there for weeks, but it's best point of data I can offer so far regarding claimed better reliability.

    Of course the obvious answer wherever practical is to test and compare using a demo, rental, or loaner from your dealer. We have several in rental/demo for our customers and prospective customers. After all differences in autofocus are heavily dependent on subject matter, lens, style of shooting, ambient lighting etc, and other people's impressions of autofocus can only go so far as to inform you on how it will impact you.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: 645DF+

    Doug,

    I thought it has micro adjust function correct me if I am wrong.

    So the only improvement is AF?

    Any other new features we should know about?


    Thanks

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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Doug,

    I thought it has micro adjust function correct me if I am wrong.

    So the only improvement is AF?

    Any other new features we should know about?
    There is an AF micro-adjust. I've used it. It's more "fine grain" than is probably necessary. It was hard, even in a very controlled environment to tell the difference between individual settings. In both bodies I tested the default setting (no adjustment) was the best setting.

    In five years I can only think of a few times when a customer had a bias in Autofocus. However, knowing that such a bias could be corrected by the customer using this feature rather than 5-7 business day service in NY is, I suppose, comforting.

    No other new features. Basically they looked at all their service reports on DFs and re-engineered and/or reinforced the parts that had failed to increase reliability/stability, made (IMO understated) improvements to the AF system, and added the AF micro adjust feature. It's exactly what it says it is: a DF+ is a DF that is better/improved :-). Nothing more, but nothing less.

    It also includes the Li-Ion battery with charger.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: 645DF+

    Thanks Doug.

    Btw do you know how much an used DF will cost approximately?

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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Thanks Doug.

    Btw do you know how much an used DF will cost approximately?
    Only that vaguely speaking good condition bodies with warranty from a good dealer will likely be in the 2's.

    Pricing on bodies is much more dependent on condition than backs since backs have no moving parts and, at least with P1, are pretty notorious for high reliability and longevity. I wouldn't buy a moderately beat up body (that I hang a 20k back and an important shoot on) for any price; with back's I'd be more willing to accept a moderately beat up back if it was working, well tested (by someone who really knows how to test the crap out of it) and came with some warranty/guarantee [assuming it was appropriate discounted for it's condition of course].

    Best to contact one of our sales team and they can keep you apprised as specific bodies with specific pricing/warranty/condition/availability come up.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: 645DF+

    I don't have the DF+ but I can attest to the Li-Ion battery being a big improvement to overall DF/back reliability in the field. If you've ever suffered lock-ups then you might want to give it a try. Not cheap but worked for me (and I bitched like hell about it).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I don't have the DF+ but I can attest to the Li-Ion battery being a big improvement to overall DF/back reliability in the field. If you've ever suffered lock-ups then you might want to give it a try. Not cheap but worked for me (and I bitched like hell about it).
    As you should have. That was a dark period indeed.

    It was especially frustrating because it was hard to duplicate or isolate the exact cause which was some combination of battery/power, firmware that needed revising, environmental factors, and in some cases bad hardware.

    Glad we have that behind us now.

    Anyone who has a DF should be getting very reliable performance from it. If not, please contact your dealer for the appropriate troubleshooting.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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  29. #29
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    Re: 645DF+

    Does DF+ Kit come with the lion battery? Thanks

  30. #30
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    Re: 645DF+

    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Does DF+ Kit come with the lion battery? Thanks

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    Re: 645DF+

    I briefly tested it out at DT last week. It's a big performance upgrade over the DF. Specifically, it doesn't hunt for focus nearly as much as the DF does. I would guesstimate the DF hunted 70% of the time and the DF+ hunts maybe 10% of the time. Although in the past i used the DF to shoot models and i tested the DF+ on Doug and Lance's faces... I still prefer the H4x by far. But the DF+ is now a very usable camera.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Okay thanks, does a new df+ BO come with lion battery?

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    Re: 645DF+

    I have had a few chances to play with it...Starting with at the CaptureOne 7 Pro launch and a couple of times since then.

    Autofocus seems to be the biggest improvement. Even in the dimly lit event space it was focusing surprisingly excellently. Personally I havn't had many problems with the 645DF autofocus, but the 645DF+ offers surprisingly improved AF which, if you use AF is certainly worth a look...

    Also the new battery is a big plus, but I believe that this can also be used with the 645DF.....

    Personally I have to believe that a new lens would be highly more useful then a new body especially considering as mentioned above the rumors of an entirely new body sometime this year.....

    I have had a chance to play and test the 28mm LS and it is most excellent, compared to the old version but of course it will fall short of a tech cam.

  34. #34
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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMerwin View Post
    I briefly tested it out at DT last week. It's a big performance upgrade over the DF. Specifically, it doesn't hunt for focus nearly as much as the DF does. I would guesstimate the DF hunted 70% of the time and the DF+ hunts maybe 10% of the time. Although in the past i used the DF to shoot models and i tested the DF+ on Doug and Lance's faces... I still prefer the H4x by far. But the DF+ is now a very usable camera.
    I don'y know if Doug and Lance's faces are a good test for models LOL
    -bob

  35. #35
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    Re: 645DF+

    I just got my DF+ like 2 hours ago.

    I cant focus in dim light. Very hard to get a lock on. I am sure it is DOA.

    My dealer will test it tomorrow.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    I just got my DF+ like 2 hours ago.

    I cant focus in dim light. Very hard to get a lock on. I am sure it is DOA.

    My dealer will test it tomorrow.
    Sure the front switch isn't turned to continuous (wherein the focus will, by definition never lock)?
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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  37. #37
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    Re: 645DF+

    It was set to S.

    I tested my DF+ with my friend's DF inside with window lighting. The DF+ was hard to get a lock on, it keeps rotating to find focus, Sometimes you cant focus at all. The DF was immediate to achieve focus when is pressed. Same object same lens same lighting.

    I dropped it to my dealer today, they tested it and they say they found nothing wrong with my DF+. Totally different experience from mine. I am doing another test tomorrow.

  38. #38
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    Re: 645DF+

    new test shows that the df+ is slower in autofocus than the DF. I tested in indoor low light

    Is this because of a brand new body? Does it need time to break in? I cant compare to another df+ because there is only 1 body at this moment.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Dan,
    I have a DF+. As Doug says, if the camera body switch is turned to continuous, I get the same trouble. With the switch on "S", the camera will beep and the green dot inside the viewfinder will light when focus is achieved. Testing now on ISO 100, indoors, fluorescent lighting, is giving exposure of one second at f/5.6. Estimated focus speed is one second in speed mode, two seconds in accuracy mode. No hunting. I didn't use a timer, so I'm not saying exactly one second. Also, the autofocus assist beam is coming on.

    Steve.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Hi Steve,

    I did use S on the body. The autofocus will rotate the lens a few turn before focus lock in is achieve. The other DF body can achieve focus faster than the DF+.

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    Re: 645DF+

    Sounds like you got a lemon. You should ask them to replace it.

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