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Thread: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

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    S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Hi there,

    Have a fantastic offer in hands to buy a Leica S2 + 70.

    Do I need it ? nop. But I always wanted to try MF and this seems a dream come true : I'm streching a bit the financials, but when can you buy a S2+lens+ extras for 10.000 euros and it comes with warranty still running ?

    Made my research and from my 29.000 photos that I took in the last 3 years of the M9, I was shocked to discovered few things :

    - 80% of the pictures are up to ISO 320, while the majority are at 160 so the low iso range of the S2 should be OK
    - 70% are with the 50mm. and I always thought that I was a 35mm FL lenght

    Anyway, long story cut short : how is the S2 with Pentax / Mamiya lens ? specifically WA ? This is my christmas gift to myself and have the OK of the Mrs .) But the thing is, I wont be able to buy a S lens for the next months ; so the ideas was to add a couple of lens : Pentax 67 and Mamiya via an adapter, specifically for 2 things : macro and WA. I know the Pentax 67 100 Macro is superb on the S2, but havent seen any WA or nearWA 3rd party lens on the S2 - why ? I know the 35 and 30mm S lens are superb, but... they are out of my reach for a few months. So I would like to buy a couple 3rd party lens, while getting money to a full fledged 30mm S lens.

    Pictures, recommendations please ?

    Best,

    GP

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    I think you would be fine in the short term, particularly if you stop down to f/11 or f/16 when possible. I think the main reason why people are not using 3rd party lenses quite so much is that the S lenses are so astonishingly good...if you have one in a reasonably similar focal length, there is seldom a reason to switch it out.

    You may also find that you gravitate more towards the 70mm lens in general for medium format...I know that I tended to use slightly longer lenses as the format increases...not sure exactly why though!

    I think you would be find with a well-chosen moderate wide angle. I would look at a 45-50mm or so, as these tend to be better than anything much wider. I have used the Hasselblad 50mm f/2.8 FE lens on the S2, and when it is stopped down a bit, it does pretty well. It cannot match the contrast or resolution of the S lenses, but it is very useful because it gets me something between my 35mm and my 70mm.

    I think you will be very happy with the S2, though, particularly if you like the file quality of the M9. They are not too different to work with, though the S2 has loads more resolution, as well as more dynamic range. The results out of the S2 are pretty spectacular...if you can get one with the 70mm lens for 10.000 euros, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me! (even though I half-choked saying that a 10.000 euro camera is a good deal...but I am continuously surprised that I actually do think the S2 was money very well spent. It is so outrageously good.)

    In the long run, however, are you sure you need the 30mm instead of the 35? 30mm to 70mm is a long jump, and 30mm is really very wide...personally, I have not found many situations where the 35mm was not wide enough, and I have found many where I wish it was actually a 40 or 45mm. People have different needs, of course, but if you can try one in person, I think you might see that 35mm is really quite wide already.

    These are examples with the 35mm:





    I know I took this at night with the 50mm f/2.8 at f/2.8. It's not that sharp, to be honest, but I think if you can focus accurately and stop down a bit, 3rd party lenses can be just fine. I know that the 80mm Hasselblad did the trick for me before I got a 70mm. I would recommend the stupidly expensive split-image microprism screen if you are going to use manual focus lenses though. I hated paying for it, but it makes a difference. That said, the AF is still the most accurate indicator for me...the tolerances are so tiny that I find that the AF system often does a better job in focusing the 120mm than I usually can, and I am still young and with good eyesight.

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Hi Stuart,

    Thanks for the reply and images ; I tried hundreds of NEF files from the D800E - its such a bargain, for 5000 euros or so, you can get a D800E new with a couple of fantastic Zeiss and speciality lens.

    But the problem starts in lightroom - man, you really have to fiddle with it for ages to get a nice picture out.

    And even still, that "magic" is not there. Few lenses have it, but...

    I love my M9. I dont love its limitations - critical focusing with macro work is impossible, clunky and its a drama to user filters for landscapes.

    I downloaded few S2 files and .. its there. its a big M9 ( in term of files ). few touches here and there, and everything pop's out fantasticly. it does have the Leica "mojo".

    I looked so many places for more price conscious deals : Contax 645&P45+ ( same price, but the battery system.. blergh.. but those Zeiss lenses.. yummm) , Pentax 645D (hate the body for the love of god. its a squarish brick ), Hasselblad H3DII ( too old technology and ISO past base sucks ), Hasselblad H4D ( great tricks with the AF, ISO is good, but its way too bigish and not very ergonomic, to my taste at least ).

    The S2 fits the package nicely : handheld perfectly possible, ISO range is good to my use, S lenses are gorgeous, sensor is nice, viewfinder ir spetacular... and now for 10.000 euros with lens and a few extras, its a done deal.

    The extra lenses, well - I will add the with time. Have lot of time to wonder about 30 or 35mm , but in the meantime, to have fun, I will buy a couple of Pentax and Mamiya lenses, which be later resold when the S counterparts will be bought. Not much money will be lost, and provides a stopgap. Of course S lenses are superior in every single way by a mile, but its nice to have a stopgap, cheaper lens to keep me entertained and honestly, to discover which FL I would use the most before plunging 5k onto a lens.

    I'm terribly excited to pick the camera, will happen this weekend. I already told the wife : beware, picture frenzy this weekend .)

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    I know half a dozen S2 owners and have not seen anyone use a less expensive wide angle . Several use the new Hasselblad adapter that preserves the AF capability of the H lenses on the S2 . They generally try to find a used 50 version2 , a 110/2 or the 300 ..because these are holes in the current S2 line . The adapter is around $2K so this isn t a low cost way of getting other vendors lenses. One owner uses the Mamiya 80/1.9 on a dumb adapter to gain a old school aesthetic .

    The new CS lenses will start shipping someday and when they do the S lenses will be available in larger quantities used . I ve seen the 35S as low as $4k but you have to really look to find one that inexpensive .

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    As a cheaper and very good alternative to the S lenses, consider second hand Hasselblad H lenses, via the new S-H adaptor. This adaptor is not cheap but then allows you to buy or rent a wide range of the H lenses and use them with autofocus and with the leaf shutter if you want, just like the CS lenses - some of the focal lengths available in the Hasselblad line are not even available in the Leica range (e.g. 50mm or 300mm). I have just bought a used HC 210 f4 and initial tests on the S2 via adapter are very encouraging - and I only paid 1300 for the lens (US$2100). I was also offered a used Leica S 180 f3.5 here but the shop wanted US$5200 equivalent for it (costs over US$7000 new). So I made a big saving with the Hassy lens... and it autofocuses and works with the leaf shutter and is very sharp, contrasty, has nice bokeh and good colors. So this may be a better way for you than using old Pentax or Mamyia glass with manual focusing and working aperture metering. Bear in mind that the S2 is absolutely unforgiving as far as focus accuracy is concerned and it is not easy to focus the old MF lenses accurately just visually (I know, I tried to use the 180 mm CFE before, via the V adapter). On the other hand, the AF system is very accurate on the S2 and my recommendation is to use it if you can (my favorite setting is camera on MF with the AF function assigned to the rear thumb button). Also you can find a lot more used H lenses on the market than Leica S, rental options of course are also much better. Congratulations on you decision re the S2, you will not regret it. (sorry for repeating some of Roger's points above - we posted within 15 minutes from each other and his reply wasn't here yet when I started typing mine :-)

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    I would tend to stick with the H adapter and some Hassy H lenses to fill the gaps also most users tend to process in Lightroom for the S2 and it should have corrections for the wides over any older Mamiya / Pentax counterparts. Also the Hassy lenses are technically newer with better coatings and such and we already know it can handle 40 mpx sensors in the Hassy line. Now if the 2k seems like a lot to spend initially you have to think if it got 4 lenses to use from it than its a extra 500 dollar per lens which is not bad . Than figure on the other side of the coin lets say 5k per S lens than that 20K for 4 lenses, so in the end it would be a pretty big cost savings.
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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Thanks for insights !

    Guy, indeed your logic makes sense.

    Again, the S2 is reserved for me, I'm going to pick it up on Sunday, I'm shaking with excitment Have to say 90% of the problem of getting it, is due to this forum, Guy, Jack, Marc ( fotograz ), Landscapelover, RVB, lloyd, Bill Browne and many, many others, who keep constant posting MFD and IQ/P+ images and I drooled for years and years.

    I left the DSLR way ago ( last one was a D2x ) and went the Leica route ( M ). But these days I want something different, want to see through the viewfinder, want a bright one, want magical lenses.. and that comes all together in the S2. Was out of my reach ( alas, I'm not a paid photographer ) but since this deal came up, I'm going finally join the "big guys" in MFD.

    Poor me that my images are going to be rubbish but hey, at least I'm going to be happy taking them holding a S2.

    Will come back to this forum now more and more and learn even more from you guys and posting my findings, observations and doubts.

    Guy / Jack : what a great community you guys have created here

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Thanks but that is due to you great members here. Im not a Hassy expert on glass but I do now the Hassy 110 is really nice and there 50 along with if you need really wide the 28mm. There are some Hassy H shooters here that can give you some ideas on glass. Good luck we are all excited for you.

    One thing you can do is rent some Hassy glass after you get the adapter in hand. Some good news our friends at Capture Integration are now a Hassy dealer and they do have some used glass on hand plus they are Leica dealers as well. Also same with Camera West another sponsor here and excellent shop. Both dealers I am sure do international sales as well just give them a jingle.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Quote Originally Posted by proenca View Post
    Thanks for insights !

    Guy, indeed your logic makes sense.

    Again, the S2 is reserved for me, I'm going to pick it up on Sunday, I'm shaking with excitment Have to say 90% of the problem of getting it, is due to this forum, Guy, Jack, Marc ( fotograz ), Landscapelover, RVB, lloyd, Bill Browne and many, many others, who keep constant posting MFD and IQ/P+ images and I drooled for years and years.

    I left the DSLR way ago ( last one was a D2x ) and went the Leica route ( M ). But these days I want something different, want to see through the viewfinder, want a bright one, want magical lenses.. and that comes all together in the S2. Was out of my reach ( alas, I'm not a paid photographer ) but since this deal came up, I'm going finally join the "big guys" in MFD.

    Poor me that my images are going to be rubbish but hey, at least I'm going to be happy taking them holding a S2.

    Will come back to this forum now more and more and learn even more from you guys and posting my findings, observations and doubts.

    Guy / Jack : what a great community you guys have created here
    Congratulations ... I think you will LOVE the S2 I know I do. It is indeed the big brother to the M9 as far as the look and feel of the files. It's my go to camera now, with the Hasselblad H4D/60 mostly doing duty in the studio tethered to a computer ... (Hasselblad's Phocus software tethered solution if far better than the one for the S2 in Light-room).

    It's tough to find really good Medium Format wide-angle lenses to adapt to the S2. That the S35 and S30 are so darned good doesn't make it any easier. I suspect the new S24mm will also be stellar.

    I use an array of Hasselblad H lenses to fill in the lens gaps right now ... the HCD 28/4, and HC50-II help in the wider applications ... both are excellent and both benefit from the Leica provided software correction plug-in for Light-Room. Beyond the fact that the lenses are fully auto stop-down and AF, PLUS can be used in both Leaf shutter or focal plane modes ... the Exif data is recorded so the software DAC corrections can be made in LR.

    I have the Leica 120/2.5 Macro ... but do not use it for true Macro work very often because it only does a 1:2 ratio ... where my Hasselblad HC-120/4 does 1:1.

    Best of luck!

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post

    These are examples with the 35mm:



    apologies for the thread drift, but after seeing these I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard.
    Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Thanks Doug. The 35mm is really incredible. Neither of those are with any real post-work other than white balance and tone settings either. The lens is amazing. Here are two sample crops...more noise in this photo than normal as it was quite a long exposure.



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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Quote Originally Posted by proenca View Post
    ....The S2 fits the package nicely : handheld perfectly possible, ISO range is good to my use, S lenses are gorgeous, sensor is nice, viewfinder ir spetacular... and now for 10.000 euros with lens and a few extras, its a done deal.

    The extra lenses, well - I will add the with time. Have lot of time to wonder about 30 or 35mm , but in the meantime, to have fun, I will buy a couple of Pentax and Mamiya lenses, which be later resold when the S counterparts will be bought. Not much money will be lost, and provides a stopgap. Of course S lenses are superior in every single way by a mile, but its nice to have a stopgap, cheaper lens to keep me entertained and honestly, to discover which FL I would use the most before plunging 5k onto a lens.

    I'm terribly excited to pick the camera, will happen this weekend. I already told the wife : beware, picture frenzy this weekend .)
    Congratulations. You will really enjoy the S2 and the images it is capable of producing. Also, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how versatile the S 70mm is in use. I got by with the 70mm as my only lens for almost a year and it was a great experience. Also, as you know the S2 loves light and low ISOs are best, but 640 can be useable. See below.

    Laura Wood

    Attachment 66148

    A couple other ISO 640 images can be seen here.

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Congratulations ... I think you will LOVE the S2 I know I do. It is indeed the big brother to the M9 as far as the look and feel of the files (...)

    -Marc
    Marc, you are spot on. Picked it up today, after driving 400 miles *sigh* but after taking a quick test pictures, oh boy...

    well the drooling started before actually - I never had hold a S2 before, so the shock was immense : the viewfinder ( holy christ, ... me and call me Maria, its HUGE ), the damping of the shutter ( having tried a couple of other MF bodies which the name wont be told , I was very pleasant surprised with the damping of the shutter - well done Leica ) but one thing I was not expecting : the weight and balance of the body. The weight is not half as bad as I predicted and the balance is superb. It feels just right.

    Its really really nice that Leica designed this camera from the ground up and it shows. So far I'm eagerly reading manuals and getting familiar with the camera.

    The few test shots blew off my socks, that 3D "pop" is all there..

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Thanks Doug. The 35mm is really incredible. Neither of those are with any real post-work other than white balance and tone settings either. The lens is amazing. Here are two sample crops...more noise in this photo than normal as it was quite a long exposure.
    Stuart, I hate you my friend. I just spent a huge amount of cash in a camera and you got me drooling with your crops. To be 100% honest, I looked at your crops, didnt noticed they were crops of the above image and though "meh, nothing special". Then I read they were crops. Compared with the image. And I went "holy..."

    Can't wait to get the camera for a decent spin.

    Thank you ( sort of, I'm aleady counting pennies for the 35mm for the samples


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Congratulations. You will really enjoy the S2 and the images it is capable of producing. Also, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how versatile the S 70mm is in use. I got by with the 70mm as my only lens for almost a year and it was a great experience. Also, as you know the S2 loves light and low ISOs are best, but 640 can be useable. See below.

    A couple other ISO 640 images can be seen
    Mark,

    First of all, great image in my humble opinion.

    After having the OK to spend 10.000 euros on the camera by the Mrs and still keeping the M9, I'm a fortunate man. Hence, the 70mm will be my only lens for a while. When I bought my first Leica ( M7, many moons ago when a digital Leica was only a dream ) I made a mistake - I bought three lens with it. Was used to zooms ( coming from a dSLR background ) and it drove me nuts the primes and the rangefinder. After a while, I just kept the one with the FL I was most confortable with and sold the other two. For one year and a half I forced myself with one prime. And loved it. Not having to swap lens every 2 minutes was great and I just concentrate on taking pictures. To be 100% honest, the S2 is quite unfamiliar territory to me : dSLR-ish again, new slow speeds to get used to, new technique to learn, new to MF. So not having more lenses for a while is actually going to be my priority - to concentrate on getting to know MF, the S2 and how it behaves.





    Anyway, thank everyone for your words. Finally, I made it into MFD ( please dont spoil my absolute histerical moment today and say the S2 isnt really MF, I just dont care
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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    The S2 is a great camera. If you are looking to adapt a wide, the Pentax 67 lenses will not be ideal--the 35mm is a fisheye and the 45mm never had a great reputation on the 645D.

    But enjoy. 90% of my work with the 645D is done with a single lens. If you need wide, just make a stitched pano.

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Handling it in person really makes a difference, doesn't it? I was only mildly curious about the S2 until I made the mistake of picking one up at a dealer in Germany. That was it...I got it from that point on. Half the gear I owned went on the auction block, and I wound up with one monster camera. The quality of the results are unlike any other camera I have used, other than perhaps the Mamiya 7II and Hasselblad 203FE (not that I am comparing them directly, but in terms of a camera that just always seems to be technically excellent). In terms of resolution, color fidelity, contrast...nothing competes. At least not that I have used! And I think the brilliance of it is precisely that it was designed from the ground up. Leica decided on a larger than full frame format, but not an exceptionally large sensor. I think by doing so they found the sweet-spot in terms of size, quality and usability. The lenses don't have to cover quite so large an image circle, so they can be sharper and faster than their competitors. The camera itself doesn't need quite so large a mirror. The lenses perfectly suit the body, out resolve the sensor, it's all sealed, properly balanced and so on. There are quirks, of course (the menu system for example...some love it...I do not. Or worse yet, the scrolling!), but the most commonly used features are brilliantly implemented. Enough gushing though...

    Meanwhile, sorry about the 35mm stuff! Honestly, I use the 70mm much more often. It is smaller and balances even better with the camera, and the angle of view really allows for flexibility. It can feel quite wide indeed, if you give yourself space.
    For example, all of these were taken with the 70mm. It is very flexible!











    Sorry if this is way too many examples...just trying to show the versatility. I completely agree with Mark about this...you can get away with a lot with just the one lens!
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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Handling it in person really makes a difference, doesn't it? I was only mildly curious about the S2 until I made the mistake of picking one up at a dealer in Germany. That was it...I got it from that point on. Half the gear I owned went on the auction block, and I wound up with one monster camera. The quality of the results are unlike any other camera I have used, other than perhaps the Mamiya 7II and Hasselblad 203FE (not that I am comparing them directly, but in terms of a camera that just always seems to be technically excellent). In terms of resolution, color fidelity, contrast...nothing competes. At least not that I have used! And I think the brilliance of it is precisely that it was designed from the ground up. Leica decided on a larger than full frame format, but not an exceptionally large sensor. I think by doing so they found the sweet-spot in terms of size, quality and usability. The lenses don't have to cover quite so large an image circle, so they can be sharper and faster than their competitors. The camera itself doesn't need quite so large a mirror. The lenses perfectly suit the body, out resolve the sensor, it's all sealed, properly balanced and so on. There are quirks, of course (the menu system for example...some love it...I do not. Or worse yet, the scrolling!), but the most commonly used features are brilliantly implemented. Enough gushing though...

    Meanwhile, sorry about the 35mm stuff! Honestly, I use the 70mm much more often. It is smaller and balances even better with the camera, and the angle of view really allows for flexibility. It can feel quite wide indeed, if you give yourself space.
    For example, all of these were taken with the 70mm. It is very flexible!


    Sorry if this is way too many examples...just trying to show the versatility. I completely agree with Mark about this...you can get away with a lot with just the one lens!
    Holding it made all the difference ; I've read so many conflicting reports : its light, its heavy, balance is great, the lens make it front heavy, 70mm has no caracther, 70mm bokeh is gorgeous, etc etc.

    When I had it on my hand, it was gorgeous. Its not featherweight, but for MF its really nice. Its just a big 1Ds-alike. But the balance makes all the difference. Its just right. Camera is working with me, the weight is there to bring stability and doesnt tilt the camera either way.

    To be honest, still bit lost at the menu ( normal, have the camera for the first 3 hours ) but I like it. Love the simplicity. Not big fan of the way to make things scroll though. Gotta get used to this.

    Thanks for the examples. Hopefully soon I will have my very own to share eheheh

    Best

    GP

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Here's my new S2, received last Thursday and now fitted with the Micro-prism screen that arrived yesterday. I'm thrilled and looking forward to shooting some frames during the holiday break.

    With the V adapter, it fits beautifully with my existing Hasselblad kit and allows me some breathing space to upgrade to S lenses in the near future. The way this is looking, I'll be selling more M stuff to pay for a more complete lens set and could end up cash positive.

    I've really enjoyed shooting film, but I'm hoping that I can manipulate the S2 files to my satisfaction. If so, I've more film cameras and a nice scanner to release. An S2 and a small, cheap P&S is my goal.

    Thought there might be someone here who'd like to see a size comparison with a Hasselblad, plus a pic with all my system stuff that can be used on the S2.

    Thanks to all the posters on this Forum that have generously shared their experiences and knowledge. Much appreciated.

    Gary
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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    I used to shoot the 4/28 as well as the 2/100, both excellent lenses, especially the 100 is stunning. Although I do not know how the results are without Hasselblad lens correction - either from Phocus or LR4. But I guess you can do it via LR4 also if you are shooting with the S2.

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    I don't know about V lenses but I believe that Leica developed profiles for H lenses and handed them over to Adobe.

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Pentax made profiles for their FA lenses for the 645D, but not their earlier manual focus A series lenses, although optically some are identical. If the 645D is any indication, the lack of profiles for a lens is not a big deal--I have shot to A series lenses and a 67 lens on the 645D and I don't mind not having a profile for them.

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    Re: S2 with 3d party lenses ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo View Post
    I've really enjoyed shooting film, but I'm hoping that I can manipulate the S2 files to my satisfaction...An S2 and a small, cheap P&S is my goal.
    I kind of did the same thing. When running my own darkroom became impractical, I made the jump to a Pentax 645D and financed it with my film gear. While not a substitute (I do not believe using one process to imitate another), I have been really happy with the move. I think you will be pleased with the S2 files, especially if you print and like to print large (4'x3').

    I just picked my P&S--the Sony RX1 ("cheap" is relative). It seems to be a nice complement to the 645D. The quality is certainly there where the work from both cameras can take the same stage.

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