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Thread: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

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    Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Hello :

    Are there any Alpa Cameras that have Tilt built-in the body itself ? I ask as when I went through the literature, I did not find any.

    I have read about Alpa Tilt Adapters, but I believe they work for 80mm and longer focal length lenses - If this is the only way, then how does one use tilt with say a 32mm lens ?

    If I have the above wrong, do kindly correct me.


    Thanks,

    Jai

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    No tilt in the body.

    There are two tilt-adapter sizes, 34mm and 17mm. The former requires SB34 lenses (SB = short barrel, 80mm or longer), the latter either SB34 (plus a distancer) or SB17 lenses (32mm or longer).

    Have a look at the Alpa wbsite, lots of pictures and explanations, e.g., http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lense...pter-17mm.html

    Chris
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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Maybe you're confusing with Arca which has tilt built in to all three of the bodies and therefore tilt works with every lens (no special version of the lens and no adapter required) including the 23HR (RM, RL, Factum)?

    They do sound similar.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Maybe you're confusing with Arca which has tilt built in to all three of the bodies and therefore tilt works with every lens (no special version of the lens and no adapter required) including the 23HR (RM, RL, Factum)?

    They do sound similar.
    Since the OP mentions that he's read up on the Alpa tilt adapters, I suspect not.

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    You're right I missed that. Though it wouldn't be the first time I saw someone researching tech cameras start to mis-associate part of their research of one brand with another. Just think of the number of times you've seen someone mis-name Alpa as Alpha.

    Hopefully someone will jump in and decode the combination of SB lens lengths and TS adapters Alpa produces that allow for tilt and swing.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 7th December 2012 at 09:10.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    The Alpa system actually supports T/S with the SB 32 HR & 17mm SB T/S adapter. With the 34mm T/S adapter the widest lens is the SB 50/4 HR now and no longer just 80mm minimum.

    As Chris mentioned, the T/S is not in the body or at the lens axis but it can be placed either in front of the body or on the rear to t/s the back. It's a little trickier to use because when you tilt you typically have to also adjust composition too which means using a ground glass, live view or more trial & adjust with a digital back.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Thanks all for the replies & clarifications -

    I now have a better understanding - Earlier, I was only aware of the 34mm T/S adapter.

    OK - I then have a follow up question -:

    Can two 17mm T/S adapters be used together, one between the camera body and lens, the other between the camera body and digital back ? ( i.e. 17mm x 2 = 34mm, while using SB lenses ? )

    I ask if this were possible as then one would have ability to T/S at the lens and back plane making the camera more like a Film View Cameras, ( i.e. like Sinar F1/F2 & P1 & other manufacturers/models etc ). Would be good for product photography !

    ( Do excuse the question if this is not possible - I have experience with the Sinar F2 that permitted T/S at both the lens & film plane and found it useful for product and architectural photography - Trying to figure if there was a way to regain similar controls with tech cameras as I have yet to shoot with any of them )



    Thanks,

    Jai



    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    No tilt in the body.

    There are two tilt-adapter sizes, 34mm and 17mm. The former requires SB34 lenses (SB = short barrel, 80mm or longer), the latter either SB34 (plus a distancer) or SB17 lenses (32mm or longer).

    Have a look at the Alpa wbsite, lots of pictures and explanations, e.g., ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - ALPA multi-use adapter, 17 mm

    Chris
    Last edited by jvora; 7th December 2012 at 12:44.

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    A SB34 lens can be used with 2x T/S 17mm adapters. I haven't tried it myself but I would expect that you could stack them in front or behind with one aligned for tilt and the other for swing. If you had a grip on the body I could see that you may run in to interference issues with swing, although it depends on the body. (As an example, I have the 34mm T/S adapter and when mounted in front when the optical viewfinder is in place I have to use a 10mm spacer to raise the VF. I'd have to check with my STC but I think a left swing orientation in front might be difficult with the right grip - I'd just flip it and put it on the rear of the body).

    It doesn't matter whether you stack two adapters together or have one in front of the body and the other behind. Two SB 17 T/S adapters stacked together for the same tilt (i.e. 12 degrees) might interfere but again you could just put one in front and the other on the rear if so.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    A SB34 lens can be used with 2x T/S 17mm adapters. I haven't tried it myself but I would expect that you could stack them in front or behind with one aligned for tilt and the other for swing. If you had a grip on the body I could see that you may run in to interference issues with swing, although it depends on the body. (As an example, I have the 34mm T/S adapter and when mounted in front when the optical viewfinder is in place I have to use a 10mm spacer to raise the VF. I'd have to check with my STC but I think a left swing orientation in front might be difficult with the right grip - I'd just flip it and put it on the rear of the body).

    It doesn't matter whether you stack two adapters together or have one in front of the body and the other behind. Two SB 17 T/S adapters stacked together for the same tilt (i.e. 12 degrees) might interfere but again you could just put one in front and the other on the rear if so.
    Attaching the T/S adapter to the rear of your STC and use it for tilt or swing ,
    rather than as spacer , will change the perspective of your image .
    When you use the T/S adapter on the front , you could also unscrew the handgrip . I think it is no issue with the new T/S type .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Jürgen,

    Yes, absolutely there's a difference in the view depending on front/rear tilts/swings. I was really just talking about whether it could physically be done. Stacking a tilt & swing is also different than a compound tilt/swing at the lens axis too.

    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    I wonder how you can properly focus with your technical camera using T/S other than having a back with Focus Mask .
    In the moment I can only think of using a GG .
    What are sufficient methods ?
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Personally I only ever use tilt with my STC, SB 90 HRW & IQ160 and do indeed use adjustments with focus mask review. I have a large rodenstock loupe that allows me easily to check the LCD in any light and with perfect view of the 100% image. I find live view problematic for this outdoors although I do use it quite often these days for composition.

    I have the GG with bellows but to be honest I gave up on that a long time ago due to the small image size and was using a 4x loupe. It isn't anything like the relatively simple process I was used to with 4x5 even with the bright Alpa glass. I might revisit at some point if I get a higher magnification loupe. I also disliked removing and refitting the back too.

    I know that in a studio or still life setting with more light and controlled environment that it's easier but I found it tough to do outdoors. (Heck, I can even fine tune focus with live view effectively under those conditions). I know that others do use tilts with the Alpa in the field though such as Bob (RGA).

    By contrast, I found that using a camera like the Cambo with tilt/swing on the lens axis much easier to manage. I can almost tilt that system by the numbers (for near/far to infinity - tilt degrees based on camera height above plane of focus for example) with just small adjustments and using focus mask review to tune it. The advantage of tilting and everything else staying put and not shifting on you is very real, at least when out in the field I found.

    I came to the realization that if I need a deep focus range that I personally can focus stack a lot faster and more reliably than futz around with tilts on the Alpa. I have the T/S adapter but it is rare, and normally only when I force myself, that I use it. Unfortunately it means that I have to spend more time post-processing vs the satisfaction of getting it all done at shooting time, which is great when you manage it.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    I am aware of the ALPA article : Parallel Shift and Scheimpflug Lens Tilt
    from Walter E.Schön . Also I have attended a Linhof workshop about that topic some years ago , where Walter E. Schön was also teaching that topic .
    That is all great , but it is all theory .

    Now , how do you guys calculate , adjust , control and handle the tilt/swing
    amount with your ALPA , ARCA , CAMBO and LINHOF technical cameras .
    I am thinking of landscape , architecture and also subjects within 5m distance .
    I am mainly asking for your technic when your back does not have
    Focus Mask .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by jvora View Post
    Can two 17mm T/S adapters be used together, one between the camera body and lens, the other between the camera body and digital back ? ( i.e. 17mm x 2 = 34mm, while using SB lenses ? )
    Yes, this is possible. But, according to Alpa, you can't stack two 17mm T/S adapters, so one got to go to the front, one to the back of the body.

    Chris

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Are you sure that you can't stack the T/S adapters? I can see why it might not work for two adapters to be back-back for the same tilt or swing (i.e. to get more tilt/swing) due to the adjusters interfering. However, what if they are at 90 degrees to each other?
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    No, and I don't understand why this shouldn't be possible but that's what Alpa wrote in an email. I haven't seen a 17mm TS adapter in person, so I have no idea what prevents stacking.

    Chris

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I am aware of the ALPA article : Parallel Shift and Scheimpflug Lens Tilt
    from Walter E.Schön . Also I have attended a Linhof workshop about that topic some years ago , where Walter E. Schön was also teaching that topic .
    That is all great , but it is all theory .

    Now , how do you guys calculate , adjust , control and handle the tilt/swing
    amount with your ALPA , ARCA , CAMBO and LINHOF technical cameras .
    I am thinking of landscape , architecture and also subjects within 5m distance .
    I am mainly asking for your technic when your back does not have
    Focus Mask .
    I shift and set the tripod to get a starting height value. For near/far images I can look up the normal tilt angle and start there. After that it becomes tilt/move/shoot/adjust repeat until acceptable.

    Btw, the Alpa paper is excellent. I'm a student of stroebel myself (ok, book student). The article you reference is actually pretty practical.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Alpa Cameras & Tilting Lens Plane

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    ...how do you guys calculate , adjust , control and handle the tilt/swing amount with your ALPA , ARCA , CAMBO and LINHOF technical cameras...
    Jurgen, the Techno has on-axis tilt and swing where the lenses are tilted at approximately the nodal points of the lens. It is the same as focusing any view camera. You can use the iterative approach, Merklinger's methods or any traditional way you know.

    As the back has no tilt/swing you can't frame then adjust the parallels (what I used to do), so you have to level the back first.

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