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Leica S2 question

AreBee

Member
The short answer on DoF is that...It's a zero-sum game.
That is what I thought, but wasn't quite sure if the sum was zero, or simply something close to it. Thank you. :)

Depending on what apertures the S2 can set...
You have just reminded me of another question I have for S2 owners, and this applies to aperture control as well as shutter speed control: am I correct in saying that even though the shutter speed dial on the body has increments of full stops, that (presumably through the menu) one can set the camera increments to half stops? I assume that 1/3rd stop increments are not possible?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I wonder if Marc sees this post if he could comment on the comparison between the H series finders and the Leica S2 finder?
The H4 finder is brighter and more neutral, and the size is larger by virtue of the format ratio.

I just compared the H4D with a HC-80/2.8 verses the S2P with a S70/2.5 ... the Hasselblad finder is slightly brighter even through a max aperture of f/2.8. When the HC100/2.2 lens is mounted the H4D finder is obviously even brighter. In comparison, the S2P finder is a wee touch warm ... something I never noticed until doing a side-by-side.

Both are quite bright and very nice to work with. Since max aperture is what we are looking through ... the S lenses fair very well because most of them are quite fast for MF ... so a S-120/2.5 will be brighter viewing than the HC-120/4.

-Marc
 

RVB

Member
The H4 finder is brighter and more neutral, and the size is larger by virtue of the format ratio.

I just compared the H4D with a HC-80/2.8 verses the S2P with a S70/2.5 ... the Hasselblad finder is slightly brighter even through a max aperture of f/2.8. When the HC100/2.2 lens is mounted the H4D finder is obviously even brighter. In comparison, the S2P finder is a wee touch warm ... something I never noticed until doing a side-by-side.

Both are quite bright and very nice to work with. Since max aperture is what we are looking through ... the S lenses fair very well because most of them are quite fast for MF ... so a S-120/2.5 will be brighter viewing than the HC-120/4.

-Marc
I have also used both the S2 and h4D and completely agree...
 
One thing to consider is that there are some pretty good deals on the S2 now that the new S has been announced. Granted "deals" is a relative term, but I have seen new S2s for $15,995 and demos for $13,995. Plus, I believe you can do even better if you want to go the used route. In my mind, the S2 looks a lot better at these prices and I bought one for full price when it was first available.
 

AreBee

Member
One thing to consider is that there are some pretty good deals on the S2 now that the new S has been announced.
I have seen an ex-demo body for £8000 (~$12900), which I consider to be a bargain...relatively speaking. ;)

In my mind, the S2 looks a lot better at these prices and I bought one for full price when it was first available.
I agree. While the body obviously plays its part in image quality, I consider it only as the doorway through which to gain access to the S-lenses. By far the greatest appeal of the S-System to me is the lenses. I like the look and feel etc of the body, but remember that it would be sited on a tripod when being used. Aesthetic features are nice to have but not real considerations for me.

What is the consensus on negotiating price when it comes to new MF gear, like the S-lenses I am considering? Does the fact that the name is Leica, that the short focal length S-lenses have only relatively recently become available, and that we are at the premium end of the photography market mean that Dealers won't move on the price they list? Or is it quite common to negotiate a price less than that on the ticket?
 
My experience may be different that others, but I have found it difficult to get deals on new stock, current Leica products of any kind. It is possible to find deals on used or demo lenses though - some have been on the buy/sell forum here. I believe it will be even easier to find good prices on S lenses once the CS and the 30-90mm zoom lenses become available. I have considered selling my 35mm to help fund the purchase of the 30-90mm and I bet I am not alone in those thoughts.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
This pixel peeping problem comes around again and again. The pixel resolution has no impact on DoF which is based on standard viewing distances. Judging DoF at 100% monitor view is not really useful. Just like DoF never change with film resolutions, the pixel resolution does not impact it either. When pixel peeping, you are no longer at a viewing distance that is meaningful. And the more pixels, the less meaningful it becomes.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
The H4 finder is brighter and more neutral, and the size is larger by virtue of the format ratio.

I just compared the H4D with a HC-80/2.8 verses the S2P with a S70/2.5 ... the Hasselblad finder is slightly brighter even through a max aperture of f/2.8. When the HC100/2.2 lens is mounted the H4D finder is obviously even brighter. In comparison, the S2P finder is a wee touch warm ... something I never noticed until doing a side-by-side.

Both are quite bright and very nice to work with. Since max aperture is what we are looking through ... the S lenses fair very well because most of them are quite fast for MF ... so a S-120/2.5 will be brighter viewing than the HC-120/4.

-Marc
Marc, many thanks.

Pretty much as I would have expected but nice to have confirmation.

Keith
 

Paratom

Well-known member
few things, but S2 experienced owners please correct me :

70mm is 2,5 not, 2,8

comparing *not scientific tested in anyway* this to 35mm, I would say its a 50/55mm with 1.2 or 1.4 aperture

handheld shooting with the S2 is perfectly possible - altough heavier than the D800 and pro slrs, its weight is more balanced. the weight of the S2 actually helps getting the camera stable, rather than a photographer trying to fight it. for example, the 24/70 AFS on a D800 is front heavy and seems like a pendulum. Here doesnt - camera + lens are extremely well balanced: also the shutter is quite well dampned when it comes to MF

no live view indeed

wallet lightness is visibile from a mile off :)
Yes, it is f2.5. You could compare it to an f1.4/50 (or little longer actually) lens, however I dont know any 50mm for ff which is wide open as good as the Leica 70mm wide open.

Of course the S2 is good for handholding and I do it all the time. What I meant is you want to keep ISO down (160 or 320 if possible, 640 is ok, 1250 really if there is no other choice). So if someone likes shooting at f16 or f22 he/she will run in to problems handholding the camera.
 

AreBee

Member
This pixel peeping problem comes around again and again. The pixel resolution has no impact on DoF which is based on standard viewing distances. Judging DoF at 100% monitor view is not really useful. Just like DoF never change with film resolutions, the pixel resolution does not impact it either. When pixel peeping, you are no longer at a viewing distance that is meaningful. And the more pixels, the less meaningful it becomes.
I agree that DOF is not related to film/sensor resolution. I never claimed otherwise. :)

Diffraction is not related to resolution either, but that doesn't stop the effect of it from being increasingly evident as resolution increases, for the same aperture setting. I do understand the reason why.

If stopping down the S2 to an aperture that returned the same DOF as the D800E exhibited the effect of diffraction to a greater extent then, for me, I would be losing something by moving to the S2. Apparently the fact that resolution of the two camera sensors is as near as damnit equal means that the pro's and con's effectively negate each other.
 

malmac

Member
Just a question - with the S2 using the Hasselblad leaf shutter lenses - does the S2 use the leaf shutter in the Hassey lens?

If the answer is yes, does the S2 still activate the focal plane shutter like the Phase One camera does, or have they sorted out a better solution for avoiding unnecessary vibration?


Mal
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Just a question - with the S2 using the Hasselblad leaf shutter lenses - does the S2 use the leaf shutter in the Hassey lens?

If the answer is yes, does the S2 still activate the focal plane shutter like the Phase One camera does, or have they sorted out a better solution for avoiding unnecessary vibration?


Mal
Yes, and yes.

-Marc
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Just some quick notes here on depth of field. I am not going to ponder the technical aspects, just more or less how it appears to my eye. I think the easiest and most effective way to treat it, is as if the lenses were available to you on 35mm. I don't think you will have much difficulty getting wide depth of field out of the wide lenses -- 35mm and wider. These lenses are already considered wide angles on 35mm, and provided you stop them down a bit and don't focus on things that are extremely near the camera, they will provide you with very generous depth of field. I find that at f/11, the 35mm S lens provides extremely high resolution over the entire image, near to far, and it also produces beautiful ray-like starbursts in the specular highlights.
Like this:

or this:


I suspect that you will find more of an issue regarding depth of field with the longer lenses. There is significantly less depth of field in the 70mm lens than there would be in a 50mm on 35mm cameras. The 120mm macro is of course even shallower. But assuming you have enough distance, they still show good DOF. This image, for example, is printed at 1mX1.5m and looks just great. You can see the snow in the foreground is not completely sharp, but the streetlights are good all the way through. The fence at the end is not sharp per se at close inspection of the huge print, but from a normal viewing distance everything looks very sharp. It was taken at f/11 with the 120mm lens.


I find that f/11 to f/12.5 seems to be where diffraction starts to come into play. F/16 is still sharp, but noticeably less sharp (or maybe it's just less microcontrast?) than f/5.6 or f/4 where a lot of S lenses hit their peak contrast. f/22 is noticeably softer, and I don't think there is much reason to use it other than in incredibly bright situations where you want a slower shutter speed and don't have an ND filter...i.e. not often!

Overall, though, I get this nagging feeling that your technical requirements would be met just as well (or maybe better) by the D800E, and that your interest in the S2 is just that very typical "grass is always greener" equipment anxiety. The S2 will not make your work better, at least not in a way that will make people stand up and take notice. But if you are happier working with it, and you feel it improves your work, let's you make what you want to make more easily and enjoyably, then it is money well spent! It did that for me, and I think for Kurt, Marc and a lot of other S2 users. It is a hell of a camera, but don't think for an instant that if any of us had "just" a D800E, that it would be holding us back technically! It's not that these differences aren't there, it's that they are subtle.

I do think you are absolutely on the right track to chase the S2 lenses though. They are the biggest strength of the system. I think Leica basically sat down and tried to make the best lenses they possible could, designed for a larger, high MP sensor, and then made the body fit the lenses. The only point I would echo would be the one regarding not waiting for lenses that are not already out. If you truly "need" a 14mm equivalent, the S2 is not for you. They will never make it. Or at least, I can't imagine why they would. I would not be surprised if the 24mm was the widest they make. In fact, I would hope they would stop mucking around with super wides and start making something normal! How about a 40-45mm for heaven's sake?
Enough ranting...
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Just some quick notes here on depth of field. I am not going to ponder the technical aspects, just more or less how it appears to my eye. I think the easiest and most effective way to treat it, is as if the lenses were available to you on 35mm. I don't think you will have much difficulty getting wide depth of field out of the wide lenses -- 35mm and wider. These lenses are already considered wide angles on 35mm, and provided you stop them down a bit and don't focus on things that are extremely near the camera, they will provide you with very generous depth of field. I find that at f/11, the 35mm S lens provides extremely high resolution over the entire image, near to far, and it also produces beautiful ray-like starbursts in the specular highlights.
Like this:

or this:


I suspect that you will find more of an issue regarding depth of field with the longer lenses. There is significantly less depth of field in the 70mm lens than there would be in a 50mm on 35mm cameras. The 120mm macro is of course even shallower. But assuming you have enough distance, they still show good DOF. This image, for example, is printed at 1mX1.5m and looks just great. You can see the snow in the foreground is not completely sharp, but the streetlights are good all the way through. The fence at the end is not sharp per se at close inspection of the huge print, but from a normal viewing distance everything looks very sharp. It was taken at f/11 with the 120mm lens.


I find that f/11 to f/12.5 seems to be where diffraction starts to come into play. F/16 is still sharp, but noticeably less sharp (or maybe it's just less microcontrast?) than f/5.6 or f/4 where a lot of S lenses hit their peak contrast. f/22 is noticeably softer, and I don't think there is much reason to use it other than in incredibly bright situations where you want a slower shutter speed and don't have an ND filter...i.e. not often!

Overall, though, I get this nagging feeling that your technical requirements would be met just as well (or maybe better) by the D800E, and that your interest in the S2 is just that very typical "grass is always greener" equipment anxiety. The S2 will not make your work better, at least not in a way that will make people stand up and take notice. But if you are happier working with it, and you feel it improves your work, let's you make what you want to make more easily and enjoyably, then it is money well spent! It did that for me, and I think for Kurt, Marc and a lot of other S2 users. It is a hell of a camera, but don't think for an instant that if any of us had "just" a D800E, that it would be holding us back technically! It's not that these differences aren't there, it's that they are subtle.

I do think you are absolutely on the right track to chase the S2 lenses though. They are the biggest strength of the system. I think Leica basically sat down and tried to make the best lenses they possible could, designed for a larger, high MP sensor, and then made the body fit the lenses. The only point I would echo would be the one regarding not waiting for lenses that are not already out. If you truly "need" a 14mm equivalent, the S2 is not for you. They will never make it. Or at least, I can't imagine why they would. I would not be surprised if the 24mm was the widest they make. In fact, I would hope they would stop mucking around with super wides and start making something normal! How about a 40-45mm for heaven's sake?
Enough ranting...
Well said Stuart ... in every respect.

Please allow me to add something to your post.

The S is dual shutter camera ... making this camera a solution for problems no 35mm DSLR focal plane camera can cope with even if it was 100 meg. I'm currently using the H system leaf shutter lenses on the S2 as we all wait for the S versions to finally get here. In some cases I will continue using the H lenses because they fill in some favorite focal length gaps. Notably the excellent 50-II and 100/2.2 ... used either in focal plane mode up to 1/4000 shutter, or leaf shutter to 1/750 sync speed.

Here are a few shots where the ambient was overpowering, and the solution was high sync speed with lighting. The dock shot was using 600W/s of light on the back-lit distant subjects, and the Bride and Flower-girls candid was just on-camera SF-58 fill at full power ... both using 1/500 or 1/750 shutter to knock down the backgrounds. My assistant's 35mm DSLR back-up shots with on-camera flash were virtually unusable with blown backgrounds and silhouetted subjects.

The dock shot was the HC-50-II at f/8 (I added a crop to show the star type specular highlights on the water), the Bride/Flower Girls was the HC-100/2.2 The Leica sensor and processor works well with these lenses.

-Marc
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Good point Marc, I never use flash so that advantage seldom enters my mind! I should say that in regards to vibration, the S2 is indeed very well damped, and the mirror pre-release is very easily dealt with. I find the most convenient to be the 2s self timer, which pops the mirror and then fires after 2s. It is also possible to do it the normal way too. Making a timed long exposure is also very easy...just press the click wheel in B mode, and it brings up a menu where you can choose your length of exposure (max 125 seconds at iso 160), and the camera will then count down on the display.
I have noticed, however, that exposures in the 1/2 to 1/30th range (not sure exactly which...I have not tested) are not always as sharp as either shorter or longer exposures, even on the tripod with mirror lockup. This is usually an extremely subtle difference, but for best quality I would say either keep your exposure times longer or shorter! This is quite typical of all focal plane cameras though. Having a lens shutter only release would be great, but for some reason it seems to be technically impossible. I remember Leica addressed this when the camera came out.
 

AreBee

Member
All,

I apologise for what must appear to you to be significant delay in my response to your posts. As a new member of Get DPI my initial posts are moderated. Consequently, you may have missed my response in post number 20 and 21.

Stuart,

I don't think you will have much difficulty getting wide depth of field out of the wide lenses -- 35mm and wider. These lenses are already considered wide angles on 35mm, and provided you stop them down a bit and don't focus on things that are extremely near the camera, they will provide you with very generous depth of field...

I suspect that you will find more of an issue regarding depth of field with the longer lenses. There is significantly less depth of field in the 70mm lens than there would be in a 50mm on 35mm cameras.
If stopping down one stop returns the same DOF from an S2 compared to a D800E for equivalent wide angle lenses, why would stopping down one stop at the normal or tele end with equivalent lenses be different?

...I get this nagging feeling that your technical requirements would be met just as well (or maybe better) by the D800E, and that your interest in the S2 is just that very typical "grass is always greener" equipment anxiety.
I take your point, and thank you for your honesty, but I am not sure I agree. I have now had the chance to compare the S2 and D800E files that RVB made available for download and it is obvious to me that the grass is greener, at least for the things important to me.

Having said that, the D800E file has in-camera sharpening applied, whereas I am not sure if the S2 has. Hence I am not sure how valid the comparison is. One thing is certain: with no sharpening applied to the S2 file by me, I have to sharpen the D800E file approximately three times as much as I normally would a NEF in order to obtain parity in a large central region of the image - and with this much sharpening the D800E file unquestionably is over-sharpened.

There are additional differences between the two files.

The S2 will not make your work better, at least not in a way that will make people stand up and take notice. But if you are happier working with it...
And that (besides cost) is the crux: I do not shoot for other people. I shoot for me.

I am satisfied that I would love the quality of the files coming out of the S2. I consider myself to be someone for whom small differences are perceived to be very significant. However, even I am balking somewhat at the cost of entry for the S2 and lenses. As stated previously, now that I actually am in a position to purchase, I am thinking harder than ever to ensure that the correct decision is made.

It is a hell of a camera, but don't think for an instant that if any of us had "just" a D800E, that it would be holding us back technically!
I don't, and I hope that those reading my posts do not consider that my interest in the S-System derives from some form of snobbery. I can assure you that that is not the case. I am under no illusion about of the performance on offer from the D800E. Neither am I guilty of putting it on a pedestal.

The only point I would echo would be the one regarding not waiting for lenses that are not already out. If you truly "need" a 14mm equivalent, the S2 is not for you. They will never make it. Or at least, I can't imagine why they would. I would not be surprised if the 24mm was the widest they make.
I agree with all of the above.

How about a 40-45mm for heaven's sake?
And again.

The above is a link to files I shot comparing the S2 with 30mm to the D800E with 24mm 1.4G.. the S lenses is a little better but the Nikkor is surprisingly good..they're raw's so you can process them yourself..
Please can you confirm if in-camera sharpening was applied to the S2's DNG file?
 
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