Architecture/Interior Design - Tech or that camera!

[dougpeterson]

Every finder I have seen on workshops seems never to get used. They sound nice and are okay. Myself I never bothered but a iPhone I would if I had a older back especially since the LCD is just good enough on them but the IQ and Credo backs its a lot easier to shoot adjust , shoot adjust just like working with polariods. Now that's my preference but you may like them. After about a month of using a tech cam you get to be pretty good at guessing your framing and usually off just by a little. I level the cam both horizontally and vertically than usually aim shoot and than in most cases add a little rise . Once you get used to it you can work pretty fast.

I think with an Aptus II (DM) and the increased precision of an interior (rather than a landscape) that an Arca finder would find it's place. Also, I've really falled for the iPhone viewer of late even if I'm late to the party in that regard.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

I think that is a myth from photographers trying to justify an overly expensive bit of kit. Clients are generally interested when you pull out an unusual camera but IMO they don't really care what it is as long as they like your pictures. Put it this way, you have to get the booking first before the client even sees your camera bag, never mind the camera.

My take on the Tech camera is they are amazing. Give them the proper stage with wonderful lighting and they will sing. Used for something a little more challenging and it all goes down hill quickly. The problem is not the wonderful cameras or superb lenses but the technology in the digital backs that limits the tech camera at present.

I've done the whole tech camera thing and still love using it but I'm going full circle and looking at adding some of the new Canon TS-E lenses to my bag and very probably the new 1Ds when it finally gets released.

Fair enough! What's your idea about 5D MK III plus those lenses?

Every finder I have seen on workshops seems never to get used. They sound nice and are okay. Myself I never bothered but a iPhone I would if I had a older back especially since the LCD is just good enough on them but the IQ and Credo backs its a lot easier to shoot adjust , shoot adjust just like working with polariods. Now that's my preference but you may like them. After about a month of using a tech cam you get to be pretty good at guessing your framing and usually off just by a little. I level the cam both horizontally and vertically than usually aim shoot and than in most cases add a little rise . Once you get used to it you can work pretty fast.

Just found out this video about Arca RM3Di An introduction to Arca Swiss R cameras by Rod Klukas on Vimeo The finder seems quite interesting since it gives a bit sense of movements! As you said, iPhone is a different story! Wish they came up with a way of showing movement as well!

 

[dougpeterson]

Doug, can give more information about how the Arca finder actually works!? You know from all these tech cameras, I really liked the Arca RM3DI specially for the fact that tilt is built in the camera so available for all lenses! But again more expensive and my dealer told me it would probably take around six month to get it delivered!

I have not tried the ground glass myself at all so no experience whatsoever here! I got this impression from reading different comments by some users stating that since a 36x48mm sensor cannot use the whole area of the glass and there would be a mask on top of it then one has to use a 4x or 8x loupe to see what's going on! One more problem is attaching and removing the back to compose the shot!

Can't speak for other dealers but we can deliver significantly faster than that. We keep a standing order for bodies so we either have them in stock or about to be restocked. But there is no getting around that Arca occasionally goes back-order on a particular lens/body/adapter/etc and it takes a long time to get it.

Cambo Wide RS AE comes with a magnified, eye-cupped, finder which can slide to the edge of the ground glass. That goes a long way to making it useful.

BUT it will be quite dark in many interior situations, and it is upsidedown and backwards which takes getting used to. In some ways it's nice because it helps you see the geometry and composition of the scene in a more abstracted way, but certainly not straight forward for first time viewers.

 

[Shashin]

I have not tried the ground glass myself at all so no experience whatsoever here! I got this impression from reading different comments by some users stating that since a 36x48mm sensor cannot use the whole area of the glass and there would be a mask on top of it then one has to use a 4x or 8x loupe to see what's going on! One more problem is attaching and removing the back to compose the shot!

Honestly, I think I would enjoy using ground glass more as it is more traditional way of making a picture! Like how I feel when I look through the big RZ waist level finder! So, you believe GG is not that dark in some situation and is easy to work with?

I use a P25+ back on a Linhof view camera. I have no problems. Many folks are a little taken back by the ground glass experience, but I have used lots of view cameras and am not bothered by it at all. Sure, the glass can be dark, but that does not mean it is useless. Can you get some time with one of these cameras before buying? So much easier when you know what you are in for.

I have also used a Horseman SW612 panoramic camera. That had a viewfinder. I found the viewfinder to be a good way to frame. There is no DoF feedback nor focus information. With a wide, the distance and DoF scale on the lens was enough.

I have alway found you need to meet a camera halfway. No camera is perfect and has more and less effective ways of working. I have to spend a little time each time I get a new camera to come to terms with it, kind of like dating and not all dates work out, but I usually end up wed to it. I am sure the RZ took a bit of time to get used to if you were coming from a more usual DSLR, but likewise, it can be more gratifying to use, even with the quirks.

 

[Shashin]

I think that is a myth from photographers trying to justify an overly expensive bit of kit. Clients are generally interested when you pull out an unusual camera but IMO they don't really care what it is as long as they like your pictures.

Actually, that is not want I meant. I would never use that to justify a purchase, but I have found that unusual gear greases the wheels in many situations. When I was shooting a Japanese festival, the people that were pushing the crowds back ignored me but not the photographers with DSLRs. I could walk around the event easily. I have had other cases where security has given me a little more care because I did not look like every other photographer turning up to shoot the same thing. It is also nice you don't look like a tourist sometimes as well, although there are downsides to that as well. An unusual camera can be an asset on a shoot.

But you are right that your reputation is built on the work.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think with an Aptus II (DM) and the increased precision of an interior (rather than a landscape) that an Arca finder would find it's place. Also, I've really falled for the iPhone viewer of late even if I'm late to the party in that regard.

Who said I'm a landscape shooter. I'm really not. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Fair enough! What's your idea about 5D MK III plus those lenses?




Just found out this video about Arca RM3Di An introduction to Arca Swiss R cameras by Rod Klukas on Vimeo The finder seems quite interesting since it gives a bit sense of movements! As you said, iPhone is a different story! Wish they came up with a way of showing movement as well!

It's cool it's expensive and I really only seen one person actually use it out of about a dozen. Buy it after the fact like a month after and see if you need it. I think you would be happy to wait. Ill tell you why you spend more time playing with it than taking a few shots. Just sayin

On the iPhone I think the Alpa software shows movement. Need to check that though

 

[stephengilbert]

The ALPA eFinder has rise/fall and shift.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Stephen. I have it on my iPhone as was pretty sure it did.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Guys, I need to get back to my local dealer to see if he has a ground glass for the Cambo WRS1200 and/or download the iPhone app and use it with the cam to see how I go with composing and framing! Also, trying to see if I can play with the whole setup for a couple of days before making a decision to purchase it! In this way, I can get a better idea of the whole process!

Once again, I think I am more intimated by the fact that my back has more limitation to it than the way of working with a tech camera! If I were 100% sure that I am not going to run into trouble with exposure, making a decision would be much easier job! The idea of 36mp resolution, long exposure and high ISO capabilities of D800E and quite okay IQ of Zeiss 18mm or 21mm, correcting perspective in post (until a great wide tilt and shift lens for Nikon being produced) gives me a hard time! :banghead:

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

The ALPA eFinder has rise/fall and shift.

Wow, that's so good to know! Does it cover the 35XL lens on 36x48mm sensor? And I reckon there should not be any issue using it with Cambo?

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Okay, I made a stupid mistake by downloading the Alpa eFinder then realizing that it is only designed for Alpa cameras!

 

[stephengilbert]

The eFinder app allows you to choose the DB size and lens choice. It should work for any camera.

The limit on lens choice is a function of the iPhone you use. You would need an add-on lens for wide angle lenses.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just put in Alpa Max for camera. Won't make a difference . Put your lens in and sensor size.

 

[chrismuc]

My recommendation:

Step 1:
5D3 plus the following lens set-up

Canon 17f4 TSE L
Canon 24f3.5 TSE L II
Contax Zeiss 35f3.5 (aperture closed to f11) + Mirex 16mm shift adapter
Hasselblad Zeiss 50f4 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter
Hasselblad Zeiss 100f3.5 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter

With this set-up you get the optimum shift ranges and corner sharpnesses in the 17-100mm focal length range. (The image circles of the three Zeiss lenses are sufficient for full 16mm shift movements.)

Step 2:
Hartblei HCam or Alpa FPS with Canon EF mount
DM 22 48x36mm back or
2nd hand Leaf 75/Leaf Aptus-II 7 33MP 48x36mm back or
2nd hand Phase One 45/45+ 39MP 49x37mm back or
2nd hand Phase One 65/65+ 60MP 54x40mm back

Same lenses as above!
All lenses allow shift movements to a certain amount.
No lens requires a LCC file !!!
Optical quality is equivalent to Schneider/Rodenstock lenses but for a fraction of the investment in lenses.

IMO such a set-up makes the traditional tech-cam (Alpa, Arca-Swiss, Cambo aso.) obsolete.

 

[shortpballer]

Seriously? Never used the canon shift lenses, but I tried the Nikon 24 shift on a D800e. For me the results are incomparable to my Alpa with either Rodi or Schneider lenses...

My recommendation:

Step 1:
5D3 plus the following lens set-up

Canon 17f4 TSE L
Canon 24f3.5 TSE L II
Contax Zeiss 35f3.5 (aperture closed to f11) + Mirex 16mm shift adapter
Hasselblad Zeiss 50f4 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter
Hasselblad Zeiss 100f3.5 FLE + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter

With this set-up you get the optimum shift ranges and corner sharpnesses in the 17-100mm focal length range. (The image circles of the three Zeiss lenses are sufficient for full 16mm shift movements.)

Step 2:
Hartblei HCam or Alpa FPS with Canon EF mount
DM 22 48x36mm back or
2nd hand Leaf 75/Leaf Aptus-II 7 33MP 48x36mm back or
2nd hand Phase One 45/45+ 39MP 49x37mm back or
2nd hand Phase One 65/65+ 60MP 54x40mm back

Same lenses as above!
All lenses allow shift movements to a certain amount.
No lens requires a LCC file !!!
Optical quality is equivalent to Schneider/Rodenstock lenses but for a fraction of the investment in lenses.

IMO such a set-up makes the traditional tech-cam (Alpa, Arca-Swiss, Cambo aso.) obsolete.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Chris, your first option sound more practical to me although I have no idea about the Mirex 16mm shift adapters! That being said, I know many architecture/interior photographers are pretty happy with their Canon kit and are making good money! One example is Shannon McGrath, a Melbourne based commercial photographer Shannon McGrath Photographer - Commercial Photographers like her who make a living with this type of photography using DSLRs and tilt/shift lenses really make me it is more about vision then a tool to make that vision come true!

If I had a good DSLR kit, I would never look into tech cameras! I am still considering a DSLR kit with couple of lenses but have not made any decision yet! Image quality aside, need to do more realistic research about the business scope, which system would be more practical and efficient with not breaking the bank at the beginning!

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Seriously? Never used the canon shift lenses, but I tried the Nikon 24 shift on a D800e. For me the results are incomparable to my Alpa with either Rodi or Schneider lenses...

That's right! Many people are complaining about the Nikon 24mm PC-E so no surprise! I believe most architecture photographers are Canon shooters!

 

[torger]

Canon's newer TS-E 24 and TS-E 17 have flexible movements and very good optical quality at least in the ~21 megapixel range, at that resolution you can generally do larger movements than you can with a MF system. The TS-E 24 gives decent quality in combination with the 1.4X version III teleconverter as well if you need a ~35mm focal length. So if you only need around 20 megapixels and these focal lengths I think it is a good system, better than D800. The D800 PC-E lenses don't have that flexible movements either, and the 24 does not have as good optical quality as the Canon counterpart. Canon's live view is better too. Canon is rumoured to update the 45 and 90 TS-E to the more flexible design and better optical quality during 2013, but we'll see about that. The current 45 is a bit poor optical quality, the 90 is good but has inflexible movements (like the 45).

I have the TS-E 24mm on a Canon 5Dmk2 myself and a Linhof Techno system with a 33 megapixel back. I use the cheaper Schneider digitar lenses. I do mostly landscape though. For professional indoor architecture I'd rather use a pancake camera with HPF ring. Pancake camera without HPF ring seems to me to be a waste, so I'm not so sure about the Cambo, although you can add HPF rings to most(?) lenses. The advantage of Cambo is that it is the system that it is easiest to find second hand parts for on the forums. The view camera works indoor, but one need some dark-gg focusing skill and a back with working 100% focus check (or tethered), so if you do indoor occasionally but mostly outdoor and use a bit longer lenses the view camera can be a good choice (it becomes cheaper if you have many lenses).

I've used a 22 megapixel back recently as my 33 is on repair, and with that I'd say that it is impossible to fail concerning focus ;-). However, indoor wide angle with center filter and without flash at f/16 the shutter speed is immediately up at 30 second limit...

If you don't intend to go for higher resolution than your current 22 megapixels I'd surely take a deep look into a Canon system. Make sure to look at what focal lengths you need too. The largest weakness with the DSLRs is the lack of a proper 35mm focal length with tilt/shift, which actually is my favourite focal length for my photography (I use the 47mm Schneider Digitar on my Techno), although you may find the TS-E24 + 1.4X teleconverter to be "good enough".

Also be prepared that although tech cam lenses are the best they are not perfect, it is difficult to make wide angles with perfect corner sharpness also on tech cams. On the 47mm digitar I see some slight chromatic aberration even with the 22 megapixel back, but it is also an older generation lens, but cheap too and can do large movements. The 35mm digitar has some problematic field curvature. If you need to get the latest Rodenstocks to fulfil your quality expectations the cost can become very high indeed.

 

[Aryan Aqajani]

Canon's newer TS-E 24 and TS-E 17 have flexible movements and very good optical quality at least in the ~21 megapixel range, at that resolution you can generally do larger movements than you can with a MF system.

Thank you for this comprehensive information As far as I know, max shift on Canon 24mm lens is 12mm but max movement on Digital 35XL is 20mm on 36x48 sensor! So you mean the usable movements without introducing severe vignetting and corner softness would be around 15mm or even less?

The TS-E 24 gives decent quality in combination with the 1.4X version III teleconverter as well if you need a ~35mm focal length. So if you only need around 20 megapixels and these focal lengths I think it is a good system, better than D800.

That is an interesting point!

The D800 PC-E lenses don't have that flexible movements either, and the 24 does not have as good optical quality as the Canon counterpart. Canon's live view is better too. Canon is rumoured to update the 45 and 90 TS-E to the more flexible design and better optical quality during 2013, but we'll see about that. The current 45 is a bit poor optical quality, the 90 is good but has inflexible movements (like the 45).

And maybe in the near future, Canon come up with a high MP body

For professional indoor architecture I'd rather use a pancake camera with HPF ring. Pancake camera without HPF ring seems to me to be a waste, so I'm not so sure about the Cambo, although you can add HPF rings to most(?) lenses.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by pancake camera?

The advantage of Cambo is that it is the system that it is easiest to find second hand parts for on the forums. The view camera works indoor, but one need some dark-gg focusing skill and a back with working 100% focus check (or tethered), so if you do indoor occasionally but mostly outdoor and use a bit longer lenses the view camera can be a good choice (it becomes cheaper if you have many lenses).

The big reason I am looking to either technical or DSLR cameras is the need to have access to wide lenses like 24mm with movements! So, no urgent need for a longer lens at this stage!

However, indoor wide angle with center filter and without flash at f/16 the shutter speed is immediately up at 30 second limit...

That is my biggest concern specially for exteriors!

If you don't intend to go for higher resolution than your current 22 megapixels I'd surely take a deep look into a Canon system.

Not an option in the near future! I prefer to keep DM22 back and only upgrade if there would be a totally new back with modern features like live view and long exposure capability in a 22-33MP range!

The 35mm digitar has some problematic field curvature. If you need to get the latest Rodenstocks to fulfil your quality expectations the cost can become very high indeed.

So by that you mean Digital 35XL? That is the lens I was looking at if I go tech route! I can't afford to get the 28XL or the more expensive Rodenstocks ones!