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Thread: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

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    Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi all -

    With the recent launch of the Alpa FPS, I think there's going to be a lot more people interested in finding out about suitable/interesting lenses to combine with cameras such as the Alpa and the HCam. Of particular interest I'm sure will be image circles and sharpness.

    So, I thought it would be useful to have a single thread, where people can share their experiences with various combinations.

    Kicking off, here's a link to my testing of the Canon 24 TS-E on the HCam and with an IQ180, which I have posted previously in another thread.

    Canon 24mm TSE, Hartblei HCam, Phase One IQ180

    I don't have the time to do tests like that for all the lenses that I manage to get hold of, but here are a couple of other examples that hopefully give a good indication of image circles.

    Next week, I'll try to find some time to post some 100% crops from these, so that you can get an idea as to lens quality.

    Canon 200-400mm zoom at 200, 300 and 400mm:







    Canon 200-400mm zoom, with the inbuilt 1.4x teleconverter at 280mm and 560mm. Note the significant improvement in the image circle:





    Canon 800mm



    Not the easiest of combinations to focus, but I almost got it



    More soon hopefully, and look forward to others adding more!

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Gerald

    A good idea for a thread - I am sure that I am not the only person who has a range of Canon / or Nikon / or other lenses and a digital back and would like to know if there is a compatibility possibility.

    We see the 24mm T/S lens examples but not the other options like the 400mm focal lengths.

    For instance I own a 400mm f2.8 canon lens - now if I could match that up with the Phase 1 back, even with a restricted image circle, if the glass was up to the sensor, it would be an interesting option for high resolution telephoto images.

    Mal

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post

    For instance I own a 400mm f2.8 canon lens

    Mal
    I have a Hasselblad CF350/5.6 Tele-Tessar. Bought new by me a couple of decades ago. It has been used maybe 3-4 Velvia rolls in the beginning of its life and then put away for a loooong wait. It would be incredibly cool to match it with the Credo 60
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Guys

    here is some stuff for the thread, first a list that Christoph Kügler did



    and then a sample with the Canon Fisheye 8-15mm at 13mm on the Hcam with Aptus II8.



    many more links and samples on our HCam Facebook pages

    HCam.de | Facebook

    Greetings from right now Dubai
    Stefan
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    here is a sample made with the P45+ and the Nikon 14-24mm at 14mm F8, the sunshade should be sawed off, but then I would say it covers the full (smaller) sensors.



    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Ok. This is weird.

    Alpa have recently updated their website with details of FPS coverage.

    The slide at this link - Meet the Alpa 12 FPS. The Ultimate Open Platform. AlpaFPS01 - would seem to imply a different model of FPS coming in Q2 that will take SB17 lenses.

    I've not been able to get my head around how the existing SB17 lenses could ever fit on the FPS. Am I mis-reading this slide, or is there really a different version of the camera coming do you think?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    I can´t speak for Alpa, but to me this reads like they want to do a modified SB17 FPS adapter- not a new body.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    I've never been able to get my head around this.

    The SB34 lenses require a 17mm adapter to use with the FPS. Therefore, the SB17 lenses would require a 0mm adapter.

    I guess looking at the images of, for example, the 32HR SB17, you could envisage a way that a different mount could be used?

    ALPA of Switzerland - Manufacturers of remarkable cameras - Rodenstock/ALPA HR Alpagon 4.0/32 mm, SB17

    /edit

    The other thing I'm struggling to understand is why there's a 90HR SB34 and a 50HR SB34, but no 70HR SB34...

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Maybe with a recessed back plate ?
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Canon 17mm TS-E. Quite an astonishing field of view, but the image really does fall apart towards the edges.

    This is with 5mm rise.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    24mm TS-E with 1.4x converter. I don't really think this is a viable option



    You're far better off just shooting with the 24, and then cropping



    That first shot basically makes me realise I need to get a Rodie 32 HR
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Gerald

    Christoph Kügler has tried the 35mm Contax645 with a Mirex adapter and got really good results with that. Actual solution for that aperture thing: using a 645 body to stop down and then change body.

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Canon 50mm f/1.2


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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    A stupid question here!
    Why would you use Canon/nikon glass on medium format backs?. I can see the other way round (e.g. Rodi on nikon)!

    Amr

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by aeaemd View Post
    A stupid question here!
    Why would you use Canon/nikon glass on medium format backs?. I can see the other way round (e.g. Rodi on nikon)!

    Amr
    For this.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Or maybe for this:

    Leaf Aptus II 12R /80 Mpix on HCam-B1 with Canon TS-E 17mm
    no perspective corrections, done with standard settings in Capture One 6

    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/Leaf80M...non17mmTSE.jpg

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    How about the Rodi 23 mm on cambo or Arca M? 23 mm is a great lens.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by aeaemd View Post
    A stupid question here!
    Why would you use Canon/nikon glass on medium format backs?. I can see the other way round (e.g. Rodi on nikon)!

    Amr
    Because through Canon->MF adapters, you can use many MF lenses. This a great gift for lens collectors - buy once, and use all your existing MF lenses for free.

    In the next generation of HCam, I'd like to see a version that contains a built-in shift back, which would be great for stiching.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    What about using a D800 +14mm Samyang for that kind of shot ? or even a 12-24mm Sigma ? Cost is 1/10 and IQ 'good enough' for reality distorted shots I think. JMO

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    What about using a D800 +14mm Samyang for that kind of shot ? or even a 12-24mm Sigma ? Cost is 1/10 and IQ 'good enough' for reality distorted shots I think. JMO
    I dont have a HCam - but I do have an IQ180 back and a bunch of Canon lenses - so maybe it is cheaper to buy a HCam (the missing component) than to buy a Nikon D800 plus Nikon lenses to go with it.

    If my starting point was no IQ180, no Canon lenses then the equation would look quite different.

    I guess most of us are starting from different places with different aspirations and different budgets.

    Its a complex world we live in.

    Happy New Year


    Mal

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    To get the same image angle (126,3 degrees diagonal) on 35mm full format you would need a 10,8mm lens (rectilinear) which does not exist.
    And then the resolution is only barely half (Numerically-I guess the net res. per used pixel is higher too).

    HCam has done worldrecord wideangle digital (one shot rectilinear) with highest resolution since 2010 now - no matter which format used.
    With the Canon 8-15mm Fisheye zoom you will even get 180 degrees at about 13mm spherical.

    Regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    What about using a D800 +14mm Samyang for that kind of shot ? or even a 12-24mm Sigma ? Cost is 1/10 and IQ 'good enough' for reality distorted shots I think. JMO
    I used to own a 12-24 and Canon 5D2. It can't do that shot - no shift (and I don't believe the 3:2 aspect ratio helps either).

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    17TS-E edge performance comparison with 23HR.









    As an aside, anyone know what could be causing the banding on the 23HR shot?

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    As an aside, anyone know what could be causing the banding on the 23HR shot?
    No center filter and C1 working to hard?

    Chris

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Chris - that's with the filter and an LCC, and very little work in C1

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Or banding caused by a lens with a small flange focal distance on a large sensor.

    Tech wide lens in Capture One LCC is supposed to correct this problem - did you use the normal LCC profile?
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Gareth - just a normal LCC. I'll check the tech wide option when I get back home. Thanks!

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Hi Gareth - just a normal LCC. I'll check the tech wide option when I get back home. Thanks!
    That is why - should clear up nicely with the wide profile.

    This issue has nothing to do with lens fall off, rather the angle at which the light hits the sensor causes the banding. Always very obvious in areas of solid colour like sky. Big shifts on usually ok lenses can cause it too.
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    The forum needs a "hug" button. Thanks Gareth

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    OK, here's some great news.

    Just had an email from ALPA - new firmware for the FPS has just been released, and you will now be able to focus the Canon 85mm f/1.2 lens!

    (For those not aware, the 85/1.2 is unique amongst all Canon lenses in that it has a "fly by wire" manual focus - power has to be provided to the lens, otherwise you can't focus it manually.)

    I think this lens on a full frame MF back is going to open up some very interesting possibilities.

    This is a shot I took with it when mounted onto my HCam:



    Massive image circle, razor-thin DoF.
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    How do you focus with Canon lenses on the FPS? I can see how this is possible with the HCam because the back slides between the DB and viewfinder/focussing screen, but not with the FPS. Do you just rely on Canon's distance scales, or is there a means to set distance on the FPS and then get it to set the lens accordingly?

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    The FPS doesn't control the focusing of the lens, just aperture.

    Focusing is very much a guesstimate-shoot-review-adjust-repeat exercise with the FPS and the Canons, although of course you do have the option of using the Alpa ground glass. Focusing the 85/1.2 close up and wide open is not going to be easy, that's for sure

    Regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Just picked up my marvelous FPS at Alpa Zürich. Back mount Contax, front mount Canon.

    First lens tests:

    Contax 645 35f3.5 + Mirex shift adapter.
    Gives 135 equivalent 23mm horizontal field of view and about 8mm of usable shift movement. No LCC required. Nicely sharp at f11-f13, recommended to correct geometrical distortion with the Alpa lens correction plug-in for PS.
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Leica R 180f2.8 Apo

    Surprisingly the lens covers almost fully the 54x40mm sensor with minimal light fall-off in the edges. No wonder that some guys remount the lens for their Leica S. Lens is tack sharp across 90% of the frame (at f5.6 tested).
    Last edited by chrismuc; 24th May 2013 at 07:09.
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE + Mirex shift/tilt adapter

    The image circle of the lens covers rather fully the +/- 16mm shift capability of the Mirex adapter. Very useful and reliable combination (lens + adapter about 1000 EUR) at that focal length. Lens has rather low geometrical distortion, little CA, large image circle and good corner sharpness (at f11).

    The enclosed panos of two pics are about 15.000 pixel wide. The indoor pic of the RR was about 1.5 apertures underexposed. The IQ sensor does a good job recovering such dark underexposed areas.
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Contax CY 85f1.2

    A 1.2 aperture lens on a medium format sensor: that's where the fun begins!

    Similar to the Canon EF 85f1.2, the Contax pendant also has pretty large image circle. It would cover a 44x33mm sensor. Sharpness is good even at open aperture on a 5um IQ180 sensor ... if one succeeds adjusting the focus right :-)

    The lens, back and cam are a perfect match of mechanical precision, a real beauty of design.
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Christoph

    The Leica R lenses obviously used a much larger image circle to provide a better sweetspot area for center sharpness, so my guess is they were mostly MF lenses with a shorter flange focal distance. At least from maybe 50mm /certainly 100mm and upwards.

    Using them on the HCam or an FPS is definitely a bargain.

    Another tip from my side: my actual favourite lens for the HCam (and canon with Mirex) is the Mamiya Sekor C or N 1,9/80mm.
    I have the C version and using it wide open it´s nice for portraits and stepped down to f11 we tried and compared it with a new 80mm Schneider LS recently and we (my customer and me) were both looking for a long time on the compared images /HCam-Aptus 8+1,9/80 to PhaseDF+Aptus 8 and Phase 2,8/80 Schneider LS before we finally agreed that there is "maybe" a bit better sharpness on the outer areas, but in the center contrast and sharpness were identical (both at f11).

    Used price around 150-200 € max...... :-)

    Regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Leica R 100f2.8 Apo-Macro
    Image circle about 60mm, very good edge sharpness.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Leica R 60f2.8 Macro.
    Image circle about 55mm. Sharp across the frame at f8.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Leica R 19f2.8: Image circle about 45mm.
    Leica R 28f2.8: Image circle about 50mm.

    These lenses are less interesting on the FPS. The Canon 17 and 24 TSE cover these focal lengths with larger image circles and less geometrical distortion.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Chris, thank you very much for the very informative posts. Keep the coming! May I ask, what application scenario did you buy the FPS for? Is ist because you wanted to use your old contax / leica lenses?

    I ask because one could as well use those lenses on say aD800 and it appears to me that the sharpness in a lot of the displayed examples isnt on par with what real tech cam lenses provide.

    Also, did you talk to the Alpa people, is there the possibility of a Leica S adapater in the future? In my view, this would make the FPS even more attractive.

    I just still cannot fully understand why the FPS is hyped so much.

    Just interested in your decision criteria!

    Kindest regards

    Paul

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Thx Paul. My main purpose of getting the FPS is to use shift lenses for architecture photography with a resolution of up to 80 MP. So I choose the Canon 17 TSE, 24 TSE, the Contax 645 35 (+ Mirex) and the Hasselblad CF 50f4 FLE, 100f3.5 and 180f4 (+ Mirex) lenses, all with Canon mount.

    IMO the FPS and Hartblei cams are more useful and more flexible than conventional tech cams: The above mentioned long flange distance wide angle retrofocus lenses have several advantages compared to Schneider and Rodenstock lenses of equivalent focal lengths: They are much cheaper, don't need LCC files in post and one can use the same lenses on a Canon 5D/1D camera too.

    Leica R: They are excellent, but actually I will sell most of them because I use them too rarely :-(

    The Contax CY 85f1.2 is more an experimental toy. Normally I would use the 80f2 on my Contax 645 and the handling with mirror reflex viewfinder and autofocus is of course much easier and convenient.

    I asked Alpa about developing and releasing a Leica S adapter. They are at least thinking about that idea but one issue to solve is the reverse-engineering of the aperture electronics (like they successfully did with the Canon EF mount).

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    This is very interesting.

    Chris - are you familiar with the Rodenstock 32HR? I'd be very interested to get some insight as to how the Contax performs against it.

    I'm waiting for the Rodie in the FPS mount and very much looking forward to it. However, I've got a particular project that I'm planning that ideally needs a focal length around 32/35 that can be shifted on the FPS - obviously the 32HR in the SB17 FPS mount won't shift on the FPS (unless ALPA want to build me a custom mount with inbuilt shift!).

    Problem is, for what I have in mind, I'd need to shoot at around f/5.6. Alternative is to use the 32HR unshifted, pitch the camera up, and fix the keystone in post.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    Just picked up my marvelous FPS at Alpa Zürich. Back mount Contax, front mount Canon.

    First lens tests:

    Contax 645 35f3.5 + Mirex shift adapter.
    Gives 135 equivalent 23mm horizontal field of view and about 8mm of usable shift movement. No LCC required. Nicely sharp at f11-f13, recommended to correct geometrical distortion with the Alpa lens correction plug-in for PS.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Gerald. First week of June I'm back in China/Guangzhou and a friend has a Cambo with Contax back mount and a Rodenstock 32. I am also interested in that comparison, so we will do a little competition soon:-)

    The Contax 645 35 is really nice. But using it on the FPS needs a trick to set the aperture: Mount the lens on a Contax 645 cam, choose the aperture, press the aperture control button and unmount the lens. I normally put it to f11, but the lens is pretty good at f5.6 across the frame already.

    I presented Alpa my (mechanical) Mirex shift adapter solution for the conversion from Contax 645 to Canon EF mount and they would be interested in offering a shift Contax 645 mount with aperture control. Alpa tried before to contact Bo-Ming from Conurus/Metabones because he did already the reverse engineeering of the Contax 645 mount to Canon EF. But until now he seems unfortunately not really interested in such a cooperation in order to develop a C645 shift adapter with electronic aperture control. I know Bo-Ming too, so I will also try to convince him to give in his knowledge for such a promising product.
    Last edited by chrismuc; 24th May 2013 at 10:22.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Chris, thank you for your thoughts. Indeed, working with LCCs can be tedious.

    I really do hope they make an S lens adapter though, because that way one would gain access to the marvelous S lenses without having to use their expensive S2 body. An s 120 Macro on an IQ180 would be a dream in my view.

    Did you try the TSE 17 already? do you like it?

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    A hint - the old Nikkor Micro 2,8/60mm AFD (not the new Gold Ring version !) does have a huge image circle, for all backs smaller than 80 Mpix it´s perfect, 80 Mpix are a bit vignetting. Used from maybe 200 € and up.
    it´s also one of the sharpest lenses I know.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    :: Gerald
    I did a quick balcony shot with the Contax 645 35. Two pics +/- 10mm shifted sidewards and stiched together = 14.000 pixel wide.
    Image circle about 80mm, sharp image circle about 75mm.
    Some corner vignetting due to the small shift mechanism opening for the EF mount, the lens itself might have a larger image circle.
    Two crops from left side and from bottom right corner. Sharpness holds up pretty well (at f13).

    :: Paul
    The 17TSE is also excellent. I did not use it yet on the FPS coz I don't have it with me. Image circle is only slightly larger than the IQ sensor, so only very little shift movements possible ... but the lens is already damn wide w/o shift :-)
    Ur right, Leica S lenses also would be a dream on IQ backs via the FPS.
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Hi Christoph

    The 17mm TSE has a larger image circle.
    When we apply the TSE modification it gains about 2-3 mm all around.
    The 24mm will gain even more- about 3-4mm

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Another interesting finding: Like the Leica R 180f2.8 Apo, the Contax CY 135f2 covers full image circle for 54x40mm sensor, very cool:-)

    This allows 135 format 85mm angle of view pics with very shallow depth of field (comparable to a 85f1.3 lens at open aperture).

    At f2 there is slight corner vignetting, at f8 quite non and sharpness is fine at about 80% of image area.

    Enclosed a long distance test shot at f8 and a short distance pic at f2.

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    Re: Lenses for Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS

    Really cool Chris! Love these results and very interesting, certainly looking forward to any more posts from you. Btw I use the Zeiss f1.2 on MF too and is amazing amazing amazing: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...um-format.html As you say incredibly sharp wide open, but with the little "extension" I have I've found it does cover an IQ160 but barely, it depends more on the light and what focus distance is used. Going back to shooting a "regular" 80/2.8 wide open feels like everything is in focus

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