Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

[Don Libby]

Mal was gracious in sending me 2-files shot with his 35XL and an IQ180 and I was able to download them and opened them in C1 7.2 this morning. Seeing as how this might be an important topic for others I decided to respond here other than in a PM - hope you don't mind Mal.

Two-image files; one of the LCC the other of piece of art work.

I made a cloned variant of both files before working on them. I then created an LCC of the clone file before applying it to the clone of the image.

The profile created of the LCC looks very good. Mal - I'm assuming there were no movement? I can assume that the lack of movements added to the better file. If possible I'd like to see an LCC taken 10 and 15mm left and right. Yeah I know I'm asking for a lot here. I'm asking as most of my landscape work is done using movements.

After adding just the LCC profile to the image and doing no other processing I noticed the clone was slightly lighter overall however the colors seems not as rich as the original. Did I screw something up or is that what you see as well?

I've been reminded that I'll get the chance to test both the 35XL and HR40 next month in Carmel; likewise I'll be able to do it both on my 160 as well as a 180. I plan on really kicking the tires and will report back.

Thank you all for your contribution.

Don

 

[malmac]

Don

No problem replying here in the Forum - I tend to check in every day to see what is going on.

Unfortunately the art work went back to the client yesterday - but will set something else up and do some shots with movements. Youy are right the image I sent was without movements.

I just find the colour cast without any movements at all disturbing, given that with the P65+ back I don't remember colour casts until there was a fair amount of shift.

I would hope that the colour cast issue would be gone or at least minimal with the Rodie 32 or am I living in dream land?



Mal

 

[jagsiva]

Don

I would hope that the colour cast issue would be gone or at least minimal with the Rodie 32 or am I living in dream land?


Mal

Colour cast centred on the 32HR compared to the 35XL is night and day, It's there, but minimal. I am putting together a bunch of files for Don, PM me some place I can dump them for you if you are interested.

 

[Don Libby]

After downloading the files for the 35mm I opened them in C1 7.2 and cloned each file. I cloned the files so I could easily switch back and forth between the file. The first step was to create the LCC profile and comparing the profile with the original. In each case C1 7.2 did an excellent job with the color caste. I then applied the LCC to the image.

Jagsiva was kind enough to provide 6-files; center, 15mm right and left with corresponding LCC.

Doing no other processing other than to save the 3-image files using my Photoshop receipt I then open the Tiff files in CS6 and using the Photomerge tool created a panorama. Viewing the files on my color calibrated 30" monitor I began to pixel peep the finished image.

On a whole I'm pleased to see how well the 35mm XL plays with the IQ180. There still appears to be some color shifting. I noticed in the lower left corner where the grass takes on a reddish color and in the house on the right there appears to be a difference in color in the brick as well as on the roof (of course this could just be the house itself). Looking at the sky it appears there is a very slight color shifting as you go from left to right; then again with a winter sky that could happen.

Bottom line is that while it appears the 35XL (with CF) might be able to do an adequate job on an IQ180 I fear there's more to it. Just as I wrote that last sentence I picked up a reddish color path on the white garage on the left.

I'm very pleased to see the 15mm shift results which give an image of 16080 x 7768 pixels. This size is more than enough for my panoramas as I have no doubt it will go even larger.

Here's the finish - Based on the files provided me from Mal and Jag I've concluded that my best next step is to order the HR40. I've spoken with Dave G. and have one with T/S on the way.

I can't begin to thank you all for the support given here and if there is anyway I can repay it please let me know.

Don

 

[Don Libby]

Colour cast centred on the 32HR compared to the 35XL is night and day, It's there, but minimal. I am putting together a bunch of files for Don, PM me some place I can dump them for you if you are interested.

Jag - got to the files this morning working up the 35 first planning to to the 32 later. Many many thanks for you effort and support.

Don

 

[jagsiva]

No worries Don. Couple of notes...

I shot the 32HR at F8 as and the 35XL at f11. I feel these are the largest apertures with good results. The HR is very good at 5.6, but is as good as anything from f8 on.

The XL has the CF on. I think is is a must on this lens.

I shifted out to 15mm on both sides as this gives you a good idea on both lenses as to when things start falling apart. I am still quite struck by how good the Rodie with C17.

Will be interesting get your thoughts. I was going to do a corrected/stitched version of both, but my C1 is not cooperating at this point.

 

[OliverM]

Thanks to this thread (in particular), Don has his 40 HR on its way and I have my 35 xl on its way ... I won't get the IQ180 soon, so I gave priority to size, weigth and price.
Many thanks for your great input !

 

[goesbang]

Brian, if you don't mind one more question: how much of a problem is the distortion in real life when you do architecture? I can look at the graphs of the Schneider 43mm and the Rodenstock and the Schneider goes to 0.5% and the Rodi to about 1.3% but how often, if it all, should one revert to the Alpa lens corrector if one is really picky? I use the Schneider 43mm which is a wonderful lens but I'm not that happy with the desaturation problem when getting close to the image circle.

Chris

The only time I ever notice the distortion is when there is a high contrast straight line running the entire length of frame that is also right next to the edge of frame. It is there, but you really have to be looking for it. It is relatively simple to correct and the Alpa lens corrector does a pretty good job.

 

[goesbang]

Don, a word of caution on C1 LCC correction on the 35XL (and any other lens giving severe lens cast) - it appears that the software shifts the curves to make the colour corrections, but when it runs into areas where the extent of colour shift is severe, it also begins to desaturate colour in those areas. This is particularly noticeable in blue skies that have gone magenta from lens cast. As the necessary correction gets more severe, blue skies will desaturate, in some cases almost to gray. So in some cases, whilst you may not see the obvious magenta cast, you will have nonetheless lost a lot of colour. The moral of the story is that the IQ180/35XL combo with shift is a dud.

 

[jagsiva]

A few others asked for the files so......Here are 32HR and 35XL images -- just doing my part to help Dante :thumbup:

Links to RAW files and full-size JPG below. Feel free to process and post etc. I think the 32HR can be better in the extreme bottom corners with slight tilt. This lens does have a slight focus shift. I will post my qualitative (but unqualified amateur) thoughts on both lenses as soon as I get some time. Also, the Alpa lens corrector could probably iron out the distortion as well. Hope you guys find this helpful.

1. Quick & dirty C1 7 Processed - LCC, WB, default sharpening, exposure adjustment, clarity/structure (same on both with the exception WB, exposure and LCC)
2. PS - Stitch (Reposition/Blend), Resize
3. All RAW files, and full stitched JPG available at:

32HRhttps://www.dropbox.com/sh/z1rd6ha2n0uypnw/LZVH6Tw9Gq
35XL https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jk814p4ud0j8hkh/nB5b4_NwmA​

​

32HR |Rm3di/IQ180 | ISO 35 f8 1/8s | Centre/15mm Right/15mm Left

35XL - Rm3di/IQ180 w/CF | ISO 35 f11 1/2s | Center/15mm Right/15mm Left

 

[Guy Mancuso]

After downloading the files for the 35mm I opened them in C1 7.2 and cloned each file. I cloned the files so I could easily switch back and forth between the file. The first step was to create the LCC profile and comparing the profile with the original. In each case C1 7.2 did an excellent job with the color caste. I then applied the LCC to the image.

Jagsiva was kind enough to provide 6-files; center, 15mm right and left with corresponding LCC.

Doing no other processing other than to save the 3-image files using my Photoshop receipt I then open the Tiff files in CS6 and using the Photomerge tool created a panorama. Viewing the files on my color calibrated 30" monitor I began to pixel peep the finished image.

On a whole I'm pleased to see how well the 35mm XL plays with the IQ180. There still appears to be some color shifting. I noticed in the lower left corner where the grass takes on a reddish color and in the house on the right there appears to be a difference in color in the brick as well as on the roof (of course this could just be the house itself). Looking at the sky it appears there is a very slight color shifting as you go from left to right; then again with a winter sky that could happen.

Bottom line is that while it appears the 35XL (with CF) might be able to do an adequate job on an IQ180 I fear there's more to it. Just as I wrote that last sentence I picked up a reddish color path on the white garage on the left.

I'm very pleased to see the 15mm shift results which give an image of 16080 x 7768 pixels. This size is more than enough for my panoramas as I have no doubt it will go even larger.

Here's the finish - Based on the files provided me from Mal and Jag I've concluded that my best next step is to order the HR40. I've spoken with Dave G. and have one with T/S on the way.

I can't begin to thank you all for the support given here and if there is anyway I can repay it please let me know.

Don

With the IQ 180 really the bottom line is either the Rodie 28,32 or 40 are your best and least problematic lenses over the SK. My only problem with the 32 is its size and care must be given to it with regards to carrying it around. I personally liked the Rodie 28 as it was wide and fun to use and very sharp. The 40 is probably the best all around wide for folks and is a nice balance between focal length and performance. On a tech cam maybe the most used lens would be the 40 for most shooting.

BTW there is a color cast in everyone of them, it's not always seen when shooting landscape stuff but under test with a white wall you will see some color cast shifted or not. The 32 and 28 for instance you will see a magenta and green cast usually in the bottom middle of the frame without Center filters. But when real shooting sometimes this is overlooked as well. The 40 I can't speak of since I only used it a few times but never tested the color casts if any. Even my SK 60 which one would think there is none but there is a slight color cast. Obviously this will depend on how critical your color needs to be and landscape images many times this can be ignored.

 

[goesbang]

With the IQ 180 really the bottom line is either the Rodie 28,32 or 40 are your best and least problematic lenses over the SK. My only problem with the 32 is its size and care must be given to it with regards to carrying it around. I personally liked the Rodie 28 as it was wide and fun to use and very sharp. The 40 is probably the best all around wide for folks and is a nice balance between focal length and performance. On a tech cam maybe the most used lens would be the 40 for most shooting.

BTW there is a color cast in everyone of them, it's not always seen when shooting landscape stuff but under test with a white wall you will see some color cast shifted or not. The 32 and 28 for instance you will see a magenta and green cast usually in the bottom middle of the frame without Center filters. But when real shooting sometimes this is overlooked as well. The 40 I can't speak of since I only used it a few times but never tested the color casts if any. Even my SK 60 which one would think there is none but there is a slight color cast. Obviously this will depend on how critical your color needs to be and landscape images many times this can be ignored.

I'm curious as to why the 23HR-S Digaron/Alpagon doesn't rate a mention. This is the lens I use most - in the last 2 years, probably 90% of the frames I have exposed have been with this lens. It does throw lens cast, but it is well within the capabilities of the LCC software to correct it. However, the CF is essential in C1 6 if you want to avoid the desaturation from LCC. I haven't used it enough with C1 7 yet to have a clear opinion on this but the LCC solution in the new version is a massive improvement on v6.(Early indications are that v7 is less prone to desaturate areas that need correcting). If you are shooting with a tech cam and haven't upgraded yet, I strongly recommend that you do.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree I would be all over version 7 with a tech cam. Phase seems to keep improving and improving the lens corrections with LCC's . Honestly some of our older tests with these lenses are getting outdated on each improvement of C1. They have done a lot of work on improving the the color casts that yesterday where pretty hard to deal with . Now I agree the 23 is a killer lens, I used it a couple times and its really really nice and wide as you may ever want. I say that with the big fun to shoot besides its description. It's limited on movements but honestly a lot of interior work only needs a few mm of movement anyway and worst case you tilt it up and fix with keystone tool. Lovely lens but you need a CF and you need to watch direct light hitting the front element. Depending on need going 23, 40, 70 , 120 is a excellent combo to have as a kit. I had the 28,60,90 which I loved. Obviously this comes down to need and let's face it cost. These lenses are not the cheapest toy in the store but under lock and key. LOL

 

[Don Libby]

Wow, a lot has happened overnight!

Jag - thanks for posting larger files. The 32 looks much better than the 35 and I see the same problems in your 35 file as I saw on mine. One of the biggest issues is the patch of grass in the lower left corner.

Guy - This'll sound a little off but for me I feel the 32 is just a little too wide for what I do. The combination of focal length, weight and price puts it into a place that if I ever needed it I'd see about renting. It's my understanding that the 32 (and 28) work better with a CF whereas the 40 doesn't require one. Also I understand (and I can be wrong) that the 28 and 32 both require LCC whereas the 40 it's a "nice to have" but not necessary.

Brian - tanks for the comment. I've been using nothing but Schneider lenses for the past 4+ years. All of them at one time or another exhibited color casts depending on the circumstances; none so bad as they were fixable. In the case of attempting to use a 35XL with a 180 it's a non starter. Which was the sole reason that when I switched from a P65 I went to the 160 thinking at the time I was more than satisfied with the 35 XL. Just goes to show what thinking causes...

Finally to echo Brian and Guy's thoughts on C1. As good as C1.6 was for wide-angle technical LCC C1.7 is much better. I've now seen this fact in both the files I've shot with the 160 but going backwards to older P65 and later still to P45 I see a vast improvements.

Bottom line is if you shoot with a tech cam do yourself a huge favor and upgrade to C1.7 if you haven't done so already.

Talked to Dave yesterday - I should have the HR40 soon; either before CI in Carmel or he'll hand deliver it there. I'll pass on whatever I can regarding LCC and image files as I get used to it either from here in Tucson or Carmel and hopefully in Death Valley as Sandy and I are spending a week there after we leave Carmel.

One last thought this morning. My Schneider 35mm XL, Center Filter and Viewfinder Mask will be placed in the Buy/Sell section just as soon as I get the HR40.

Thanks again for all the help

Don

 

[kdphotography]

....

Guy - This'll sound a little off but for me I feel the 32 is just a little too wide for what I do. The combination of focal length, weight and price puts it into a place that if I ever needed it I'd see about renting. ....
Don

The problem with "renting" the 32HR is that it doesn't resolve getting past the well-settled Dante's Rule of, "You touch it, you buy it." :ROTFL:

LCC still recommended for the HR40, as it at minimum evens out light fall-off at the edges. But, yes---gotta say the HR40 images look damned good straight out of the digital back pre-LCC.

ken

 

[Don Libby]

Just a followup here. FedEx just dropped off the new 40 t/s less than 30 minutes ago. It's a beast! I've tried it out in the rear yard and like it a lot! The 35XL is still listed for sale for anyone interested.

Don

 

[malmac]

Don

It may be interesting other than my self to see a direct comparison between the 35xl and the 40 before the 35 goes to live with someone else.

For instance can you avoid using an LCC when using the 40 without extreme shifts?

Anyway, congratulations on the new lens -



Regards



Mal

 

[vjbelle]

Just a followup here. FedEx just dropped off the new 40 t/s less than 30 minutes ago. It's a beast! I've tried it out in the rear yard and like it a lot! The 35XL is still listed for sale for anyone interested.

Don

Would be very interested to hear if there are any symmetry issues left vs. right with the lens wide open. It would be great to hear that Rody has that kind of quality control.

 

[Don Libby]

I'll try and get some side by side tests done soon however remember I still "only" have an IQ160...

Don

I did a couple really quick down and dirty tests right after getting the package and before I had to go into a meeting with clients. Shooting outside in my back yard (my normal testing place) I saw what I think is proof that the LCC isn't neceaasry for all shots. I'll try and set some time aside tomorrow and get some real testing done.

 

[etrump]

I'll try and get some side by side tests done soon however remember I still "only" have an IQ160...

Don

I did a couple really quick down and dirty tests right after getting the package and before I had to go into a meeting with clients. Shooting outside in my back yard (my normal testing place) I saw what I think is proof that the LCC isn't neceaasry for all shots. I'll try and set some time aside tomorrow and get some real testing done.

Don, why upgrade from the IQ160 to 180 besides the better color, more dots and incredible DR? ;0

If I had to do it again, I might opt for the HR40 over the HR32.