Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 47 of 47

Thread: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I'm doing long term planning here. I've searched and found some discussions regarding this subject and I'm slightly more confused than when I began. It looked like the SK35 and IQ180 didn't play well together then Phase upgraded their software in C1 and some thought it worked - to a point. I did the search a couple days ago for bear with me. It looked like (if I remember correctly) the last anyone spoke about this combination was sever months ago and still there weren't any conclusive thoughts.

    We now have C1-7 and it's been some months since anyone has had anything meaningful to say. My thought process is this - switch to a HR40mm selling my SK35 then in time move up to the IQ180 from my IQ160. The only thing that stopped me before was the talk about how badly the SK35 performed. Then recently I began to see (from searching) that some who had the combo got it working.

    So - what is it? Does the SK35 play well with the IQ180 or is it a lost cause and I need to think new glass if I want to go with the 180.

    Your thoughts are welcome but I'm looking for actual hands on experience.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  2. #2
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Sooooo...at CI in Carmel, does this mean Dave is bringing out an extra IQ180 ??


  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I understand he's bringing a heck of a lot....
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don, I used the 35XL extensively with my P65+ and was frankly, delighted with it. It needed the CF and was limited to about 10-12mm shift before LCC couldn't handle the correction without noticeable quality loss (either increased noise or loss of colour saturation was the problem). C1 7 LCC is better, but still desaturates.
    On the IQ180, the 35XL just doesn't cut it for me. Lenscast is so severe due to the smaller pixels that realistic shift is down to 4-6mm which in this focal length is just not enough for me. Also, the critical sharpness is no match for my 23HR. This wasn't something I noticed on the 60MP back but it shows on the 80MP. Not enough that my clients would know the difference, but enough that I do.
    Accordingly, my 35XL has a new owner who is delighted with its performance on his P45+ and I have a shiny new 40mm HR Alpagon short barrel, and what a beauty it is. I'm not sure what camera you run, but for me, the fact that the 40mm will fit on the new Alpa WA tilt adapter and the 35XL won't was also a consideration.
    The 40 is a lot bulkier and heavier than the 35XL, but the sharpness and the useable image circle (real world, not manufacturer claimed) is a real winner.
    BTW, if the Schneider 35 you refer to is not the 35XL but the older 35Apo Sironar digital, then the change to the 40HR-w is a no-brainer.
    This is probably not what you want to hear given the cost of the upgrade, but at risk of being called an enabler, I think the move to the 40 is a worthwhile one.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  5. #5
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don, I have the 35XL and an IQ180 with a Cambo WDS -

    Unfortunately I don't have alternative lenses for the Cambo to compare it with but really I don't think the combination of the 35XL and IQ180 is a winner.

    Have looked at getting an alternative lens but really just can't spare the cash to make the change at this point in time.

    I would not sell my 35XL for someone to use on an IQ180 because I don't believe they would be happy - as I am not happy with the match.

    By the way, it does have a CF and I do use LCCs and C1 v7 - so I think it is getting every chance to shine.


    Regards


    Mal

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Luxembourg, Paris
    Posts
    125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Hi, I am also willing to buy a 35-40 mm lens, sorry to pollute this thread as my needs are not for an IQ180 (my mid-term planning is rather a P65+ or a Aptus II-10).
    I understand from the first opinions that the 35xl could be sufficient for my needs (max 60 MPix, I will rarely do more than 10-15 mm rise), and just hope the fall-off is not too visible at f8-f11.
    Apart from technical answers to the IQ180 requirements, do you see a significant advantage of the 40 HR in terms of general look (colors, micro-contrast, textures, ...), that could also also be great for smaller backs ?
    Price, size and weight will probably limit my choice to the 35xl, but sometimes I can be very irrational ...
    Thank you !
    Oliverm

  7. #7
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    My opinion:
    With a P65+: Fantastic lens
    With an IQ180 before the improved LCC math: Unusable, even straight on
    With an IQ180 after the improved LCC math: Usable straight on and with maybe 5mm of movement

    So yes, it was improved. But a Rodenstock 32mm HR is still a better match to an IQ180. Though it is heavier, more expensive, and has more distortion it's sharpness and low cast when shifted make it a stellar lens. Check out the full res image we have posted from Rodenstock 32HR.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  8. #8
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by OliverM View Post
    Hi, I am also willing to buy a 35-40 mm lens, sorry to pollute this thread as my needs are not for an IQ180 (my mid-term planning is rather a P65+ or a Aptus II-10).
    I understand from the first opinions that the 35xl could be sufficient for my needs (max 60 MPix, I will rarely do more than 10-15 mm rise), and just hope the fall-off is not too visible at f8-f11.
    Apart from technical answers to the IQ180 requirements, do you see a significant advantage of the 40 HR in terms of general look (colors, micro-contrast, textures, ...), that could also also be great for smaller backs ?
    Price, size and weight will probably limit my choice to the 35xl, but sometimes I can be very irrational ...
    Thank you !
    Oliverm
    On an Aptus-II 10 I'd pick the 35XL any day.

    If there is even a small chance you might upgrade to an Aptus-II 12 or IQ180 in the next few years then you may wish to take that into consideration: I'm a big proponent of selecting lenses that will be with you for many years. Switching lenses obviously costs money but less obviously makes you re-learn the way a scene will look through the new lens; like a runner wearing a new pair of shoes there is a break in period after a changeover before you no longer think about the equipment.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Luxembourg, Paris
    Posts
    125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    On an Aptus-II 10 I'd pick the 35XL any day.

    If there is even a small chance you might upgrade to an Aptus-II 12 or IQ180 in the next few years then you may wish to take that into consideration: I'm a big proponent of selecting lenses that will be with you for many years. Switching lenses obviously costs money but less obviously makes you re-learn the way a scene will look through the new lens; like a runner wearing a new pair of shoes there is a break in period after a changeover before you no longer think about the equipment.

    Hmm, good points ... I am confident that I will build up an Alpa system that I will use for a looong time, but I wonder if I can do this without too many trial & "mistakes". Also because I learn techniques and my needs change over this process.
    If I can get a similar pop from the 35xl than the one I have with the Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 4.0/60 mm, I am confident I can live with it. But as I don't know how to explain what I mean with "pop", I guess I will have to try

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Thanks for the information.

    We're currently doing long term planning/what if and part of this was an eventual upgrade to the IQ180. While I'm still tickled pink with the IQ160 the 180 does nevertheless offer a few extra benefits that makes it somewhat attractive.

    I've been using the 35XL (w/CF) since I bought the WRS way back in October 2008 and found it a great lens for the P45 and P65 and now the IQ160. I wasn't willing to get rid of it back when I upgraded from the P65 and decided to upgrade instead to the 160. Things change however and I had hoped to be able to keep the lens with the 180 - doesn't look like it though.

    I don't want to go wider as I often like to do wide panos and will need a lens that can shift similar to the 35XL thus I'm looking at the HR40. I figure I'd pick up the HR then get used to it before changing to the 180; selling the 35 in the process.

    Another question if I may - does the HR40 require a CF like the SK35?

    And to comment on Doug's thoughts. He's totally right. You need to think long term usage when picking a lens (or back). Had I known I was going to switch to a tech cam I'd of begun with a P45 instead of the P30. Likewise if I had any idea that an IQ back was being made (again that was over 4-years ago) I would have rethought my wide lens.

    Once I decide the direction we go in I'll let you know. Also while the 35 isn't for sale now it will be if I decide on a replacement lens.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  11. #11
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    No CF required (nor do I think there is even one available) for the HR40.
    This lens is great; it barely needs an LCC, and typically just with movements, though I always shoot an LCC after each shot.

    I love the the HR40 t/s on the Cambo!

    That being said, just remember it wasn't me----but Bryan Siebel as your enabler...



    ken

  12. #12
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    No worries Ken - you remain the Sr. Enabler. Brian is the Jr. Enabler. Then again most folks here fit that description....

    Great news on the CF and the 35 is an XL.

    Now I have to figure out if a need t/s. (although Sandy recently mentioned t/s in a conversation )

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Thank you Ken, I'll wear the enabler badge with pride, though I fear your rush to bestow the award may be in danger of competing with our dear friend Fred's rush to repost his fave GX680 stuff for predictability!
    As usual, Doug gives very useful advice. Buy the best gear, buy it once and be done with it. Of course, we can't always predict where things will go. In this case, at the time many of us bought the 35XL, it was king of the heap and nobody knew the 5.2 micron backs would suffer the amount of lenscast they do. Unless you are very fickle (I'm lookin at YOU Mancuso!), most of your lenses will be much longer serving acquisitions than cameras or backs, so even if it means buying more performance than you think you need now, it will be prudent to step up a level if it is on the market.
    Oliver, the 40 is appreciably sharper than the 35XL. The difference is just perceptible in the middle but obvious to even Blind Freddy at the edges, so I have no doubt you will love it on this score.
    I always have a quiet giggle to myself when people get on a soapbox about the colour differences between current generation Schneider vs. Rodie lenses. It's so small you need a densitometer to measure it. If it's really that significant to you, it is a relatively simple matter to build a profile to give you the look you want. Stress not. There are subtle differences in how they render generally. I suspect one brand relies more on absolute resolving power and the other more on micro-contrast for their sharpness, but there are people more optically savvy than me here to have that discussion with. In the area I am most interested, namely the output files I can produce from my files, there is little meaningful difference, hence my signature line.
    Don, I used to be firmly in the "hyper focal" method for all images with lenses below 45mm camp. Over time, my habit of jamming a lens up the left nostril of my subject (figuratively speaking) has left me with some issues, especially with the IQ180 so clearly diffraction limited at f11 at smallest. Hence, when I got the 40, I got the tilt version. Sure, I had to endure a stern talking to with much finger waving from the Finance Minister, Frau Siebel, but I think it was worth it!
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    253
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Brian, if you don't mind one more question: how much of a problem is the distortion in real life when you do architecture? I can look at the graphs of the Schneider 43mm and the Rodenstock and the Schneider goes to 0.5% and the Rodi to about 1.3% but how often, if it all, should one revert to the Alpa lens corrector if one is really picky? I use the Schneider 43mm which is a wonderful lens but I'm not that happy with the desaturation problem when getting close to the image circle.

    Chris

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I've talked to the best enabler there is about this (Dave G.) and we're going to take the next steps slowly (at least for me). I believe the 180 is in my future and with that I'll have to have a change in lens lineup and it looks like the 40 is it; however, I plan on testing it. There isn't that much of a change in focal length so that should be a major problem for my landscape. My concern is having the room for shifting. Years ago I bought a 28mm thinking I'd have just as much luck with that as I did when using the same focal length on the Mamiya. Again this was back when I first began work with the WRS and quickly found it unusable for me due to lack of shifting (on a P45+).

    Okay (and bear with me as this is being typed during my first cup of coffee) if the 40 offers me the same or near same room for movements as the 35 then it's a deal. Now I need to think of t/s. Part of my older training kicks in here and I think I'll go with it as "it's better to have and not need it than to need it and not have it". I have done a few captures where I used multiple captures to stack and makeup for the lack of t/s so I can see myself using it occasionally. (Sandy & I are headed to Death Valley for a week of shooting right after CI in Carmel and will be spending time at the Race track where t/s should come into play.)

    Brain - I understand the habit of jamming as I've caught myself doing just that! Also understand the part of getting it past the Finance Minister, in this case Frau Libby! Selling the 35XL with its CF should lessen the burden though.

    Nice to hear the 40 being sharper than the 35XL.

    I agree with you regarding the differences between the current generation Schneider vs. Rodie lenses. Too many people just google for information and misread what's being said. In the end it takes hands on experience.

    Again thanks for the information which has in turn enabled me to make a decision (almost).

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  16. #16
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Don, I have the 35XL and an IQ180 with a Cambo WDS -

    Unfortunately I don't have alternative lenses for the Cambo to compare it with but really I don't think the combination of the 35XL and IQ180 is a winner.

    Have looked at getting an alternative lens but really just can't spare the cash to make the change at this point in time.

    I would not sell my 35XL for someone to use on an IQ180 because I don't believe they would be happy - as I am not happy with the match.

    By the way, it does have a CF and I do use LCCs and C1 v7 - so I think it is getting every chance to shine.


    Regards


    Mal
    Mal - off topic - How are you doing with the wildfires? Any impact?

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  17. #17
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don

    We are as luck would have it still 500ks from the nearest really bad fires. But that said in Australia where it gets dry quickly and pretty much any where can be in trouble.


    Thanks for your concern.


    Mal

  18. #18
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I am following this thread with interest because I would like to upgrade my 35xl lens. But at present finance minister is furrowing brow, not a good sign. So just trying to be ready for a moment of weakness.

    The 32 Rodie being my most likely replacement.

    Mal

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Mal,I'll be coming through T'mba in March if you'd like a gander at the 40.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  20. #20
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Mal - got the files yesterday and will look at them this morning. Many thanks.

    The 32 Rodie looks good and on the surface I'd agree with you other than I'm too uncertain on the real-world amount of movements. Can you get 10-15mm movements?

    Of course then there's the price
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Mal was gracious in sending me 2-files shot with his 35XL and an IQ180 and I was able to download them and opened them in C1 7.2 this morning. Seeing as how this might be an important topic for others I decided to respond here other than in a PM - hope you don't mind Mal.

    Two-image files; one of the LCC the other of piece of art work.

    I made a cloned variant of both files before working on them. I then created an LCC of the clone file before applying it to the clone of the image.

    The profile created of the LCC looks very good. Mal - I'm assuming there were no movement? I can assume that the lack of movements added to the better file. If possible I'd like to see an LCC taken 10 and 15mm left and right. Yeah I know I'm asking for a lot here. I'm asking as most of my landscape work is done using movements.

    After adding just the LCC profile to the image and doing no other processing I noticed the clone was slightly lighter overall however the colors seems not as rich as the original. Did I screw something up or is that what you see as well?

    I've been reminded that I'll get the chance to test both the 35XL and HR40 next month in Carmel; likewise I'll be able to do it both on my 160 as well as a 180. I plan on really kicking the tires and will report back.

    Thank you all for your contribution.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  22. #22
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don

    No problem replying here in the Forum - I tend to check in every day to see what is going on.

    Unfortunately the art work went back to the client yesterday - but will set something else up and do some shots with movements. Youy are right the image I sent was without movements.

    I just find the colour cast without any movements at all disturbing, given that with the P65+ back I don't remember colour casts until there was a fair amount of shift.

    I would hope that the colour cast issue would be gone or at least minimal with the Rodie 32 or am I living in dream land?



    Mal

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by malmac View Post
    Don

    I would hope that the colour cast issue would be gone or at least minimal with the Rodie 32 or am I living in dream land?


    Mal
    Colour cast centred on the 32HR compared to the 35XL is night and day, It's there, but minimal. I am putting together a bunch of files for Don, PM me some place I can dump them for you if you are interested.

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    After downloading the files for the 35mm I opened them in C1 7.2 and cloned each file. I cloned the files so I could easily switch back and forth between the file. The first step was to create the LCC profile and comparing the profile with the original. In each case C1 7.2 did an excellent job with the color caste. I then applied the LCC to the image.

    Jagsiva was kind enough to provide 6-files; center, 15mm right and left with corresponding LCC.

    Doing no other processing other than to save the 3-image files using my Photoshop receipt I then open the Tiff files in CS6 and using the Photomerge tool created a panorama. Viewing the files on my color calibrated 30" monitor I began to pixel peep the finished image.

    On a whole I'm pleased to see how well the 35mm XL plays with the IQ180. There still appears to be some color shifting. I noticed in the lower left corner where the grass takes on a reddish color and in the house on the right there appears to be a difference in color in the brick as well as on the roof (of course this could just be the house itself). Looking at the sky it appears there is a very slight color shifting as you go from left to right; then again with a winter sky that could happen.

    Bottom line is that while it appears the 35XL (with CF) might be able to do an adequate job on an IQ180 I fear there's more to it. Just as I wrote that last sentence I picked up a reddish color path on the white garage on the left.

    I'm very pleased to see the 15mm shift results which give an image of 16080 x 7768 pixels. This size is more than enough for my panoramas as I have no doubt it will go even larger.

    Here's the finish - Based on the files provided me from Mal and Jag I've concluded that my best next step is to order the HR40. I've spoken with Dave G. and have one with T/S on the way.

    I can't begin to thank you all for the support given here and if there is anyway I can repay it please let me know.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Colour cast centred on the 32HR compared to the 35XL is night and day, It's there, but minimal. I am putting together a bunch of files for Don, PM me some place I can dump them for you if you are interested.
    Jag - got to the files this morning working up the 35 first planning to to the 32 later. Many many thanks for you effort and support.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    No worries Don. Couple of notes...

    I shot the 32HR at F8 as and the 35XL at f11. I feel these are the largest apertures with good results. The HR is very good at 5.6, but is as good as anything from f8 on.

    The XL has the CF on. I think is is a must on this lens.

    I shifted out to 15mm on both sides as this gives you a good idea on both lenses as to when things start falling apart. I am still quite struck by how good the Rodie with C17.

    Will be interesting get your thoughts. I was going to do a corrected/stitched version of both, but my C1 is not cooperating at this point.

  27. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Luxembourg, Paris
    Posts
    125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Thanks to this thread (in particular), Don has his 40 HR on its way and I have my 35 xl on its way ... I won't get the IQ180 soon, so I gave priority to size, weigth and price.
    Many thanks for your great input !

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Brian, if you don't mind one more question: how much of a problem is the distortion in real life when you do architecture? I can look at the graphs of the Schneider 43mm and the Rodenstock and the Schneider goes to 0.5% and the Rodi to about 1.3% but how often, if it all, should one revert to the Alpa lens corrector if one is really picky? I use the Schneider 43mm which is a wonderful lens but I'm not that happy with the desaturation problem when getting close to the image circle.

    Chris
    The only time I ever notice the distortion is when there is a high contrast straight line running the entire length of frame that is also right next to the edge of frame. It is there, but you really have to be looking for it. It is relatively simple to correct and the Alpa lens corrector does a pretty good job.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don, a word of caution on C1 LCC correction on the 35XL (and any other lens giving severe lens cast) - it appears that the software shifts the curves to make the colour corrections, but when it runs into areas where the extent of colour shift is severe, it also begins to desaturate colour in those areas. This is particularly noticeable in blue skies that have gone magenta from lens cast. As the necessary correction gets more severe, blue skies will desaturate, in some cases almost to gray. So in some cases, whilst you may not see the obvious magenta cast, you will have nonetheless lost a lot of colour. The moral of the story is that the IQ180/35XL combo with shift is a dud.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    A few others asked for the files so......Here are 32HR and 35XL images -- just doing my part to help Dante

    Links to RAW files and full-size JPG below. Feel free to process and post etc. I think the 32HR can be better in the extreme bottom corners with slight tilt. This lens does have a slight focus shift. I will post my qualitative (but unqualified amateur) thoughts on both lenses as soon as I get some time. Also, the Alpa lens corrector could probably iron out the distortion as well. Hope you guys find this helpful.


    1. Quick & dirty C1 7 Processed - LCC, WB, default sharpening, exposure adjustment, clarity/structure (same on both with the exception WB, exposure and LCC)
    2. PS - Stitch (Reposition/Blend), Resize
    3. All RAW files, and full stitched JPG available at:



    32HR |Rm3di/IQ180 | ISO 35 f8 1/8s | Centre/15mm Right/15mm Left


    35XL - Rm3di/IQ180 w/CF | ISO 35 f11 1/2s | Center/15mm Right/15mm Left

  31. #31
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    After downloading the files for the 35mm I opened them in C1 7.2 and cloned each file. I cloned the files so I could easily switch back and forth between the file. The first step was to create the LCC profile and comparing the profile with the original. In each case C1 7.2 did an excellent job with the color caste. I then applied the LCC to the image.

    Jagsiva was kind enough to provide 6-files; center, 15mm right and left with corresponding LCC.

    Doing no other processing other than to save the 3-image files using my Photoshop receipt I then open the Tiff files in CS6 and using the Photomerge tool created a panorama. Viewing the files on my color calibrated 30" monitor I began to pixel peep the finished image.

    On a whole I'm pleased to see how well the 35mm XL plays with the IQ180. There still appears to be some color shifting. I noticed in the lower left corner where the grass takes on a reddish color and in the house on the right there appears to be a difference in color in the brick as well as on the roof (of course this could just be the house itself). Looking at the sky it appears there is a very slight color shifting as you go from left to right; then again with a winter sky that could happen.

    Bottom line is that while it appears the 35XL (with CF) might be able to do an adequate job on an IQ180 I fear there's more to it. Just as I wrote that last sentence I picked up a reddish color path on the white garage on the left.

    I'm very pleased to see the 15mm shift results which give an image of 16080 x 7768 pixels. This size is more than enough for my panoramas as I have no doubt it will go even larger.

    Here's the finish - Based on the files provided me from Mal and Jag I've concluded that my best next step is to order the HR40. I've spoken with Dave G. and have one with T/S on the way.

    I can't begin to thank you all for the support given here and if there is anyway I can repay it please let me know.

    Don
    With the IQ 180 really the bottom line is either the Rodie 28,32 or 40 are your best and least problematic lenses over the SK. My only problem with the 32 is its size and care must be given to it with regards to carrying it around. I personally liked the Rodie 28 as it was wide and fun to use and very sharp. The 40 is probably the best all around wide for folks and is a nice balance between focal length and performance. On a tech cam maybe the most used lens would be the 40 for most shooting.

    BTW there is a color cast in everyone of them, it's not always seen when shooting landscape stuff but under test with a white wall you will see some color cast shifted or not. The 32 and 28 for instance you will see a magenta and green cast usually in the bottom middle of the frame without Center filters. But when real shooting sometimes this is overlooked as well. The 40 I can't speak of since I only used it a few times but never tested the color casts if any. Even my SK 60 which one would think there is none but there is a slight color cast. Obviously this will depend on how critical your color needs to be and landscape images many times this can be ignored.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Zug/Zurich (Switzerland), Dubai, Sydney
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    With the IQ 180 really the bottom line is either the Rodie 28,32 or 40 are your best and least problematic lenses over the SK. My only problem with the 32 is its size and care must be given to it with regards to carrying it around. I personally liked the Rodie 28 as it was wide and fun to use and very sharp. The 40 is probably the best all around wide for folks and is a nice balance between focal length and performance. On a tech cam maybe the most used lens would be the 40 for most shooting.

    BTW there is a color cast in everyone of them, it's not always seen when shooting landscape stuff but under test with a white wall you will see some color cast shifted or not. The 32 and 28 for instance you will see a magenta and green cast usually in the bottom middle of the frame without Center filters. But when real shooting sometimes this is overlooked as well. The 40 I can't speak of since I only used it a few times but never tested the color casts if any. Even my SK 60 which one would think there is none but there is a slight color cast. Obviously this will depend on how critical your color needs to be and landscape images many times this can be ignored.
    I'm curious as to why the 23HR-S Digaron/Alpagon doesn't rate a mention. This is the lens I use most - in the last 2 years, probably 90% of the frames I have exposed have been with this lens. It does throw lens cast, but it is well within the capabilities of the LCC software to correct it. However, the CF is essential in C1 6 if you want to avoid the desaturation from LCC. I haven't used it enough with C1 7 yet to have a clear opinion on this but the LCC solution in the new version is a massive improvement on v6.(Early indications are that v7 is less prone to desaturate areas that need correcting). If you are shooting with a tech cam and haven't upgraded yet, I strongly recommend that you do.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  33. #33
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I agree I would be all over version 7 with a tech cam. Phase seems to keep improving and improving the lens corrections with LCC's . Honestly some of our older tests with these lenses are getting outdated on each improvement of C1. They have done a lot of work on improving the the color casts that yesterday where pretty hard to deal with . Now I agree the 23 is a killer lens, I used it a couple times and its really really nice and wide as you may ever want. I say that with the big fun to shoot besides its description. It's limited on movements but honestly a lot of interior work only needs a few mm of movement anyway and worst case you tilt it up and fix with keystone tool. Lovely lens but you need a CF and you need to watch direct light hitting the front element. Depending on need going 23, 40, 70 , 120 is a excellent combo to have as a kit. I had the 28,60,90 which I loved. Obviously this comes down to need and let's face it cost. These lenses are not the cheapest toy in the store but under lock and key. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  34. #34
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Wow, a lot has happened overnight!

    Jag - thanks for posting larger files. The 32 looks much better than the 35 and I see the same problems in your 35 file as I saw on mine. One of the biggest issues is the patch of grass in the lower left corner.

    Guy - This'll sound a little off but for me I feel the 32 is just a little too wide for what I do. The combination of focal length, weight and price puts it into a place that if I ever needed it I'd see about renting. It's my understanding that the 32 (and 28) work better with a CF whereas the 40 doesn't require one. Also I understand (and I can be wrong) that the 28 and 32 both require LCC whereas the 40 it's a "nice to have" but not necessary.

    Brian - tanks for the comment. I've been using nothing but Schneider lenses for the past 4+ years. All of them at one time or another exhibited color casts depending on the circumstances; none so bad as they were fixable. In the case of attempting to use a 35XL with a 180 it's a non starter. Which was the sole reason that when I switched from a P65 I went to the 160 thinking at the time I was more than satisfied with the 35 XL. Just goes to show what thinking causes...

    Finally to echo Brian and Guy's thoughts on C1. As good as C1.6 was for wide-angle technical LCC C1.7 is much better. I've now seen this fact in both the files I've shot with the 160 but going backwards to older P65 and later still to P45 I see a vast improvements.

    Bottom line is if you shoot with a tech cam do yourself a huge favor and upgrade to C1.7 if you haven't done so already.

    Talked to Dave yesterday - I should have the HR40 soon; either before CI in Carmel or he'll hand deliver it there. I'll pass on whatever I can regarding LCC and image files as I get used to it either from here in Tucson or Carmel and hopefully in Death Valley as Sandy and I are spending a week there after we leave Carmel.

    One last thought this morning. My Schneider 35mm XL, Center Filter and Viewfinder Mask will be placed in the Buy/Sell section just as soon as I get the HR40.

    Thanks again for all the help

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  35. #35
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    ....

    Guy - This'll sound a little off but for me I feel the 32 is just a little too wide for what I do. The combination of focal length, weight and price puts it into a place that if I ever needed it I'd see about renting. ....
    Don
    The problem with "renting" the 32HR is that it doesn't resolve getting past the well-settled Dante's Rule of, "You touch it, you buy it."

    LCC still recommended for the HR40, as it at minimum evens out light fall-off at the edges. But, yes---gotta say the HR40 images look damned good straight out of the digital back pre-LCC.

    ken

  36. #36
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Just a followup here. FedEx just dropped off the new 40 t/s less than 30 minutes ago. It's a beast! I've tried it out in the rear yard and like it a lot! The 35XL is still listed for sale for anyone interested.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  37. #37
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don

    It may be interesting other than my self to see a direct comparison between the 35xl and the 40 before the 35 goes to live with someone else.

    For instance can you avoid using an LCC when using the 40 without extreme shifts?

    Anyway, congratulations on the new lens -



    Regards



    Mal

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    1,033
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Just a followup here. FedEx just dropped off the new 40 t/s less than 30 minutes ago. It's a beast! I've tried it out in the rear yard and like it a lot! The 35XL is still listed for sale for anyone interested.

    Don
    Would be very interested to hear if there are any symmetry issues left vs. right with the lens wide open. It would be great to hear that Rody has that kind of quality control.

  39. #39
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I'll try and get some side by side tests done soon however remember I still "only" have an IQ160...

    Don

    I did a couple really quick down and dirty tests right after getting the package and before I had to go into a meeting with clients. Shooting outside in my back yard (my normal testing place) I saw what I think is proof that the LCC isn't neceaasry for all shots. I'll try and set some time aside tomorrow and get some real testing done.
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  40. #40
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I'll try and get some side by side tests done soon however remember I still "only" have an IQ160...

    Don

    I did a couple really quick down and dirty tests right after getting the package and before I had to go into a meeting with clients. Shooting outside in my back yard (my normal testing place) I saw what I think is proof that the LCC isn't neceaasry for all shots. I'll try and set some time aside tomorrow and get some real testing done.
    Don, why upgrade from the IQ160 to 180 besides the better color, more dots and incredible DR? ;0

    If I had to do it again, I might opt for the HR40 over the HR32.

  41. #41
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Ed

    Do you mind sharing your logic re the HR40 Vs HR32?

    You do really fantastic wide angle shots so I guess I am surprised by your comment.



    Mal

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Don, why upgrade from the IQ160 to 180 besides the better color, more dots and incredible DR? ;0

    If I had to do it again, I might opt for the HR40 over the HR32.
    Ed, I'm not saying that I'm upgrading anytime soon if ever. I guess what I really want is the ability to upgrade should I ever really want to. By ability I mean that my lenses will work with either with no issues. The one thing I like the most is the ability to shoot ISO35 as I always want to shoot as low as I possible can. Knowing my luck the next IQ will shoot lower than 35 and then I'll want that one as well...

    I remember seeing your HR32 in Florida last year; size wise that thing is a beast. As nice as it is I think for what I do for landscape work it's just too wide when compared to either the 35 or 40mm lenses; if I need/want to go supper-wide all I need to do is stitch. Truth be told is that I use my 72 more than the 35 or 120 when I'm in Jackson Hole.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  43. #43
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Okay, I might be shooting myself in the foot seeing as how I'm selling the 35XL but here it goes.

    This is a comparison between the HR40 t/s and SK35XL taken using my Cambo WRS and IQ160. No center filter on the 40; the 35 has it. Three shots, no correction center, 10mm left and right. No LCC was done at the time with either lens however after seeing the 35 I wanted to show what it'd look like with just a small amount of work so I went back out and shot 3-LCCs. I didn't shoot any LCCs for the 40 for the simple reason none of the files looked like they needed them; in practice I'll continue to shoot LCCs as it better to have them and not need them.


    HR40 10mm Left

    HR40 Center

    HR40 10mm Right

    Next the 35XL unprocessed
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  44. #44
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    I understand this is away from my original question however some people asked to see the difference and frankly I was interested as well. This set of images are from the Schneider 35mm XL with center filter and no LCC correction.


    35mm 10mm Left

    35mm Center


    35mm 10mm Right

    Next is the corrected files for the 35mm
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  45. #45
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Here's the end of it, corrected files using LCCs. I've never had a problem using the 35mm with either the P45, P65 or IQ160 so long as I take just a little effort in shooting LCCs - however that's the nature of the beast in using a tech cam. I routinely shoot an LCC for all my lenses, 72 and 120mm.


    35mm 10mm Left - Corrected

    35mm Center - Corrected

    35mm 10mm Right - Corrected

    One last note - I've done all the processing on my laptop so I can have the files readily available for the next couple weeks while I'm on the road.

    Hope these help.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  46. #46
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    For those using the HR40 on the IQ180, do you have any observations that might be useful as a summary of your experience? My dealer has had all my Phase kit for sale for many months now and hasn't been able to shift the back, body or 80mm kit lens. Everything else is gone. I still have the Cambo WRS and 35XL 'back at base' and if the dealer can't sell the back, as he appears not to be able to, then I might well just take it back and keep it, advertise the 35XL and the Phase body and kit lens for sale and buy a 40HR on an 840 TS panel. This will fill in the gap created by there being no decent wide TS lens in Nikon mount at the moment.

    With the 35 XL I can can shoot at F16 and distance set to between 3 and 5 metres and everything is always in focus. It's just that the LCC thing is a pain and not effective with movements.

    So I'd be really interested to hear what the practical smallest aperture usage of the HR40 is on the IQ180 before diffraction becomes a real issue, and what focus and DOF techniques people use at that aperture if they have a landscape to shoot and want as much in focus as possible which, for me, means 'from infinity to as near the camera as I can achieve'?

    Thanks in advance!

  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,926
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Schneider 35mm and an IQ180

    Don

    If you have the time can you shift the 40mm out to 15 or 18mm? I curious to see if there is much sat or detail falloff and if the lens shows the hard corner vignetting aka the disk that shows up with the rod 35 23 and 28?

    Thanks Paul Caldwell

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •