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Thread: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

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    New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Is anyone using the new yellow banded Rodenstock 90mm HR Alpagon? its a fearsome price - in the $7000 range, so wondering if its a real step up from the blue banded 90mm Digaron-W range?

    It seems Alpa are re-branding all the Digaron-W range as 'Alpagon' now, to avoid direct comparison to unmounted Rodenstock lenses. But this is genuinely an all new lens, and hopefully an improvement - but how noticeable a one, I'm not sure.

    Any feedback on this 90mm welcomed (or Digaron-W 50mm, I'm looking at that too)

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    This might give you a preview of what to expect; I'm interested in the new 90mm HR too. I'll get to play around with one next month...

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ts-limits.html

    ken

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Simply put, the 90HR is the sharpest lens I've ever used...

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    I own the 100 Schneider which is one of the sharpest lenses in my Alpa arsenal. The 90HR at twice the cost is just that..... twice the cost but twice the resolution??? I think they are the same as far as resolution but you have to compare them. I highly recommend you take the time to compare those two lenses......

    Victor

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    From what I have read is the Rodi's have a better resolution when tilting and shifting... For my work this is of utmost importance.
    From personal experience I have not tried the 100 schneider, but I have tried the 72, 47, and 35 Schneiders. I prefer the colors and over all look of the Rodenstocks. Especially the way Rodi's out of focus rendition.

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I own the 100 Schneider which is one of the sharpest lenses in my Alpa arsenal. The 90HR at twice the cost is just that..... twice the cost but twice the resolution??? I think they are the same as far as resolution but you have to compare them. I highly recommend you take the time to compare those two lenses......

    Victor

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by shortpballer View Post
    From what I have read is the Rodi's have a better resolution when tilting and shifting... For my work this is of utmost importance.
    From personal experience I have not tried the 100 schneider, but I have tried the 72, 47, and 35 Schneiders. I prefer the colors and over all look of the Rodenstocks. Especially the way Rodi's out of focus rendition.
    Why do you think this is? The Rodies are much better performers at the larger apertures, but once you are down to "normal" working apertures, there is usually not much difference between them. How might this be different when using T/S?
    I always thought that the main factor in determining OOF rendition (bokeh to some) was the number of blades in the shutter, and these are identical in the two brands if you use the same shutter, be it Copal, Rollei ar whatever. If, in fact there is a difference in rendition, what do you think are the factors at play?
    I am looking for facts, not speculation here. Any of our optical gurus care to chime in?
    Siebel
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I own the 100 Schneider which is one of the sharpest lenses in my Alpa arsenal. The 90HR at twice the cost is just that..... twice the cost but twice the resolution??? I think they are the same as far as resolution but you have to compare them. I highly recommend you take the time to compare those two lenses......

    Victor
    Resolution is only one of the performance criteria in lens design and is affected by the law of diminishing returns just as any other "advantage" a dearer lens might offer. However, given that current design philosophies at Rodie and SK are in my observation much more different than each other these days than it has been in the past, I'd be looking at other criteria as well. I cannot speak for this specific focal length, but my experience of current lenses from both manufacturers (as opposed to their legacy designs) tells me that as a general rule, the Rodies perform much, much better than the SK's at max apertures, there are differences in field curvature and probably several other areas where the 90 might outperform the 100. For one thing, the Rodie has a 120mm image circle as opposed to the SK's 100mm. To someone like me who likes to shoot with wafer-thin DOF in precisely the plane of my choice, with lots of shift this makes the Rodie a clear advantage. Also, as a pro, I am prone to view the price difference in terms of "how many days fees do I have to spend to get the better choice" (assuming that better is dearer, which isn't always so). In this case, that difference is not even one days fees and as such, would not factor hugely in my thinking. Whether or not the dearer lens would allow me to shoot in a way the cheaper lens can't, and equally, the way my competitors who go cheap can't would factor larger in my thinking. My philosophy is "buy the right/best gear, buy it once, and be done with it". Many here would disagree with me but ,hey, that's why they call these 'discussion forums', right?
    I should mention that I am running an IQ180 which puts severe demands on optics that sensors with smaller surface areas and/or larger pixels might not.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Tested the lens in December 2012 on an artec with a Leaf 33 megapixel back and a Leaf 80 megapixel back directly compared to the previous 90 Rodenstock - which is no slouch either.

    THIS new 90mm lens is the first lens that does justice to elephant gun backs - and is the lens which presages a new range from Rodenstock - designed to be used with 60+ megapixels.

    Large image circle as indicated above and super sharp as in super sharp edge to edge. Loved it enough to consider going to 60 megapixels.

    if you (like me) shoot with 33-40 megapixel backs - the older 90mm from Rodenstock is PLENTY sharp. if you like the new (maybe) me - are using 60-80 megapixels and want to match lens resolving power to back - something which isn't spoken about enough...then it is worth the cashola.

    For 7k you are buying Leica type quality to be used on 80 megapixels -pretty cool.

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    I must stop reading this thread ... I was happy with my uber sharp 90 HR-W and now that pesky GetDPI upgrade demon is sitting on my shoulder whispering in my ear about how poor my existing lens is, even though it's arguably already one of the sharpest lenses I own today.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Y'know, Graham---that new 90mm HR is gonna be at CI in Carmel....so is the 240LS....




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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Luckily CI don't carry Alpa to tempt me with. I will however be asking to try out the 240LS.

    Btw, Amr sent me through a shot of the 32HR & new 90HR side by side. That new 90HR is one BIG lens with a huge butt ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    The old hr-w is awesome. I use it currently on 6x7 film and it's razor sharp even with up to 15mm shift. This new optic must be amazing to better it.

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    The old hr-w is awesome. I use it currently on 6x7 film and it's razor sharp even with up to 15mm shift. This new optic must be amazing to better it.
    I agree. I daren't look at the new one.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Oh.... I am dreading this conversation with Frau Siebel......
    Siebel
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    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    That new 90HR is one BIG lens with a huge butt ...
    I usually like smaller compact packages. But this might be that time where big butts drive me nuts. Dave mentioned it was a substantial lens....

    The lack of an "Alpagon" version at CI Carmel won't protect you much as I'm sure you'll get a pretty good idea seeing the 90HR images captured on the other tech camera mounts.

    ken

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Resolution is only one of the performance criteria in lens design and is affected by the law of diminishing returns just as any other "advantage" a dearer lens might offer. However, given that current design philosophies at Rodie and SK are in my observation much more different than each other these days than it has been in the past, I'd be looking at other criteria as well. I cannot speak for this specific focal length, but my experience of current lenses from both manufacturers (as opposed to their legacy designs) tells me that as a general rule, the Rodies perform much, much better than the SK's at max apertures, there are differences in field curvature and probably several other areas where the 90 might outperform the 100. For one thing, the Rodie has a 120mm image circle as opposed to the SK's 100mm. To someone like me who likes to shoot with wafer-thin DOF in precisely the plane of my choice, with lots of shift this makes the Rodie a clear advantage. Also, as a pro, I am prone to view the price difference in terms of "how many days fees do I have to spend to get the better choice" (assuming that better is dearer, which isn't always so). In this case, that difference is not even one days fees and as such, would not factor hugely in my thinking. Whether or not the dearer lens would allow me to shoot in a way the cheaper lens can't, and equally, the way my competitors who go cheap can't would factor larger in my thinking. My philosophy is "buy the right/best gear, buy it once, and be done with it". Many here would disagree with me but ,hey, that's why they call these 'discussion forums', right?
    I should mention that I am running an IQ180 which puts severe demands on optics that sensors with smaller surface areas and/or larger pixels might not.
    Cheers,
    You are so right regarding Schneider Digitar lenses inability to shoot wide open. The only Schneider lens I have that I would shoot wide open is the 150mm Digitar. I don't currently own any of the Rody lenses but I did audition a 50 that was way out of alignment (left to right). That is my biggest complaint with all of these lenses...... for the money they should be as close to perfect as possible and yet they aren't. I cross my fingers when making a purchase and demand from whomever I buy from that if I'm unhappy I can return the lens. A real shame!

    Victor

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I agree. I daren't look at the new one.
    Graham

    I believe you have already lost and you will soon have the
    HR-DIGARON SW 5,6/90 .

    Looking at the datasheet , I found quite some differences in comparison to the "Old" HR-W 5,6/90 .

    The first thing you will see is the yellow ring on the front barrel . Haha
    The IC is 5mm less and is now 120mm . The total length of the lens is 25mm
    longer and it weighs 220 Grams more . Also the lens requires a bigger filter , 72mm instead of 67mm .
    The lens will replace the "Old" one and is designed to be used for backs with pixel sizes as small as 5 microns .

    Looking at the MTF curves the lens Must be outstanding .
    The same is valid for the price .

    Of course , I would like to get that lens , but my "Old" HR-W 5,6/90mm performs very well with my backs for what I shoot .

    I am very curious to see some first results .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    I for one would like to see where the MFD companies are going with their next generation of backs before I invest heavily in updated versions of lenses I already own, regardless of how good I know they will be.

    Are we to expect 100 Mpix 4.X micron sensors, larger sensors, CMOS sensors or will we all be needing to buy Cine lenses....???
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Why not got o full 645 format. That would give a 20% increase in total resolution at the current pixel pitch....

    Otherwise, outside of very specific applications, I'm not sure what more resolution is going to do. I'm just looking at a 3 frame flat stitch from my IQ180 at 125MP, and I could print this out to almost 6" wide at 300dpi!!!

    So better noise and DR for the sensors, and better/innovative bodies is what I'd like to see . The iXR is already a different kind of thinking. Get rid of the mirror in the DF and do something that improves the user experience. I want the IQ180 file quality, D800 handling, in a package no bigger than a Canon 1 series. Too much to ask?

    In the meantime, I love what we do have. Truly remarkable image quality, especially on a tech cam.

    oh, and Dante's has already been by, I'm ordering the 90SW
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    I got quite a few messages from people asking if my post I made a couple weeks ago was regarding the new Alpagon lens. It is in fact the new 90HR.
    Here is a link to some test shots from the new 90 HR "Alpagon" with yellow band. This lens is FAR sharper than any lens I've ever used.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ts-limits.html

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Graham

    I believe you have already lost and you will soon have the
    HR-DIGARON SW 5,6/90 .

    Looking at the datasheet , I found quite some differences in comparison to the "Old" HR-W 5,6/90 .

    The first thing you will see is the yellow ring on the front barrel . Haha
    The IC is 5mm less and is now 120mm . The total length of the lens is 25mm
    longer and it weighs 220 Grams more . Also the lens requires a bigger filter , 72mm instead of 67mm .
    The lens will replace the "Old" one and is designed to be used for backs with pixel sizes as small as 5 microns .

    Looking at the MTF curves the lens Must be outstanding .
    The same is valid for the price .

    Of course , I would like to get that lens , but my "Old" HR-W 5,6/90mm performs very well with my backs for what I shoot .

    I am very curious to see some first results .

  21. #21
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Thank you for your hint .
    I was not aware of that thread . Interesting .
    I assume , that other HR-DIGARON lenses will be redesigned as well .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Rodenstock used to mention that they had produced new lenses that accommodated the optical properties of the digital sensor glass and also with better than 80 lp/mm in HR-W. However, the 70 HR-W and 90 HR-W were renamed versions of the existing APO-Sironars since at the time they thought that they were good enough as-is. Presumably since they updated the 90mm with the 90 HR-SW, they'll also update the 70/5.6 HR-W now too??

    All I know is that they all cost an arm and a leg ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Personally I would like a new 50 to fill in the gap between my 32 and 90

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Rodenstock used to mention that they had produced new lenses that accommodated the optical properties of the digital sensor glass and also with better than 80 lp/mm in HR-W. However, the 70 HR-W and 90 HR-W were renamed versions of the existing APO-Sironars since at the time they thought that they were good enough as-is. Presumably since they updated the 90mm with the 90 HR-SW, they'll also update the 70/5.6 HR-W now too??

    All I know is that they all cost an arm and a leg ...

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    I dream of a 19mm HR-W Alpagon.....{sigh}. The 23HR-S is my fave lens but sometimes even it just isn't wide enough.
    Siebel
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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Not listening...

    My pack is too heavy already and this talk of best ever is hazardous to my wallet.

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    Re: New 90mm Rodenstock Alpa HR 'Alpagon' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Not listening...

    My pack is too heavy already and this talk of best ever is hazardous to my wallet.
    You are not the only one . Same here . I do try not to listen to the sirens .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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