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Thread: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

  1. #51
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    how long will it be before the 65 starts to push the limits if the current MF lenses...and then what, will only the Schneider big guns do it, and what camera will they require?
    Hi John:

    We may be there already... The good news is that the best MF lenses delivered fine performance on the P65+. The downside is any anomalies were seen quickly, like the corner fall-off on the 28. Moreover, using the back on the Cambo with the Schneider Digitars showed impressive performance corner-to-corner.

    My thinking is the P65+ (or any of the newest ultra-high rez sensors) are going to almost demand a dedicated "super system" -- say an Alpa, Cambo or Silvestri with your favorite focal lengths -- along with whatever DSLR you plan to use it with for the more "grab and go" shooting.

    One thing we really noticed in this test was how friendly the P25+ 9-micron pixels are to most MF lenses. I may start a separate thread on my observations and theories on this subject...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  2. #52
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    One thing we really noticed in this test was how friendly the P25+ 9-micron pixels are to most MF lenses. I may start a separate thread on my observations and theories on this subject...

    Cheers,
    This is a "conclusion" that I've been beginning to draw as I have looked at my P25+ files and the various files of other backs such as the P45+ and the P65+, etc. Obviously in this thread we're looking at web jpegs, but there is a certain look that starts to creep through with the higher resolution backs and the lenses which are not quite like the 150mm f/2.8 "D", etc. I'll be very interested in your observations, Jack, as you've now how opportunities for truly direct comparisons b/n the backs with various lenses.

    I like my modest Mamiya glass, but might not be so thrilled with the results if they were attached to a higher resolution back, though from what I've seen I believe that a 39MP back with the same modest glass would still work great in most cases for my needs/wants.

    That said, the prospects of a technical camera and the PP65+ for landscapes is really appealing.

  3. #53
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi John:
    One thing we really noticed in this test was how friendly the P25+ 9-micron pixels are to most MF lenses. I may start a separate thread on my observations and theories on this subject...
    It is clear from the mtf plots and is computable.
    -bob

  4. #54
    karrphoto
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I guess I had nothing better to do today, if you want to see the 3 on top of each other, I created a quick movie, 2 seconds per frame. Highest quality Quicktime.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wow the detail. Still the 150mm
    Jeez, Jack, you make that Phase One camera look like a G10. Get a digital Graphlex, will'ya?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by karrphoto View Post
    I guess I had nothing better to do today, if you want to see the 3 on top of each other, I created a quick movie, 2 seconds per frame. Highest quality Quicktime.
    I guess I had nothing better to do either (at least that I wanted to do), so I watched it.

    Thanks, that's an interesting way to compare the files.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 4th December 2008 at 13:49.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    thanks for doing the a QT will look at when I get home. We are in route to airport
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    It is clear from the mtf plots and is computable.
    -bob
    Bob:



    Looking at your avatar, did you sell the shirt off your back to buy a Phase back

    Robert

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Courtesy of Vistek in Toronto I too was able to play with a pre-production P65+ (serial 00007!) for a few minutes today. I shot a few comparisons with my P45+ and while they are very unscientific, they confirm Jack and Guy's findings. Just a tad more DR and better resolution, though the latter is unlikely to be seen in anything but very very large prints.

    I certainly don't need a P65+, but......

    Bill

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Bob:



    Looking at your avatar, did you sell the shirt off your back to buy a Phase back

    Robert
    Inquiring minds want to know?

  11. #61
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I'm at San Jose airport waiting to fly home and Bob must have ordered a P65 Plus i guess at least he gave a down payment with the shirt off his back.

    BTW thanks everyone for looking and making comments on these. We thought it was important to give you folks the low down on this back and it certainly will be something to look at for some folks and it also reminds us of keeping our feet planted firmly on the ground as what to expect from these backs . This also gives a better chance to determine what your needs are and what you don't need. I know Jack and i want our members to make smart buying decisions no matter what brand or what kind of system. This is again one piece of the puzzle to the end result.

    Okay time to board flight to go home . Special thanks to Lance Schad, Steve Hendrix and to my best bud Jack for giving me a chance to play with the P65 Plus and give our members our thoughts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    Inquiring minds want to know?
    Nothing so involved as that,
    You see, I get these model portfolios from time to time, and all the ladies are dressed in their underwear or less. One of them asked what I looked like, so I shot this with the camera in my macbook. Just truth in advertising in a way...
    -bob

  13. #63
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    That was a short little trip. They boys didn't want to get too attached to the toys.

  14. #64
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Well I came home to my 30 inch display and a computer that can actually handle these files. Our laptops which are MPB certainly where taking there time to process stuff and being on 15 inch screens was certainly hard to truly see what these files look like. Anyway i found a extra shot that I did nothing with at all and just processed it. Pretty amazing DR here but if I processed this for real i would actually add black to it. This was very early in the morning and handheld at 1/200 at 6.8 with my 150 2.8 from across the street. Pretty interesting. Who needs reading glasses.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  15. #65
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    This crop here is pretty scary with regards to DR. That is some detail being shown in some pretty deep shadows
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Just for kicks i sharpened this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Oh well back to the real world, my P25 +.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #68
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Just a FYI . We will have a P65+ full production unit at the Moab workshop in January along with all the Phase backs , Cambo's, Silvestri's and anything else we can get from the OEM's to demo and have our workshop members use. Great chance to try this stuff out first and in the process get a real learning experience.Not to mention all the great images to go home with. We need 2 more folks to make this a go. Our deadline is December 10th and give me a nice BD present today and sign up. LOL

    BTW this is on the Capture Integration site http://www.captureintegration.com/20...test-out-west/
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Hey, Happy Birthday! Guy!

  20. #70
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Thanks Dale
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Happy Birthday, Guy. Thanks for bringing us this sneak peak. I really appreciate it that you and Jack keep us up to date.

  22. #72
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Happy Birthday Guy!

  23. #73
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Thanks folks . Let's just hope this time next year we are all happy , healthy and we can survive this downturn.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Hey, hippo birdie two ewe!
    Carsten - Website

  25. #75
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Still would like to know if there is any possibility of mounting any of those new Leica S2 lenses on the back ... any more details out there on the Phase/Leica partnership?

  26. #76
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Nothing in the wind yet Kurt maybe by January when Leica starts announcing Pro service we will hear something. Until than i will just carry on to be honest not sure i want to do this the third time with Leica out of the gate. Getting old. LOL
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I completely understand where you are coming from ... I'm just fantasizing about how nice it would be to have the option of a few Leica lenses to attach to what looks to be an excellent sensor.

  28. #78
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    You bet . Leica has a couple they announced i would give my eye teeth for.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  29. #79
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    The detail in the images is pretty incredible, almost scary.

    So how long did it take for the cops to show up when one of you ran with the P65+ after distracting Lance for a few seconds?


    Man, I really want one.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Has anyone done any 2 minute or so exposures with the 65+ at iso 50? Would love to hear specific results....re: noise, black pixel speckles, etc etc. Eleanor

  31. #81
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Not yet Eleanor but as soon as i get the production unit certainly a test i want to try out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  32. #82
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    And what does this incremental increase in DR and resolution cost, say if you trade your P45+ for the P65+ ? Seems like burning money for very little benefit whatever it costs.

    I got a quote for trading my Aptus 75S for the new Aptus 10 and it was something like $19K ! That would be like buying the 75S all over again.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    There is sensor plus technology and also FF capability so there are some other benefits as far as costs I think it is a 17k or 20k upgrade from a P45 plus but don't quote me check with a dealer. Also the money means nothing to some folks. They want the biggest baddest back out there and will pay for it. I certainly don't fit in that category but many do. BTW Doug what would be the real benefit to move up to the Aptus 10 at around the same price. Some benefits of course but along the same lines. Just depends on what your needs are and what you want. Seems no different through all the systems
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  34. #84
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I wouldn't do it either. Easy enough to stitch two frames anyway to get more resolution.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    At first, I was excited about the thought of an upgrade ... but, after looking at the price of such an upgrade (even from a P45+ back) ... I've blinked away the fairy dust. The price of entry is much too steep. What's especially eye-opening is watching the value of used MFDB backs plummet even as manufacturers try to keep the used market from being over-saturated.

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I would not mind upgrading but in the process i can see divorce papers being delivered at the same time. Not a good thing. LOL
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I know exactly what you are talking about, Guy.

    I won't deny that I'd be thrilled to own one. But the price of admission is killer.

    Kurt

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would not mind upgrading but in the process i can see divorce papers being delivered at the same time. Not a good thing. LOL
    Isn't Arizona a community property state? (which means your wife would be entitled to 1/2 of that P65+ MFDB...)

    Thank God I don't have a wife to worry about that....


  39. #89
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Yea and I get shoes. Big deal. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Isn't Arizona a community property state? (which means your wife would be entitled to 1/2 of that P65+ MFDB...)

    Thank God I don't have a wife to worry about that....

    Yeah, trading up from a 22MP back to a 60MP/2 = 30MP back is just not worth it at that price. Especially if you then don't have anywhere to live. I mean, where would Guy then shoot basic test shots?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Just got back from a test shoot of the P65 on a Cambo RS and Rodenstock 55hr with Dave from Capture Integration. All I can say is absolutely stunning! The level of detail was staggering! I am still unable to look at the LCC's on a calibrated monitor, as I'm curious to see how much of the color shift has improved since my P25 with the wider lenses, but what I saw on the 17' laptop was quite impressive. I haven't seen a camera that made my jaw drop like that in years.

    Now if I could just get some of that bailout $ from Obama.... I promise, it will go right back into the enconomy, straight to the P1 dealer....

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
    Just got back from a test shoot of the P65 on a Cambo RS and Rodenstock 55hr with Dave from Capture Integration. All I can say is absolutely stunning! The level of detail was staggering! I am still unable to look at the LCC's on a calibrated monitor, as I'm curious to see how much of the color shift has improved since my P25 with the wider lenses, but what I saw on the 17' laptop was quite impressive. I haven't seen a camera that made my jaw drop like that in years.

    Now if I could just get some of that bailout $ from Obama.... I promise, it will go right back into the enconomy, straight to the P1 dealer....
    Dave just showed me some of the files that you shot. You are right.. they are very impressive! The detail is incredible! As soon as Dave gets them processed, I'll make sure that they are available for everyone to take a glance at.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak



    Just did not get enough in my paper bag the last time i asked or was it demanded money from the bank. Maybe the ski mask color was all wrong. LOL


    Post some up guy's and just really make us jealous. LOL
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I've been reading message boards and have seen different descriptions of sensor + technology so maybe someone can clarify. I know with sensor plus at 1600 iso the files are reduced to 15 megapixels. OK...what about if sensor plus is enabled and you shoot at 100 or 200 or 400 iso....are the resulting files still at 15 megapixels due to pixel bining, or....are these sensor plus enabled files shot at 100 to 400 iso full res 60 megapixel files? Anyone know or can clarify? Thanks! Eleanor

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    No, with sensor+ they're always 15MP but with less noise (at every ISO).

    I still don't understand why sensor+ is only possible in the camera and not just a function of the raw-converter!? It must be tricky to make binning in a bayer-sensor work, but the same algorithm has to work on a P45+ or any RAW-image captured with a bayer-filtered-sensor (even when the file-size is not reduced in camera).

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by eleanorbrown View Post
    I've been reading message boards and have seen different descriptions of sensor + technology so maybe someone can clarify. I know with sensor plus at 1600 iso the files are reduced to 15 megapixels. OK...what about if sensor plus is enabled and you shoot at 100 or 200 or 400 iso....are the resulting files still at 15 megapixels due to pixel bining, or....are these sensor plus enabled files shot at 100 to 400 iso full res 60 megapixel files? Anyone know or can clarify? Thanks! Eleanor
    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    No, with sensor+ they're always 15MP but with less noise (at every ISO).

    I still don't understand why sensor+ is only possible in the camera and not just a function of the raw-converter!? It must be tricky to make binning in a bayer-sensor work, but the same algorithm has to work on a P45+ or any RAW-image captured with a bayer-filtered-sensor (even when the file-size is not reduced in camera).
    Sensor+ Raises the effective ISO by two stops while reducing the resolution to 15 megapixels. So you can shoot in the normal 60.5 megapixel at ISO 50, 100, 200, 400, 800 or in Sensor Plus at 15 megapixels at ISO 200, 400, 800, 1600, or ISO 3200. The two sets of ISOs correspond quite strongly such that Normal_ISO_50 is roughly equal in look when viewed at 100% as SensorPlus_ISO_200. Likewise:
    Normal_100=SP_400
    Normal_200=SP_800
    Normal_400=SP_1600
    Normal_800=SP_3200

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Yes, but isn't it just a special algorithm which could be implemented in C1 for every bayer-filtered RAW-file?

    Normaly 4 photosites (2 green, 1 blue, 1 red) are used to get the color information, then a special algorithm in the RAW-converter "debayers" the 4 photosites again, seperating the big "color pixel" into the 4 separate one and interpolates the color information to them with the help of the luminance information.

    There are algorithms available, which don't use interpolation to get a higher quality but the size of the image is reduced (some digital cinema-cameras use 6MP-sensors to get a 2MP image). The big difference is that the RAW-file is about as big as the final TIFF (normally they're about three times smaller).

    I think the sensor+ algorithm works this way:
    16 photosites (4x red, 4x blue, 8x green) are binned into 4 (4->1x red...) effective pixels and stored that way, a debayer-"algorithm" is then interpolating 4 colored pixels out of them, just like it would do with a native 15MP-bayer-sensor.

    Such an algorithm should be easily implemented into RAW-converters for other cameras (of course their RAW-file-size and processing speed would remain the same).

    I don't think that hardware (at least not the CCD) has anything to do with it.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Frankly, if I downsize a regular P45+ file to 1/4 size, the noise at ISO 1600 (800 pushed one) becomes quite livable as it is, no other special processing required. Of course I only end up with a 9.5MP image when I'm done...
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    I still don't understand why sensor+ is only possible in the camera and not just a function of the raw-converter!?
    Here's my (EE) perspective on it. The major source of noise is in the ADC, not in the image grid itself. This is called quantization noise. Running the ADC at a lower speed has an inverse square effect on noise. However, you can't just sample 15MP in the same time the image grid clocks out 65MP or you'd get garbage. So the pixels are electrically binned in the output stage - they're internally read a few lines ahead, then combined into a lower sample rate output, then clocked out at the lower rate (and fewer lines) and quantized (digitized) at a lower rate.

    Maybe they even have two different ADCs for the two different rates - one that pushes the envelope for conversion speed while compromising fidelity, and one that pushes the envelope for fidelity but with a more modest speed limit (which then dictates a 15MP resolution bound at some acceptable frame rate). In that case maybe the image grid has two separate analog readouts - which would make sense to keep the paths clean.
    Last edited by Jan Brittenson; 25th March 2009 at 11:27.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Binning before AD-conversion makes absolutely sense, thanks!

    I'm wondering if the 9.3MP-mode in the S2 will work as well (+microlenses + f2.5-lenses).

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