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Thread: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Well it's in our hot grubby hands. Lance Schad from Capture Integration (and you may want to copy this down now just in case: 305 394-3196, e-mail lance-at-captureintegration.com) was kind enough to arrange with Steve Hendrix from Phase One the P65+ for us to test. What Lance did not know when he hit San Francisco to meet us that we kidnapped him and brought him to the Seirra's to test the P65 against the P25 and P45 + backs. Let's get some of the details out of the way first. Let's remember this is a pre-production back and the firmware is obviously not optimized yet for full production shipping. So think of this as a sneak peak of what is too come. At this time there are some recommended parameters such as not to use the back above ISO 100 and not to go longer than 1 minute on exposures. Some quick details the raw files are 60 mgs each and a fully processed 16 bit Tiff is roughly 360 mg file. Holy smokes batman that is one big file and my laptop is feeling the pain. LOL

    We only have a few samples from today because of the weather and time permitting so tomorrow we are planning a full day of testing and also with the use of the Cambo RS 1000 and a full compliment of lenses from Schnieder and for our Phase body and a variety of Mamiya lenses.

    Here is a shot I shot off the deck of Jacks cabin hand held. Shot at ISO 100 at 1/350 second at F 9.5 with my 80mm lens, processed with basic P65+ settings in C1, NO additional sharpening or processing or adjustments. Basically, what you are seeing is straight out of the camera . Fair warning this is something else and credit cards will melt now. Personal attitude I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO LIKE THIS. Folks the detail is just scary and I am on a laptop no less. Full frame first than some 100 percent crops, 900 x900 pixels
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    PS 2nd to last image was the very far right edge of the P65 frame. Okay starting to take orders on custom made ski masks.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Here are couple of shots of me documenting Guy and Jack testing out the new back from my iPhone.
    We were just getting started.
    I think Jack was hogging the camera in this shot.
    More to follow.
    L
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I see that Jack sets the camera and tripod up high so that no one else can see to shoot.

    These are great, guys. Keep them coming.

  5. #5
    karrphoto
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I see that Jack sets the camera and tripod up high so that no one else can see to shoot.

    These are great, guys. Keep them coming.
    Haha. My kinda guy. I'm 6'9", so when setting up a tripod, not many other people can use it....

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Okay I can't resist posting this. Just horrible light out and shot handheld in a parking lot at ISO 100 at 1/230 of a second at F6.8 with my 80mm D lens. Now you should not be getting this kind of detail and even the color is good. BTW this does shoot 1 frame per second and you do feel the speed increase from the P25+ at 1.5 ever second
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Here's the shot I was taking in Lance's cell phone shot above -- and old Chevy Grille in the weeds, full frame then 100% crop. Note that the P65+ file at native size will print to 25x19 inches at 360PPI (!!!):
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by karrphoto View Post
    Haha. My kinda guy. I'm 6'9", so when setting up a tripod, not many other people can use it....
    Geeze, you and Don Libby are really big! I'd be the point guard at my measly 6'-6", 250
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    What am I the freaking ball or what
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    What am I the freaking ball or what
    Well, if you are the ball, at least you could revel at being in the game

    Another somewhat short guard at 6'4".....

    LJ

  11. #11
    treynor
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Good lord, that is awfully nice. The detail, and lack of CA, are staggering.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    VERY convincing resolution here chaps.
    Lance - the refund came through - made 35% on the currency play

    Good to see you guys having fun.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Looks around N37° 51.07' W 120° 11.53'
    Start the search there.
    -bob

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Nice to see someone else using the Arca Cube. I love that thing! Nice ear Lance!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Bob, you are close. The camera was at: 37/51/0.12 by 120/12/19.04
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Bob start saving. Love ya man but this one is going to hurt.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    FYI 16gb card 208 images on the P65, the P25 I would get 606 images in the IIQ L. Jack on his P45+ can get 359 images per 16gb card. Looks like the 32gb cards will be in order for the P65. Also C1 4.5.1 and 4.5.2 do have the P65 + profiles already in the software
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Looks like I have to find a way to stuff 64GB into my mac.
    -bob

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Guy, Jack, and Lance,
    Aside from the "you lucky dogs" comments on this, I have to say that the few images shown do show some rather impressive things for this back and right out of the camera. Since you guys are really out there to test the back and not lenses so much, it would be nice to see how things look with both that 28mm and the 150mm that Guy raves about. The interest on my part is seeing how well the DR looks with both. The opening shot taken with the 80mm does cover a lot of ground, and the crops show some very nice detail for sure. Any chance to get some shots in the shade where it would be possible to see how things resolve at the lower end of tones? It seems to be holding the mid and bright tones beautifully, with a crispness that starts to look a bit like some multi-shot things. So far, this one looks like a winner. Sometimes it is not just about the great resolution, but also about handling the tonal subtleties with all that resolution. (I make this comment as I keep seeing images from higher resolving DSLRs that seem to be losing some DR, with the darker tones looking less defined. The mid to bright tones almost always look fine, but the shadows tend to lose some of that impact. What you have posted here suggests the shadows may be holding more detail, which is great, but hard to tell from the selected crops.)

    Shooting in bright, high contrast light can make for some dramatic looking shots, but shooting in more flat light or shade would be interesting to see how good the tonal separations are. Just curious. Have some fun with this, and keep making the rest of us scratch our heads to figure out how to do some creative financing ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    I'm not sure what I'm seeing, but I see something. While there is plenty of pixels here for sure, the first shot has some blurring of fine details like the leaves. I also see luminance speckling in the first shot, in Lance's hair and forehead (mostly light specs), and in the texture of the truck grill (mostly dark specs). Not sure if this is due to its pre-production status or just bad JPG compression for web, but I saw it on my laptop screen this morning, then even clearer on my Eizo at work.

    I wonder on the first shot if the 80mm lens just isn't suited for infinity performance, as the close-up detail of Lance is much better.

    Something interesting came to mind when pondering what I'm looking at, as the files don't have the same sparkle and per-pixel crispness as Guy's P25+ (or even the ZD). Is it possible that the Mamiya MF lenses aren't really able to resolve what the sensor is? MF format lenses typically haven't had to resolve as much detail (lp/mm) as smaller format lenses because the surface area is so much larger and the net result was a greater amount of overall information in the scene and less enlargement required for a print. Now that the P65+ has pixels the same size as 35mm DSLRs, perhaps the lenses aren't really up to the task. Or maybe you just have to be very critical in selecting the right lenses to work with this back.

    Maybe I'm the only one who sees this, maybe not.

    I'll be very curios to see side-by-side, same lens, same settings shots from P25+, P45+, and the new P65+.

    Thanks,

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I'm not sure what I'm seeing, but I see something. While there is plenty of pixels here for sure, the first shot has some blurring of fine details like the leaves. I also see luminance speckling in the first shot, in Lance's hair and forehead (mostly light specs), and in the texture of the truck grill (mostly dark specs). Not sure if this is due to its pre-production status or just bad JPG compression for web, but I saw it on my laptop screen this morning, then even clearer on my Eizo at work.

    I wonder on the first shot if the 80mm lens just isn't suited for infinity performance, as the close-up detail of Lance is much better.

    Something interesting came to mind when pondering what I'm looking at, as the files don't have the same sparkle and per-pixel crispness as Guy's P25+ (or even the ZD). Is it possible that the Mamiya MF lenses aren't really able to resolve what the sensor is? MF format lenses typically haven't had to resolve as much detail (lp/mm) as smaller format lenses because the surface area is so much larger and the net result was a greater amount of overall information in the scene and less enlargement required for a print. Now that the P65+ has pixels the same size as 35mm DSLRs, perhaps the lenses aren't really up to the task. Or maybe you just have to be very critical in selecting the right lenses to work with this back.

    Maybe I'm the only one who sees this, maybe not.

    I'll be very curios to see side-by-side, same lens, same settings shots from P25+, P45+, and the new P65+.

    Thanks,

    David
    It's not just you: there are some definite artifacts in the images posted. I note aliasing problems in the hair, low-frequency-low-magnitude color noise, and some smearing of certain details.

    Pre-production firmware and preliminary-only support for the P65+ in the current public release of Capture One 4.5.2 are likely responsible for almost all of it.

    We saw the same thing in pre-production releases of the P45+. Anyone who has been involved in the release of such a product knows that there are trees of development, and the most recent branch is never available for testers outside of the company because they almost always have embarrassing errors. Internal development goes like this: fix/improve A and B and cause problem C. Then fix problem C and release to testers. While that is being tested problems D and E have already been fixed or improved but in doing so have caused problem F which make it unsuitable for public testing.

    All of that is by way of saying these problems are likely already fixed on a version in DK, but not in the stable version shipped to Jack and Guy which is probably a month or two out of date since they only stop to make "stable" versions every once in a while (it doesn't make sense to stop development and squash bugs while you're doing internal development).

    I'll put up 100 shares of GM that says all of these issue are gone in the shipping version. O wait, I'll put up $20 instead; that's likely to be more valuable by P65+ release time.

    As for the Mamiya glass, I expect the best lenses to hold well beyond the P65+. The 80mm, 120mm, 150mm and likely the new 45mm are very sharp. The 28mm will lack somewhat in the corners but that's the price of any lens that wide on an SLR. Older Mamiya glass is probably going to lack a bit but if you're springing for a P65+ then you're going to be a good candidate financially for the newer first rate glass and/or a technical camera with large format simple-lens (non retro focus) designed schneider/rodenstock glass. And we've always suggested the older Mamiya glass as a good way to expand your range of lenses at very little cost, not as a way to get your primary lens/lenses cheap.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Another way of thinking about this is that right now C1 processing of the P65+ is only as good as Adobe Camera Raw is likely to be when ACR adds support for the P65+. Phase One, with a vested interest in making the P65+ sing, as well as increased knowledge of the sensor/electronics, will be much better at squeezing out clean detail and dynamic range; it's just these finishing touches aren't in the public version of C1 4.5.2 and the back's firmware is not finalized either.

    This really should be viewed as a sneek peak.

    All that said... &$#$%ing amazing amounts of detail in those images.

    I simply cannot wait for this back to ship.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    This really should be viewed as a sneek peak.
    Precisely why we billed it as such... It is WAY too early to make definitive judgements on the new camera's performance. We are seeing added DR over the P45+ and P25+ however.

    More sample images coming...
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Processing now many images from this morning but as Jack says we are seeing a increase in DR and our lenses seem to be holding up very well to this sensor size.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Processing now many images from this morning but as Jack says we are seeing a increase in DR and our lenses seem to be holding up very well to this sensor size.
    How about that. Can't wait to see it.

    Obviously I'm biased as hell, but I'm astounded that they increased the resolution, shrunk the pixel size, and switched chip makers and the dynamic range even in the pre-production model went UP. That is some serious magic.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Doug look at this one shot with the 28mm Mamiya at 1 second F16 very early in the morning.I did WB off the post since being so early things look blue. Than a crop 900 px x900 px of the red outlined area. This is pretty sweet. The DR just roughly without getting through all the files appears to have about a half stop more DR than the P25 Plus and about a 1/3 on the P45 Plus. We did shoot something that will show this and will post after we process. I am just going to load some P65 shots now. Jack is working on a test between the three backs than I have some more shots with all three backs. Lot's of work going on here.

    Okay Mamiya 28mm with P65 1 sec and F16
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Another 28mm shot at 1 second

    Now these 28mm shots along with all of them WITHOUT doing my corner sharpness trick looking really good but the very far corners are a touch soft without adding the corner sharpness to it. My 28mm is staying in my bag is the bottom line. It still preforms like it does with my P25+ even with the added space of FF. But again I don't want to let C1 off the hook and need to make the corrections that are needed for the 28mm like it is for the 35mm in the software. Just FYI for those that do not know is I copied the 35mm corner sharpness profile when a 35mm frame is up and make a preset for it than when working on 28mm shots just apply the 35mm preset to my 28mm shots as my work around. That is NOT being done here and all i am doing is WB and exposure changes with some highlight control for the sky only because these are just before the sun is hitting the trains.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Here are a series of test images we took using the same body, lens (80mm) from the same position using each back with identical exposures. We then additionally moved the camera closer with the P65+ back to try and match the same framing as the P25+/45+ crop. As you can see, we didn't nail it exactly, but at least an attempt to give you a set of images to cross-compare. Finally, these were all processed identically in C1 with the exception of camera profile where we used the outdoor setting specific to each back and then WB, where we WB'd off the same cement pillar on a dock across the lake for each back. And of course, they were all a bit different in temp. Again, not perfect, and note we did NOT attempt to make each look identical, nor even "right," but rather just WB'd off the same point in an effort to keep everything as similarly processed as possible.

    Here are the images. First come the four "full-frame" shots, each reduced to 1/64th original size so you can visualize the different file sizes. The red outlines are for the 900x900 pixel crops that will follow:

    P25+:


    P45+


    P65+


    And finally, P65+ moved closer:
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Here are the crops from the above images. (Houston, we have some moire )

    P25+




    P45+


    Jack
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    And finally, from the P65+. Note the clock in the shadows in the first crops and compare them to the P25+ and P45+ above. Here is where the P65+ appears to carry a bit more DR:

    First position:




    Closer:


    Jack
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Here are a series of P65 with the 150mm 2.8 D lens all handheld
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Picture this, there I sat checking email and other stuff when I decided to visit here and read this thread. Immediate thoughts running through my mind were – “Holly Cow, Wow, Crap, Would Ya Look At That” and other comments when I stopped and looked around at all the people staring at me; it would seem that in the words of Marge Simpson to Homer I should have been using my inside voice!

    I’m thinking about the custom mask however I’m at a loss at how to disguise my height – open to suggestions

    don

    Wait, I know of at least one person who has one on order – maybe I can play with his…..
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Wow the detail. Still the 150mm
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Immediate thoughts running through my mind were – “Holly Cow, Wow, Crap, Would Ya Look At That” and other comments
    Don, too funny! But you'd be right at home here --- those very same comments have been flying around from all of us as we processed these files!

    ,
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  35. #35
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    And these are web jpegs, the tifs are cutting my eye's.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Guy, and Jack,
    Thanks for posting these. Guy, I was not as worried about the corners with the 28, and I do think keeping Phase on the hook to get those corrections is good. (Your 35mm "fix" does a pretty good job for now.) It only really matters on the engine shot done full side, not on the others, unless one need the gravel or something too close in focus in the corner. I was more interested in how things would look into the shadows and what the color roll-offs were looking like with the more muted tones. From what I can see in your shots, this looks pretty impressive.

    The bit of extra DR may at first seem small, but it looks like the shadows are carrying more, and that is great. This does show up in Jack's shots with the 80mm....to my eyes, despite Web JPEGs ;-) This is really nice to see.

    The 150 seems to be doing a stellar job also, and the color transitions in the clouds behind the train looks very nice.

    This is great looking stuff. Really appreciate your guys doing this and sharing with us. Also makes it agonizing to see the bar getting set pretty high on some things.

    LJ

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post
    Here are couple of shots of me documenting Guy and Jack testing out the new back from my iPhone.
    We were just getting started.
    I think Jack was hogging the camera in this shot.
    More to follow.
    L
    Hey Guy! You're a lot taller than I thought!

    I think there is a much larger height difference/ratio when I stand next to Don....



    ken

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    This was just a out take but thought it was worth posting with the Cambo RS1000 with a Digitar 47mm lens at F11. Watch the crops
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Wait, I know of at least one person who has one on order – maybe I can play with his…..
    You are going to be in so much trouble! P65+ and other MFDBs out to compare, several days of shooting/play, and conveniently---- Chris Lawery from Capture Integration will be present to take your P65+order personally....


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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Guy, what is that vertical line in the sky, in the middle?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Body parts for sale. What don't we really need I really did not want to like this and for pre-production back this thing is killer . The final shipping back with everything optimized is really going to be something else. What I found out today this back is going be sensor plus and here is the official description of that. Which will give you ISO 1600 with a quarter of resolution which will be 15 mpx and speed the back up to 2 frame per seconds. Obviously for event and PR work this will be perfect. This part really got me excited.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Guy, what is that vertical line in the sky, in the middle?
    It was actually a misfire with the shutter and back. We have to remember pre -production and such.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    What Guy is describing is Sensor + technology that Phase One developed and is patent pending. This allows for scalable pixel and file sizes the P65+ which can be configured for various resolutions allowing for faster capture times for images not requiring the full 60MP. So the P65+ will capture up to 1600 iso @ 15 megapixels.

    Time for some cocktails . It has been a busy day.

    L
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Here is a test about the DR difference between the backs. Keep a eye on the shadow detail. Shot with the 150mm lens at F11 at 1/20 second.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Hard to get everything dead on exact but does give you some clue what the P65 will come in at.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Some final comments as Lance takes the P65+ prototype back to it's temporary home in Miami...

    First off, Guy and I want to thank Lance Schad, Capture Integration, Steve Hendrix and PhaseOne USA for allowing us the opportunity to grab a trial run with this amazing new back -- thank you all!

    We showed several files from this back, along with crops to show the potential for detail and resolution. Guy and I want to remind you all this is still a prototype back and as with any prototype there were a few issues in using it and a few issues we noted with the files themselves. We hope to get an actual production back to review in the coming weeks, and when we do you can be sure we will be putting it through more normal paces with typical demands any pro would place on their gear. At that time, we will be noting full menu and use features, and of course performing proper testing in a controlled studio environment where we can note any obvious flaws in operation, color issues, sensor anomalies, UI glitches, firmware bugs, etc.

    For now, both Guy and I remain optimistic about the future potential of this back, and not surprisingly, we've already decided we'll both likely want one to call our own

    Hope you enjoyed our sneak peek!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Thanks all. I enjoyed seeing these comparisons. The detail and resolution from the P65+ looks to be amazing, though the "old dogs" of P45+ and P25+ are not disappointing here either.

    Great to see this at this early stage. Thanks again.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Exactly our thoughts too Dale. There is no shame in owning the lower res. backs . I still love my P25 Plus.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    Having just replaced/upgraded a few hard drives, formatted, wrote zeros, copied large folders, etc. I'm happy with the "low res. back" right now. Of course I'll forget about the hassle of storage in a few days and start pining for the P65+ again then.

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    Re: Phase One P65 Plus Sneak Peak

    how long will it be before the 65 starts to push the limits if the current MF lenses...and then what, will only the Schneider big guns do it, and what camera will they require?

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