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Thread: Return of the Warrior

  1. #101
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Handheld, focussed by eye, no corrections... no wonder there's a version branded ROKinon. It rocks.
    .
    All things considered, the lens does rock but I would have expected to see fairly pronounced barrel/complex wave distortion (which the lens has in spades) in that interior image you just posted, but didn't. It's obvious though in the pool image you just posted.

    On a seperate note, I'm about to send you a PM with a quick question regarding your 24-120 f4 VR.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 19th February 2013 at 07:31.

  2. #102
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Hi Tash,

    Thanks for a truly great thread, one of the most interesting for a long while.

    I have a coupe of questions, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box so bear with me if you can.

    Are you looking to get truly excellent image quality or the best image quality at your 24"x???? Yet have it come to you in an easy to use package....?

    I'm not having a go here, quite the opposite in fact, to me a camera should fit me, my way of working and offer the smallest obstruction between what I want to take and taking it.

    So on that score I applaud you and your reasoning.

    I also can see that an IQ180 has too much cash tied up in it, especially as you only need 24"x3??? And hate the ritual of what is LF digital.

    Before you sell it all, can you borrow a P45 and a couple of lenses...?

    P45's are stellar and offer you plenty of resolution, through LR so does a P25 but let's leave that to another time.

    The Mamiya 50mm shift is by far one of the best MF lenses out there and silly cheap right now, try ffordes.
    Because of the new 28mmLS the normal 28mm are abundant so worth a haggle.

    I'm suggesting this because a DF with the AF set up correctly (mine wasn't, is now, complete night and day) has some stellar lenses and a P45 would go a long way to giving you high quality prints and get you cash back off you OTT IQ180.

    However.......and there's always an however.....

    Would a correctly set up DF, 28mm phase lens and a P45 make you want to get out and shoot more often....?

    Less chance of missing the spontaneous shot compared to LF and printed on a 24" printer, no problems....?

    I found it worked for me many yrs ago (think film) 35mm was for snaps but 6x7 too clunky, I found my workhorse in the 645 system and still love it now, but I did shoot,shoot,shoot and shoot more so it became 2nd nature...

    I have a Nikon, love it but its a machine gun to me, if I had a D800E I'd abuse it, treat it like a snap happy chap and my results would be awful.

    In essence I think you have gone too big one one end and too convenient on the other, and missing the fact that the DF and wide range of lenses, married with the correct back, could put the spring back in your step.

    Steve
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  3. #103
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Steve, I do appreciate the thoughts and I hear you.

    The P45+ was my gateway drug into MFD having shot 4x5 film previously when I needed my high-res kicks. Nice sensor,shame about the ergonomics. Ditto the P65+ to which I upgraded en route to the IQ180. And I have had at some point most of the lenses you refer to. In fact I just sold the non-LS 28mm.

    And my sum total surmise from all of the above is that the IQ180 finally has the usability right, but I am not, on principle really, having been up-sold one time too many, going to get caught by the 'oh if only you had this Rodie or that Rodie rather than the Schneider you'd be....' type of an argument: the madness has to end somewhere.

    I genuinely think that, short of pumping a lot more good money after indifferent money and going the Rodie route, there is almost no one on earth that will be able to tell the difference between an IQ180 and a Nikon D800E with the best wides currently available at prints up to around the 36" range. In fact the D800 has better shadow characteristics and better ISO performance, plus it is the aspect ratio I like. And the same goes, naturally and logically, for a P45 or P45+. There's just nothing in it, resolution-wise, that will be noticed by anyone other than pinhead-dwelling angels, and they are not my customers!

    It's over. Really. MFD is over, for all but a vanishingly small number of specialist applications and very, very keen and rich amateurs or certain vanishingly small numbers of niche professionals. OK, I'll get shot. But if it's not over for you, and you and you and you, it is quite certainly over for me!
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  4. #104
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Tim,

    If I might interject a comment or two regarding Steve's comments. There is one point that hits home with me and in some ways (directly or indirectly), Steve alluded to it. With the D800/e, one currently has to work ever so hard and often times struggle to find optics to achieve what we are after using a 36MP 35mm format DSLR as it currently is. It's not only the wide angle end of things, but lord knows that is where the biggest struggles occu,r but also the inconsistancy in performance in optics in general. You more than most already know this.

    I'm not saying this doesn't take place in other systems such as MFD, but even when a well designed wide angle optic is found, often times due to the nature of high MP 35mm format sensor design and thus pushing most currently designed 35mm lenses to their optical limit, often results in less than satisfying image files.

    I just feel within the 40+ MP array of available MFD cameras and lenses....to achieve the same goals of across the frame optical performance as we expect with 35mm 36MP DSLR's, currently it's so much easier. I think this will change when the next round of extremely high performance 35mm format lenses are released, like those of Zeiss. We're already seeing the ante upped with many lens makers, but at a cost and I suspect $2000, $3,000, even $4,000+ 35mm format DSLR lenses are going to be entering the marketplace. Like they say, if one wants to play, one has to pay.

    Tim, there is a lot of what you expressed that resonates and each time we enter and leave a system, it's costly and time consuming, not to mention the infiltration of gray hairs (or loss of hair in some cases).

    No easy answer and I feel each time the 35mm DSLR's enter MF territory, the MF manufacturers will eventually (but slowly) respond in kind. I don't think we've seen the response to the 36MP DSLR yet but when we do by them, will it be cost effective to remain or switch back. The push back might not be in the form of high MP bodies and backs but new found capabilities that can't or arent implemented in the 35mm DSLR system as currently designed. These are tough questions to answer for some and not so tough for others. No easy answers, thats for sure.

    Dave (D&A)
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  5. #105
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Some very good points are being raised in this thread,but I might add that MF has one great trick and thats the ability to flash sync at very high shutter speeds.. and while the latest and greatest 35mm glass is becoming very good.. (e.g; canon 24-70mk2 or new high performance Zeiss)the price of these lenses is creeping up..

    But there is little doubt that MF needs to change to survive.. Lower price's and cmos or Foveon??

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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    WOW! I couldn't have said it better!
    For me too it's been: P45+ > P65+ > IQ180 > now I'm done taking this route. The Nikon D800E is not perfect but neither have been my Phase Ones.



    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Steve, I do appreciate the thoughts and I hear you.

    The P45+ was my gateway drug into MFD having shot 4x5 film previously when I needed my high-res kicks. Nice sensor,shame about the ergonomics. Ditto the P65+ to which I upgraded en route to the IQ180. And I have had at some point most of the lenses you refer to. In fact I just sold the non-LS 28mm.

    And my sum total surmise from all of the above is that the IQ180 finally has the usability right, but I am not, on principle really, having been up-sold one time too many, going to get caught by the 'oh if only you had this Rodie or that Rodie rather than the Schneider you'd be....' type of an argument: the madness has to end somewhere.

    I genuinely think that, short of pumping a lot more good money after indifferent money and going the Rodie route, there is almost no one on earth that will be able to tell the difference between an IQ180 and a Nikon D800E with the best wides currently available at prints up to around the 36" range. In fact the D800 has better shadow characteristics and better ISO performance, plus it is the aspect ratio I like. And the same goes, naturally and logically, for a P45 or P45+. There's just nothing in it, resolution-wise, that will be noticed by anyone other than pinhead-dwelling angels, and they are not my customers!

    It's over. Really. MFD is over, for all but a vanishingly small number of specialist applications and very, very keen and rich amateurs or certain vanishingly small numbers of niche professionals. OK, I'll get shot. But if it's not over for you, and you and you and you, it is quite certainly over for me!

  7. #107
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Tash,
    I do get what you are saying and I agree with you, I too sell fine art up to 24" wide and apart from the odd big order of 30"x40" I'm happy with a P25... more importantly so are my customers.

    It's like back in the day did we ever have a client that said...' you know.... if you shot that on a Leica 50mm 1.4 (£2400) instead of a Nikkor 50mm 1.4 (£300) I'd have bought the shot...

    So good for you Tash, for staying true to you demons and saying it how it is....

    I am tempted, so tempted to buy a D800e and a smaller back pack and just get on with it, however I 'only' have a 24mm 2.8 AFD, a 50mm 1.4 AFD and an 85mm 1.8 AFD.

    I suspect these lenses, coming from MFD will throw up rumblings of dissatisfaction me thinks.

    RVB's point is a fair one but I think MF, in many ways like Leica, has already established it's niche and will survive, as do Aston Martin, Ferrari, etc...

    Tash I like your rationelle though... even if you are not 100% happy with your wide lenses, despite trying out many... You know what your customers demand (even if you are searching for even higher results) and you are working to their already high bar.

    Keep up the good work and lets hope you find 'some old lens', in a box, with an F mount, that just sings when you shoot with it.

    Steve

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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    I like working with the tech cam. I like the slow workflow and having movements as an integral part of my image making. If quality in a print in practice is only very slightly better, undetectable to the majority of people is not so important to me. However, I need the pixel peep kick and it is important to me that quality *is* better; if we ever get to the day I can get better image quality out of a Nikon or Canon than I can afford in an MF system, MF will be over for me too.

    As it seems now, I think I have at least 2-3 more happy years with MFD :-). The next "threat" concerning my MF journey is a potential Canon large megapixel camera and and updates of the old 45/90 TS-E lenses, if it turns out "too good" I may drop out. Someone should make a 35mm high quality tilt-shift though (samyang to the rescue?)... it is a *big* gap in current DSLR lens lineups concerning my shooting style at least, it is my favourite FOV (47mm on my digital back).

    The future dream scenario for MFD for me is seeing a Schneider super digitar 35mm replacing the current 35 (less field curvature, while not as extreme retrofocus heavy and expensive as rodenstock 32mm), and a return of the 36x48mm format with a 50 meg 6um back which is surprisingly affordable from the leading manufacturer (i e phase one). That would increase my chance to stay in. The nightmare scenario is going more super-high-end, say 100+ megapixel 54x41, making weak-retrofocus Schneider lenses fully obsolete, requiring super-expensive Rodies on the wides and still have limited movements. That would be boring.
    Last edited by torger; 20th February 2013 at 03:04.

  9. #109
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    This thread is quite varied, and yet, i'm still not sure what to make of it...
    You have an IQ180 that won't sell, and you're not satisfied with any wide angles for the D800. Somewhere in all this great technology is compromise...
    You mentioned Burtynsky, his photograph of The Royal Alexandra Theatre is heaped with distortion, but yet a very compelling image indeed. Your website is fantastic and shows a great emerging talent, with an individualism that's a hallmark of your style. Perhaps the IQ180 and a Alpa STC/TC, mated with a Schneider or Rodenstock will produce those wide angles photographs. I too, spent much time chasing perfection, but at what point does it effect our art?

  10. #110
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Well I would still like to have my IQ160, Cambo and Rodie 28 back in my hands. For me the tech cam was my personal trophy of IQ after decades of wanting the best there is. The Nikon is a compromise on that goal but more important things in my life come first and I just had to give up that dream. And with that it also took something out of me photographic wise. Hard to explain here but it does bother me some.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  11. #111
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    It's over. Really. MFD is over, for all but a vanishingly small number of specialist applications and very, very keen and rich amateurs or certain vanishingly small numbers of niche professionals. OK, I'll get shot. But if it's not over for you, and you and you and you, it is quite certainly over for me!
    Okay Tim, I totally accept that it's over FOR YOU

    Reality is that the D800/E opened up a fine new ballroom in photography -- but it's a ballroom that is still does not match the grandness of current top-end MF. As pointed out, there are very few lenses up to the D800 sensor for corner to corner coverage at any focal length at and under light telephoto. Yet with Tech MF, we have several outstanding options from 23mm (effective 16mm) up through 120mm (effective 80mm) coverage. The latest SK and Rodie HR tech lenses offer the most impressive IQ even when viewed at the 100% pixel level in the corners from the very demanding 80MP Leaf or Phase backs. Yes, it takes incredible care to achieve the technical superiority they offer, but the fact remains it is available to those willing to put in the time. And spend the money...

    And it's the spending the money part that I think has most folks knickers wadded, including mine . I agree that the cost for obtaining entry to the MF ballroom is high relative to the added levels of technical perfection, but reality is it's been that way with technology forever. High-end stereo is a common parallel example where one pays 10 times the cost for a 10% gain in perfection. With MF digital, let's translate it to image size. You indicated that you felt the D800 and best lenses is very capable up to 36" and I would agree, but will take it a step further ---

    I will say that up to 24", it is difficult to tell the difference between well-captured and processed D800 and MF-Tech prints even when compared side-by-side. At 36", you will see differences when compared side-by-side; they will be visible to most serious photographers, but probably marginal enough to warrant questions regarding the value of the added expense to achieve them for many. However, once you cross into the 40" and larger arena, you are into a realm where MF Tech will reign supreme by most anybody's comparisons...

    So in summary, I would suggest that if you never print larger than 24", you're done; if you regularly print over 40", you're stuck with MF Tech; if you happen to occasionally print in the 32" to 50" range, you've got a very difficult decision to make.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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  12. #112
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    As an amateur which can deal with second hand gear you can get in "cheap" though. I've a 33 megapixel back and Schneider Digitar lenses and I can use a ground glass (don't need to pay for silly expensive helicon focus mounts). I like working with movements, the D800 don't have much tilt-shift lenses to speak of, and their flexibility is limited.

    My total MF system is ~$25K, about the same ballpark as a new D800 system with a set of quality lenses would cost.

    (A friend of mine has built a 22 megapixel second hand tech cam MF system for about ~$5K for the fun of it, but the Sinar camera is indeed a bit heavy to carry... )

    Sure A/B no shift/tilt with a 85mm/1.4 vs 120mm Digitar it would be impossible to differ the two systems in a print. But my shooting style is with the tech cam.

    I think it is a bit too heavy focus on the absolute print quality and too little about shooting style, how you want to make images. A tech cam is not "superior" in that way, it is just different, and I prefer that way.

    I think it is a bit sad that MF tech seems to be pushed into the ultra high end corner, IQ180s and retrofocus rodenstocks with a zillion glass elements. My dream system today for my landscape photography would be a 50 megapixel CFV-50 on a Linhof Techno a full set of Schneider Digitar lenses (I'm almost there ). A really well-balanced system, not overkill resolution (i e you can make good use of them at f/11 shots), sensor size well-balanced for movements, high image quality, and actually reasonably light to carry.

    I have a small hope that MF digital back costs will actually come down eventually to some less unreasonable level so people can choose MF because they like to work with the systems, rather than having to motivate the extreme difference in price with "vastly superior quality". I think tech cam amateur market is a neglected one which has great growth potential if backs were a bit cheaper, and continue to work with lower cost wides (like the f/11-optimized Schneider Digitars).
    Last edited by torger; 20th February 2013 at 08:05.
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  13. #113
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Great post as many in this thread. I essentially agree with you but I think that DMF backs have to come down in price a lot more than just a bit. A small decrease would only benefit those already in DMF use. It won't do much to make photo enthusiasts and perfectionists to make the jump.

    It would take a substantial price decrease to make this happen. I think something in the order to make MF bigger prices akin to the difference once we had between 35 and medium format. That was something around 3X in average. Unfortunately that means a MF camera with a 50 mp back should cost around $10k and that's not going to happen.

    In the old days, the IQ difference between the two leading systems was from 3X to 6X depending on the roll-film format. The price was 3X. In the world of digital the price increases 10 fold. The IQ difference is not even doubled. That's why, many believe that MF is dead. I sincerely hope this doesn't happen in my lifetime. I'm 60.

    Thanks all for this great thread.
    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post

    I have a small hope that MF digital back costs will actually come down eventually to some less unreasonable level so people can choose MF because they like to work with the systems, rather than having to motivate the extreme difference in price with "vastly superior quality". I think tech cam amateur market is a neglected one which has great growth potential if backs were a bit cheaper, and continue to work with lower cost wides (like the f/11-optimized Schneider Digitars).

  14. #114
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Digital MF is becoming better value on the used market. A used Hasselblad H3D-50 for example with moderate use can be purchased for far less than a new H5D-50 with essentially the same sensor. Similarly with other brands.

    Then there is the option of stitching to increase resolution or focus stacking on a standard MF camera to simulate tilt on a tech cam.

    Quentin
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  15. #115
    Member dogstarnyc's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Ffordes have one under 10k GBP inc a lens, that's a lot of a camera for that money.

    Going back to Tashleys point, with the exception of a few, the majority of us could buy a Nikon D600 or a 5D MKIi or III and a set of decent primes and print to 24x36 and let's be honest... Wow most of the people most of the time....

    But photography, like life just isn't like that, if it was we'd all be driving the cheapest car out there because it's a car it gets us from A to B without getting wet...

    As Guy hinted at above, sometimes other things are more important that owning the best camera.... My kids come first, as do Guy's and most people's... Taking boring assignments (to feed said kids) is a compromise as are a lot of things... It's all about finding your own comfort/enjoyment zone that is unique to you.

    Tash is pretty close because he has taken the time and expense and courage to go against perceived wisdom to find what works for him, hopefully he can get out there now and shoot loads, enjoy it and bring back new, exciting and even better work.

    I think I have said this before on a thread, I chose NOT to upgrade my back, instead I bought some LS lenses... It was the right thing to do... For me..

    Hope everyone gets out to shoot this weekend.

    Steve
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    I've been very patient reading this post. It's just that Tim is an outstanding photographer and very serious with what he's been doing. His honesty is greatly appreciated.
    Honestly, I think it is very simple.
    Get the camera system which you can afford and feel comfortable. I used a Nikon F3 and cheap 4x5 Arca for decades until I have money to buy IQ180 and Hasselblad H4D-40 and fell in love with them. Family comes first!
    "The One" will feel good in your hand and provide the image quality you like. The one that makes you feel happy every time it's in your hands. It doesn't matter, Nikon D600, D800, IQ 180. It likes your first love, you would feel it.
    If you don't like it, just sell it and move on with your life. Photography supposes to make you happy. Someone will always buy it.
    Some successful photographers such as Galen Rowell didn't always make "sharp image to the edge" or perfect pictures even his famous pieces. Some of his images are too saturated and over-manipulated but you can always feel "him" in his photos.
    I completely believe "too technical" can limit your artistic mind.
    Just a thought.
    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 24th February 2013 at 06:05.
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  17. #117
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Well, well, well. MFD dead again. That's a relief.

  18. #118
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I've been very patient reading this post. It's just that Tim is an outstanding photographer and very serious with what he's been doing. His honesty is greatly appreciated.
    Honestly, I think it is very simple.
    Get the camera system which you can afford and feel comfortable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover
    "The One" will feel good in your hand and provide the image quality you like. The one that makes you feel happy every time it's in your hands. It doesn't matter, Nikon D600, D800, IQ 180. It likes your first love, you would feel it.
    If you don't like it, just sell it and move on with your life. Photography supposes to make you happy.
    Again. Use what you enjoy using. If it annoys you at the intellectual, financial, operational or results level then there's no need to justify keeping or selling it. Just move on. It's why some folks stay with 8x10 or 4x5 or MF film - they're at ease with using it and the results so why change. If an 80mp digital system isn't working for you, change. Life's too short to be frustrated by gear that 'ought' to be ideal but that you don't like using. (Similarly, there's no need to try to convince Tim that he's making a mistake or should stick with MF digital! He knows what he wants and why.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover
    Some successful photographers such as Galen Rowell didn't always make "sharp image to the edge" or perfect pictures even his famous pieces. Some of his images are too saturated and over-manipulated but you can always feel "him" in his photos.
    I completely believe "too technical" can limit your artistic mind.
    Just a thought.
    Pramote
    Exactly. Promote, I'm with you on this one. If you've ever seen Galen's original images you'll see grain the size of marbles, relatively soft and technically imperfect photographs blown up beyond what most of us would think was reasonable for a 35mm slide but, and it's a huge but, they are absolutely visually stunning.

    Art doesn't need perfection.

    Of course that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with WANTING perfection.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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  19. #119
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Sometimes I shoot Hassy 503cw (film)
    Sometimes I shoot D800
    Sometimes I shoot DF/IQ180
    Sometimes I shoot IQ180 on tech cam

    All depends on what sort of results I want.
    I have pretty much given up the search for the perfect D800 lens, since If I want perfect or close to it I have other options.
    casual/travel/events: D800
    paying work architecture mostly: tech cam IQ180
    Stitched Landscape IQ180/Tech.
    I see no reason to declare MF dead just because for the first time there is a reasonably competent dslr.
    -bob
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  20. #120
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    ...(Similarly, there's no need to try to convince Tim that he's making a mistake or should stick with MF digital! He knows what he wants and why.)...
    I am just so happy he came to the MFD forum to tell us. It is so refreshing to hear about the D800. Did you hear about this camera?
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  21. #121
    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I am just so happy he came to the MFD forum to tell us. It is so refreshing to hear about the D800. Did you hear about this camera?
    LOL
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  22. #122
    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I've been very patient reading this post. It's just that Tim is an outstanding photographer and very serious with what he's been doing. His honesty is greatly appreciated.
    Honestly, I think it is very simple.
    Get the camera system which you can afford and feel comfortable. I used a Nikon F3 and cheap 4x5 Arca for decades until I have money to buy IQ180 and Hasselblad H4D-40 and fell in love with them. Family comes first!
    "The One" will feel good in your hand and provide the image quality you like. The one that makes you feel happy every time it's in your hands. It doesn't matter, Nikon D600, D800, IQ 180. It likes your first love, you would feel it.
    If you don't like it, just sell it and move on with your life. Photography supposes to make you happy. Someone will always buy it.
    Some successful photographers such as Galen Rowell didn't always make "sharp image to the edge" or perfect pictures even his famous pieces. Some of his images are too saturated and over-manipulated but you can always feel "him" in his photos.
    I completely believe "too technical" can limit your artistic mind.
    Just a thought.
    Pramote
    Wise words...
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  23. #123
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post

    Art doesn't need perfection.
    Kudos Graham! You have summed this entire business up perfectly in 4 words -- well 5 if picky ones don't allow the contraction

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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  24. #124
    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post



    Art doesn't need perfection.

    Of course that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with WANTING perfection.
    +1
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  25. #125
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    It's funny, I've gone pretty much the opposite direction of Tim. I haven't touched a DSLR in 2 years, but I have bought a Hassy 501cm and the other day I complemented my Mamiya AFD with an rz67 IID. I also plan on getting into large format in the near future. I couldn't be less interested in DSLRs, no matter how many megapixels you cram into them, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. So can we please bury this false conclusion that one (or many for that sake) person's choice means the "death" of everything else out there? Quite frankly it's ridiculous and it's boring many of us to tears.
    Last edited by Mammy645; 25th February 2013 at 00:24.

  26. #126
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    Mammy,

    I'm absolutely with you on this. In the last year I've shot almost exclusively with my Alpas & IQ / P25+ and fill in with my Fuji X-Pro1 / X-E1 and D600. However, I've had great joy shooting with my Fuji G617 and Rollei 6008i2. I'm also tempted to get another 5x4 or maybe a Techno for both analog and digital.

    My full spectrum D800 has been conspicuous by it's absence in my day to day photography. That's not because it's deficient in any way - absolutely NOT!! - but I just have no love for it. My buddy has been borrowing it for a couple of months to shoot astro images. I actually prefer my measly 24mp D600 for the travel and convenience shooting.

    At the end of the day, it's all good.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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  27. #127
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    I agree that part of the fun is to make pictures with an odd camera that's not everyone else is using. I only have a tech cam now, but I'm thinking about getting an old Hasselblad H1/H2 for my H-mount back just for fun. A friend of mine has several legacy cameras which he can use with his V-mount 22 megapixel back, it's fun and unique looks can be had.

    Anyway, the key issue is of course that new MF gear, mostly the backs, are so offensively expensive and the actual image quality difference is no longer huge. This is the main reason why these discussions exist. In the film days the quality difference was much larger and the price difference much smaller.

    As long as MFDB makers can motivate the huge difference in price towards professional photographers they have their market and all is cool. If that is possible a few years from now I'm not sure, and if the market shrinks further then we might have a situation when medium format backs will be as common as scanning backs are today, i e speciality equipment for reproduction photography, industrial or aerial photography for mapmaking.

    If the pressure could lead to a shift towards more affordable digital backs I'd be happy, but it seems more likely to me that we'll rather see further price increases due to higher end products (to keep distance from smaller formats) and possibly smaller market. I think the DSLR-like bodies can take on a different direction (Leica S and Pentax), but I'm personally more interested in digital backs as this is needed for tech cams and this is what makes MF fun, being able to use it on different camera systems.

    I as the amateur photographer I am will hang in there as long as I can motivate the cost.

  28. #128
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    I want to be really clear... This thread was never started or responded to with the belief that perfection is a sufficient condition for making good art, not is it even usually even a necessary condition. But sometimes it is necessary - depending on what the vision is for the finished work.

    I really do acknowledge the danger of questing for perfection being something that can get in the way of making art. But actually I don't think I do that - because the great majority of my work is not concerned with perfection at all. Not that a great deal of my work qualifies as art

    In fact most of my own most favourite work, regardless of what sells, is truly madly deeply imperfect... such as this one, shot on an MP and processed by me in a cupboard under the stairs and scanned on a useless home scanner...


  29. #129
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Return of the Warrior

    I care little for cameras and processes but a lot about subjects and images.

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