The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Return of the Warrior

D&A

Well-known member
Handheld, focussed by eye, no corrections... no wonder there's a version branded ROKinon. It rocks.
.
All things considered, the lens does rock but I would have expected to see fairly pronounced barrel/complex wave distortion (which the lens has in spades) in that interior image you just posted, but didn't. It's obvious though in the pool image you just posted.

On a seperate note, I'm about to send you a PM with a quick question regarding your 24-120 f4 VR.

Dave (D&A)
 
Last edited:

dogstarnyc

Member
Hi Tash,

Thanks for a truly great thread, one of the most interesting for a long while.

I have a coupe of questions, I'm not the sharpest tool in the box so bear with me if you can.

Are you looking to get truly excellent image quality or the best image quality at your 24"x???? Yet have it come to you in an easy to use package....?

I'm not having a go here, quite the opposite in fact, to me a camera should fit me, my way of working and offer the smallest obstruction between what I want to take and taking it.

So on that score I applaud you and your reasoning.

I also can see that an IQ180 has too much cash tied up in it, especially as you only need 24"x3??? And hate the ritual of what is LF digital.

Before you sell it all, can you borrow a P45 and a couple of lenses...?

P45's are stellar and offer you plenty of resolution, through LR so does a P25 but let's leave that to another time.

The Mamiya 50mm shift is by far one of the best MF lenses out there and silly cheap right now, try ffordes.
Because of the new 28mmLS the normal 28mm are abundant so worth a haggle.

I'm suggesting this because a DF with the AF set up correctly (mine wasn't, is now, complete night and day) has some stellar lenses and a P45 would go a long way to giving you high quality prints and get you cash back off you OTT IQ180.

However.......and there's always an however.....

Would a correctly set up DF, 28mm phase lens and a P45 make you want to get out and shoot more often....?

Less chance of missing the spontaneous shot compared to LF and printed on a 24" printer, no problems....?

I found it worked for me many yrs ago (think film) 35mm was for snaps but 6x7 too clunky, I found my workhorse in the 645 system and still love it now, but I did shoot,shoot,shoot and shoot more so it became 2nd nature...

I have a Nikon, love it but its a machine gun to me, if I had a D800E I'd abuse it, treat it like a snap happy chap and my results would be awful.

In essence I think you have gone too big one one end and too convenient on the other, and missing the fact that the DF and wide range of lenses, married with the correct back, could put the spring back in your step.

Steve
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Steve, I do appreciate the thoughts and I hear you.

The P45+ was my gateway drug into MFD having shot 4x5 film previously when I needed my high-res kicks. Nice sensor,shame about the ergonomics. Ditto the P65+ to which I upgraded en route to the IQ180. And I have had at some point most of the lenses you refer to. In fact I just sold the non-LS 28mm.

And my sum total surmise from all of the above is that the IQ180 finally has the usability right, but I am not, on principle really, having been up-sold one time too many, going to get caught by the 'oh if only you had this Rodie or that Rodie rather than the Schneider you'd be....' type of an argument: the madness has to end somewhere.

I genuinely think that, short of pumping a lot more good money after indifferent money and going the Rodie route, there is almost no one on earth that will be able to tell the difference between an IQ180 and a Nikon D800E with the best wides currently available at prints up to around the 36" range. In fact the D800 has better shadow characteristics and better ISO performance, plus it is the aspect ratio I like. And the same goes, naturally and logically, for a P45 or P45+. There's just nothing in it, resolution-wise, that will be noticed by anyone other than pinhead-dwelling angels, and they are not my customers!

It's over. Really. MFD is over, for all but a vanishingly small number of specialist applications and very, very keen and rich amateurs or certain vanishingly small numbers of niche professionals. OK, I'll get shot. But if it's not over for you, and you and you and you, it is quite certainly over for me!
 

D&A

Well-known member
Tim,

If I might interject a comment or two regarding Steve's comments. There is one point that hits home with me and in some ways (directly or indirectly), Steve alluded to it. With the D800/e, one currently has to work ever so hard and often times struggle to find optics to achieve what we are after using a 36MP 35mm format DSLR as it currently is. It's not only the wide angle end of things, but lord knows that is where the biggest struggles occu,r but also the inconsistancy in performance in optics in general. You more than most already know this.

I'm not saying this doesn't take place in other systems such as MFD, but even when a well designed wide angle optic is found, often times due to the nature of high MP 35mm format sensor design and thus pushing most currently designed 35mm lenses to their optical limit, often results in less than satisfying image files.

I just feel within the 40+ MP array of available MFD cameras and lenses....to achieve the same goals of across the frame optical performance as we expect with 35mm 36MP DSLR's, currently it's so much easier. I think this will change when the next round of extremely high performance 35mm format lenses are released, like those of Zeiss. We're already seeing the ante upped with many lens makers, but at a cost and I suspect $2000, $3,000, even $4,000+ 35mm format DSLR lenses are going to be entering the marketplace. Like they say, if one wants to play, one has to pay.

Tim, there is a lot of what you expressed that resonates and each time we enter and leave a system, it's costly and time consuming, not to mention the infiltration of gray hairs (or loss of hair in some cases).

No easy answer and I feel each time the 35mm DSLR's enter MF territory, the MF manufacturers will eventually (but slowly) respond in kind. I don't think we've seen the response to the 36MP DSLR yet but when we do by them, will it be cost effective to remain or switch back. The push back might not be in the form of high MP bodies and backs but new found capabilities that can't or arent implemented in the 35mm DSLR system as currently designed. These are tough questions to answer for some and not so tough for others. No easy answers, thats for sure.

Dave (D&A)
 

RVB

Member
Some very good points are being raised in this thread,but I might add that MF has one great trick and thats the ability to flash sync at very high shutter speeds.. and while the latest and greatest 35mm glass is becoming very good.. (e.g; canon 24-70mk2 or new high performance Zeiss)the price of these lenses is creeping up..

But there is little doubt that MF needs to change to survive.. Lower price's and cmos or Foveon??
 

fotoflood

New member
WOW! I couldn't have said it better!
For me too it's been: P45+ > P65+ > IQ180 > now I'm done taking this route. The Nikon D800E is not perfect but neither have been my Phase Ones.



Steve, I do appreciate the thoughts and I hear you.

The P45+ was my gateway drug into MFD having shot 4x5 film previously when I needed my high-res kicks. Nice sensor,shame about the ergonomics. Ditto the P65+ to which I upgraded en route to the IQ180. And I have had at some point most of the lenses you refer to. In fact I just sold the non-LS 28mm.

And my sum total surmise from all of the above is that the IQ180 finally has the usability right, but I am not, on principle really, having been up-sold one time too many, going to get caught by the 'oh if only you had this Rodie or that Rodie rather than the Schneider you'd be....' type of an argument: the madness has to end somewhere.

I genuinely think that, short of pumping a lot more good money after indifferent money and going the Rodie route, there is almost no one on earth that will be able to tell the difference between an IQ180 and a Nikon D800E with the best wides currently available at prints up to around the 36" range. In fact the D800 has better shadow characteristics and better ISO performance, plus it is the aspect ratio I like. And the same goes, naturally and logically, for a P45 or P45+. There's just nothing in it, resolution-wise, that will be noticed by anyone other than pinhead-dwelling angels, and they are not my customers!

It's over. Really. MFD is over, for all but a vanishingly small number of specialist applications and very, very keen and rich amateurs or certain vanishingly small numbers of niche professionals. OK, I'll get shot. But if it's not over for you, and you and you and you, it is quite certainly over for me!
 

dogstarnyc

Member
Tash,
I do get what you are saying and I agree with you, I too sell fine art up to 24" wide and apart from the odd big order of 30"x40" I'm happy with a P25... more importantly so are my customers.

It's like back in the day did we ever have a client that said...' you know.... if you shot that on a Leica 50mm 1.4 (£2400) instead of a Nikkor 50mm 1.4 (£300) I'd have bought the shot...

So good for you Tash, for staying true to you demons and saying it how it is....

I am tempted, so tempted to buy a D800e and a smaller back pack and just get on with it, however I 'only' have a 24mm 2.8 AFD, a 50mm 1.4 AFD and an 85mm 1.8 AFD.

I suspect these lenses, coming from MFD will throw up rumblings of dissatisfaction me thinks.

RVB's point is a fair one but I think MF, in many ways like Leica, has already established it's niche and will survive, as do Aston Martin, Ferrari, etc...

Tash I like your rationelle though... even if you are not 100% happy with your wide lenses, despite trying out many... You know what your customers demand (even if you are searching for even higher results) and you are working to their already high bar.

Keep up the good work and lets hope you find 'some old lens', in a box, with an F mount, that just sings when you shoot with it.

Steve
 

torger

Active member
I like working with the tech cam. I like the slow workflow and having movements as an integral part of my image making. If quality in a print in practice is only very slightly better, undetectable to the majority of people is not so important to me. However, I need the pixel peep kick and it is important to me that quality *is* better; if we ever get to the day I can get better image quality out of a Nikon or Canon than I can afford in an MF system, MF will be over for me too.

As it seems now, I think I have at least 2-3 more happy years with MFD :). The next "threat" concerning my MF journey is a potential Canon large megapixel camera and and updates of the old 45/90 TS-E lenses, if it turns out "too good" I may drop out. Someone should make a 35mm high quality tilt-shift though (samyang to the rescue?)... it is a *big* gap in current DSLR lens lineups concerning my shooting style at least, it is my favourite FOV (47mm on my digital back).

The future dream scenario for MFD for me is seeing a Schneider super digitar 35mm replacing the current 35 (less field curvature, while not as extreme retrofocus heavy and expensive as rodenstock 32mm), and a return of the 36x48mm format with a 50 meg 6um back which is surprisingly affordable from the leading manufacturer (i e phase one). That would increase my chance to stay in. The nightmare scenario is going more super-high-end, say 100+ megapixel 54x41, making weak-retrofocus Schneider lenses fully obsolete, requiring super-expensive Rodies on the wides and still have limited movements. That would be boring.
 
Last edited:

johnnygoesdigital

New member
This thread is quite varied, and yet, i'm still not sure what to make of it...
You have an IQ180 that won't sell, and you're not satisfied with any wide angles for the D800. Somewhere in all this great technology is compromise...
You mentioned Burtynsky, his photograph of The Royal Alexandra Theatre is heaped with distortion, but yet a very compelling image indeed. Your website is fantastic and shows a great emerging talent, with an individualism that's a hallmark of your style. Perhaps the IQ180 and a Alpa STC/TC, mated with a Schneider or Rodenstock will produce those wide angles photographs. I too, spent much time chasing perfection, but at what point does it effect our art?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I would still like to have my IQ160, Cambo and Rodie 28 back in my hands. For me the tech cam was my personal trophy of IQ after decades of wanting the best there is. The Nikon is a compromise on that goal but more important things in my life come first and I just had to give up that dream. And with that it also took something out of me photographic wise. Hard to explain here but it does bother me some.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
It's over. Really. MFD is over, for all but a vanishingly small number of specialist applications and very, very keen and rich amateurs or certain vanishingly small numbers of niche professionals. OK, I'll get shot. But if it's not over for you, and you and you and you, it is quite certainly over for me!
Okay Tim, I totally accept that it's over FOR YOU :)

Reality is that the D800/E opened up a fine new ballroom in photography -- but it's a ballroom that is still does not match the grandness of current top-end MF. As pointed out, there are very few lenses up to the D800 sensor for corner to corner coverage at any focal length at and under light telephoto. Yet with Tech MF, we have several outstanding options from 23mm (effective 16mm) up through 120mm (effective 80mm) coverage. The latest SK and Rodie HR tech lenses offer the most impressive IQ even when viewed at the 100% pixel level in the corners from the very demanding 80MP Leaf or Phase backs. Yes, it takes incredible care to achieve the technical superiority they offer, but the fact remains it is available to those willing to put in the time. And spend the money...

And it's the spending the money part that I think has most folks knickers wadded, including mine ;). I agree that the cost for obtaining entry to the MF ballroom is high relative to the added levels of technical perfection, but reality is it's been that way with technology forever. High-end stereo is a common parallel example where one pays 10 times the cost for a 10% gain in perfection. With MF digital, let's translate it to image size. You indicated that you felt the D800 and best lenses is very capable up to 36" and I would agree, but will take it a step further ---

I will say that up to 24", it is difficult to tell the difference between well-captured and processed D800 and MF-Tech prints even when compared side-by-side. At 36", you will see differences when compared side-by-side; they will be visible to most serious photographers, but probably marginal enough to warrant questions regarding the value of the added expense to achieve them for many. However, once you cross into the 40" and larger arena, you are into a realm where MF Tech will reign supreme by most anybody's comparisons...

So in summary, I would suggest that if you never print larger than 24", you're done; if you regularly print over 40", you're stuck with MF Tech; if you happen to occasionally print in the 32" to 50" range, you've got a very difficult decision to make.

Cheers,
 

torger

Active member
As an amateur which can deal with second hand gear you can get in "cheap" though. I've a 33 megapixel back and Schneider Digitar lenses and I can use a ground glass (don't need to pay for silly expensive helicon focus mounts). I like working with movements, the D800 don't have much tilt-shift lenses to speak of, and their flexibility is limited.

My total MF system is ~$25K, about the same ballpark as a new D800 system with a set of quality lenses would cost.

(A friend of mine has built a 22 megapixel second hand tech cam MF system for about ~$5K for the fun of it, but the Sinar camera is indeed a bit heavy to carry... :) )

Sure A/B no shift/tilt with a 85mm/1.4 vs 120mm Digitar it would be impossible to differ the two systems in a print. But my shooting style is with the tech cam.

I think it is a bit too heavy focus on the absolute print quality and too little about shooting style, how you want to make images. A tech cam is not "superior" in that way, it is just different, and I prefer that way.

I think it is a bit sad that MF tech seems to be pushed into the ultra high end corner, IQ180s and retrofocus rodenstocks with a zillion glass elements. My dream system today for my landscape photography would be a 50 megapixel CFV-50 on a Linhof Techno a full set of Schneider Digitar lenses (I'm almost there ;) ). A really well-balanced system, not overkill resolution (i e you can make good use of them at f/11 shots), sensor size well-balanced for movements, high image quality, and actually reasonably light to carry.

I have a small hope that MF digital back costs will actually come down eventually to some less unreasonable level so people can choose MF because they like to work with the systems, rather than having to motivate the extreme difference in price with "vastly superior quality". I think tech cam amateur market is a neglected one which has great growth potential if backs were a bit cheaper, and continue to work with lower cost wides (like the f/11-optimized Schneider Digitars).
 
Last edited:

Uaiomex

Member
Great post as many in this thread. I essentially agree with you but I think that DMF backs have to come down in price a lot more than just a bit. A small decrease would only benefit those already in DMF use. It won't do much to make photo enthusiasts and perfectionists to make the jump.

It would take a substantial price decrease to make this happen. I think something in the order to make MF bigger prices akin to the difference once we had between 35 and medium format. That was something around 3X in average. Unfortunately that means a MF camera with a 50 mp back should cost around $10k and that's not going to happen.

In the old days, the IQ difference between the two leading systems was from 3X to 6X depending on the roll-film format. The price was 3X. In the world of digital the price increases 10 fold. The IQ difference is not even doubled. That's why, many believe that MF is dead. I sincerely hope this doesn't happen in my lifetime. I'm 60.

Thanks all for this great thread.
Eduardo


I have a small hope that MF digital back costs will actually come down eventually to some less unreasonable level so people can choose MF because they like to work with the systems, rather than having to motivate the extreme difference in price with "vastly superior quality". I think tech cam amateur market is a neglected one which has great growth potential if backs were a bit cheaper, and continue to work with lower cost wides (like the f/11-optimized Schneider Digitars).
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
Digital MF is becoming better value on the used market. A used Hasselblad H3D-50 for example with moderate use can be purchased for far less than a new H5D-50 with essentially the same sensor. Similarly with other brands.

Then there is the option of stitching to increase resolution or focus stacking on a standard MF camera to simulate tilt on a tech cam.

Quentin
 

dogstarnyc

Member
Ffordes have one under 10k GBP inc a lens, that's a lot of a camera for that money.

Going back to Tashleys point, with the exception of a few, the majority of us could buy a Nikon D600 or a 5D MKIi or III and a set of decent primes and print to 24x36 and let's be honest... Wow most of the people most of the time....

But photography, like life just isn't like that, if it was we'd all be driving the cheapest car out there because it's a car it gets us from A to B without getting wet...

As Guy hinted at above, sometimes other things are more important that owning the best camera.... My kids come first, as do Guy's and most people's... Taking boring assignments (to feed said kids) is a compromise as are a lot of things... It's all about finding your own comfort/enjoyment zone that is unique to you.

Tash is pretty close because he has taken the time and expense and courage to go against perceived wisdom to find what works for him, hopefully he can get out there now and shoot loads, enjoy it and bring back new, exciting and even better work.

I think I have said this before on a thread, I chose NOT to upgrade my back, instead I bought some LS lenses... It was the right thing to do... For me..

Hope everyone gets out to shoot this weekend.

Steve
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
I've been very patient reading this post. It's just that Tim is an outstanding photographer and very serious with what he's been doing. His honesty is greatly appreciated.
Honestly, I think it is very simple.
Get the camera system which you can afford and feel comfortable. I used a Nikon F3 and cheap 4x5 Arca for decades until I have money to buy IQ180 and Hasselblad H4D-40 and fell in love with them. Family comes first!
"The One" will feel good in your hand and provide the image quality you like. The one that makes you feel happy every time it's in your hands. It doesn't matter, Nikon D600, D800, IQ 180. It likes your first love, you would feel it.
If you don't like it, just sell it and move on with your life. Photography supposes to make you happy. Someone will always buy it.
Some successful photographers such as Galen Rowell didn't always make "sharp image to the edge" or perfect pictures even his famous pieces. Some of his images are too saturated and over-manipulated but you can always feel "him" in his photos.
I completely believe "too technical" can limit your artistic mind.
Just a thought.
Pramote
 
Last edited:

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I've been very patient reading this post. It's just that Tim is an outstanding photographer and very serious with what he's been doing. His honesty is greatly appreciated.
Honestly, I think it is very simple.
Get the camera system which you can afford and feel comfortable.
:thumbs:

Landscapelover said:
"The One" will feel good in your hand and provide the image quality you like. The one that makes you feel happy every time it's in your hands. It doesn't matter, Nikon D600, D800, IQ 180. It likes your first love, you would feel it.
If you don't like it, just sell it and move on with your life. Photography supposes to make you happy.
:thumbs: Again. Use what you enjoy using. If it annoys you at the intellectual, financial, operational or results level then there's no need to justify keeping or selling it. Just move on. It's why some folks stay with 8x10 or 4x5 or MF film - they're at ease with using it and the results so why change. If an 80mp digital system isn't working for you, change. Life's too short to be frustrated by gear that 'ought' to be ideal but that you don't like using. (Similarly, there's no need to try to convince Tim that he's making a mistake or should stick with MF digital! He knows what he wants and why.) :poke:

Landscapelover said:
Some successful photographers such as Galen Rowell didn't always make "sharp image to the edge" or perfect pictures even his famous pieces. Some of his images are too saturated and over-manipulated but you can always feel "him" in his photos.
I completely believe "too technical" can limit your artistic mind.
Just a thought.
Pramote
Exactly. Promote, I'm with you on this one. If you've ever seen Galen's original images you'll see grain the size of marbles, relatively soft and technically imperfect photographs blown up beyond what most of us would think was reasonable for a 35mm slide but, and it's a huge but, they are absolutely visually stunning.

Art doesn't need perfection.

Of course that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with WANTING perfection. :salute:
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Sometimes I shoot Hassy 503cw (film)
Sometimes I shoot D800
Sometimes I shoot DF/IQ180
Sometimes I shoot IQ180 on tech cam

All depends on what sort of results I want.
I have pretty much given up the search for the perfect D800 lens, since If I want perfect or close to it I have other options.
casual/travel/events: D800
paying work architecture mostly: tech cam IQ180
Stitched Landscape IQ180/Tech.
I see no reason to declare MF dead just because for the first time there is a reasonably competent dslr.
-bob
 

Shashin

Well-known member
...(Similarly, there's no need to try to convince Tim that he's making a mistake or should stick with MF digital! He knows what he wants and why.)...
I am just so happy he came to the MFD forum to tell us. It is so refreshing to hear about the D800. Did you hear about this camera?
 
Top