MF... will it survive?

[Theodoros Fotometria]

10x8, 7x5, 5x4 ...all dead! The light sensitive area is shrinking all the time... MF sales continue to drop as higher resolution and better IQ FFs become cheaper all the time, will the makers be able to support low demand lenses which are necessary to justify a camera body production? Will they be able to further lower the costs to achieve more appeal? ...or is it the end of the road for MF?

 

[Shashin]

????

You can still buy 4x5 and 8x10 cameras and film.

Do you have sales figures showing the MFD sales are down?

The price for FF cameras have been fairly stable over the last few years.

These type of threads come up from time to time at GetDPI, but don't get much traction, simply because the premise is usually false. You should join Luminance Landscape, it is a better place for this type of speculation.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

A good big'un is better than a good small one!

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

Among all the talk of resolution, DR, colour accuracy etc etc, I have to say one of the prime reasons I like MF is the ability to crop extensively. I can pull out the centre quarter of the frame and still have a 20 mp image that will give great 24 by 30 inch prints.

I don't have a Nikon D800 - but can it do that?

Bill

 

[EH21]

10x8, 7x5, 5x4 ...all dead!

Not true. I just bought a 5x7 Technika and really enjoy using it. I thought it would be easy to find lenses and lens boards for this but they are being bid up quite quickly on the auctions - same with the expired 5x7 film so clearly people are using these formats.

I also shoot a lot of MF film and use MF DB too. I think for as much as people go to their iPhone or cell phone cameras for reg, stuff the excitement of doing photography brings more people back into these larger formats.

It may be that less of the larger format and MF is being done by pros, but I don't think less is being done.

 

[Theodoros Fotometria]

Among all the talk of resolution, DR, colour accuracy etc etc, I have to say one of the prime reasons I like MF is the ability to crop extensively. I can pull out the centre quarter of the frame and still have a 20 mp image that will give great 24 by 30 inch prints.

I don't have a Nikon D800 - but can it do that?

Bill

So Bill... you are among those that will abandon MF for FF when res is enough to leave you a 20mp crop of the center... yes? :ROTFL:

 

[Theodoros Fotometria]

Not true. I just bought a 5x7 Technika and really enjoy using it. I thought it would be easy to find lenses and lens boards for this but they are being bid up quite quickly on the auctions - same with the expired 5x7 film so clearly people are using these formats.

I also shoot a lot of MF film and use MF DB too. I think for as much as people go to their iPhone or cell phone cameras for reg, stuff the excitement of doing photography brings more people back into these larger formats.

It may be that less of the larger format and MF is being done by pros, but I don't think less is being done.

Actually "dead" means that it's not in production.... or that there is no demand to support a production... The only view cameras that are still in production are of 2x3 image area... in the extremely rare case that a customer wants larger image area, there is usually a NOS or left on the shelve replacement part at a good price...

 

[stephengilbert]

Another one of these threads?

Digital MF has been dead for months now, ever since the D800, or the Nokia cell phone. I forget which. I know I threw mine away as soon as I heard the news.

 

[Landscapelover]

10x8, 7x5, 5x4 ...all dead! The light sensitive area is shrinking all the time... MF sales continue to drop as higher resolution and better IQ FFs become cheaper all the time, will the makers be able to support low demand lenses which are necessary to justify a camera body production? Will they be able to further lower the costs to achieve more appeal? ...or is it the end of the road for MF?

Am I in a right forum?
Is this a stock market forum?

Pramote

 

[Shashin]

Where are you getting your production information?

Currently for sale new at B&H:

Large Format Cameras| B&H Photo Video

 

[Theodoros Fotometria]

Where are you getting your production information?

Currently for sale new at B&H:

Large Format Cameras| B&H Photo Video

Strange... they are all in stock at 1 quantity of each!!!! :ROTFL: IMO the only two things that may keep MF alive is 1.Multishot.... 2.View & Technical camera compatibility (of up to 2x3 size)... However, if "true color" single shot sensors will be developed and lenses with movements will become cheaper for 35mm size cameras, I don't think that MF will make it! All current view camera makers, offer DSLR compatibility and the MFDB owners have become slow in replacing their older backs... D800E did convince many studio shooters not to advance to MF... what will happen when in 2-3 years D800E will have a better replacement? I own an Imacon 528c and make painting reproduction with it, ....what should I advance to? ...there is nothing around that would provide me a worthwhile replacement! ....And the ultra hi-res MF backs, the only thing that they provide than the intro models is more pixels.... Hardly enough to justify the investment IMO... :talk028:

 

[algrove]

Well, I'll tell you by the crowds at the Hasselblad Booth at Photokina and the intense interest in their products there, I would say you, OP, will be dead before MF is dead.

 

[Shashin]

Yeah, yeah. MFD is dead, film is dead, and Shakespeare is dead. Same old story.

 

[dougpeterson]

These conversations get boring. It has occurred literally *every* time a new dSLR is released.

In actuality revenue and unit sales for Team Phase One have been increasing year-over-year for several years in a row.

The reports of the death of medium format are not just greatly exaggerated; they are dead wrong.

A select number of other companies struggled or failed during the global economic crises, but I don't think you should confuse that with general industry demise. Otherwise we'd assume the era of cars is over because GM struggled for a year or two.

 

[Theodoros Fotometria]

What I don't hear is real reasoning... if people think it will survive, they should backup their opinion answering to "why it will survive" or to "what has to be done" for MF to be more appealing.... I did that before when I said, that MF has to emphasize at areas that FF can't be competitive (multishot, view and Tech camera compatibility) and even enhance in these areas, or even provide new functions that will differentiate it further (user ability to remove Bayern pattern?, user interchangeable sensors?). IMO, by building bigger DSLRs like Leica or Pentax does, or by closing the system like Hass did (they even stopped the CFs !) they can only commit suicide! MF was always about modularity and IQ... If they turn the cameras into "just bigger DSLRs" as they currently do, the IQ/value balance of FF cameras will more and more balance against MF... at the end you'll have MF users saying "what the hey!" with some new FF DSLR which will provide them with IQ as good as they could achieve only yesterday with MF... and thinking that "they were working well yesterday with lesser equipment", there is no need for the TOP anymore.... :deadhorse:
So... instead of having people telling me (or to themselves) how good their IQ 180, or P65+ or H5-50 is :clap: or how "bad" a D800 is, isn't it better if we start discussing/suggesting what the makers should do to ensure survival? :chug:

 

[Ed Hurst]

I see where you are coming from Theodoros. The trouble is, I am not sure you will find many people here terribly interested in having that discussion. This is purely a personal impression, but the sense I have is that people here know what value they get from using their MFDBs, feel that the images thus produced speak for themselves, and that speculating in such a way just doesn't add a great deal to their priorities. Please take this in the spirit in which it is intended - i.e. sharing a view on why you may not get the debate you are seeking...

Best wishes,

Ed

 

[malmac]

Theo

You have certainly rattled our cage with your confrontational stick.

I suspect that your real intention was to generate some positive vision for the next 10 years of MF that you may feel is missing.

After about 90 years of building air cooled boxer motorcycle engines - BMW has just released a partially liquid cooled boxer engine. Things change and so will MF - as consumers we can choose to buy or not buy but really that is probably the limit of our influence.

As a photographer I know the equipment I have is still much better at recording the scene than I am at pointing it in the right direction at the right time.

"and so to bed."


mal

 

[Theodoros Fotometria]

I see where you are coming from Theodoros. The trouble is, I am not sure you will find many people here terribly interested in having that discussion. This is purely a personal impression, but the sense I have is that people here know what value they get from using their MFDBs, feel that the images thus produced speak for themselves, and that speculating in such a way just doesn't add a great deal to their priorities. Please take this in the spirit in which it is intended - i.e. sharing a view on why you may not get the debate you are seeking...

Best wishes,

Ed

The thing is Ed, that most disasters in history (IMO, if MF dies it will be a disaster to photography as an art), happens when a media loses its traditional values, what happens here currently, is that makers (in a straggle to survive) take the wrong information on customer needs and are attacking the media's own values which is the same as committing suicide... I wish that people come back to their senses and start demanding MF modularity back... It would force Hass and P1 to sit around a table and work on MF user's needs rather than trying to serve customers that seek only sharper DSLRs... I own an 11 lens (4 via adarters) Contax 645 system and a (Contax back fit) Fuji GX680 5 lens system, on which I share my Imacon 528c back... The whole system costed me about half of what one spends for a modern high resolution back with its dedicated camera an standard lens... :toocool: ....and it can do 10 times better what it does, while at the same time it does 99% as well of what they do! ...All that due to its modularity and special functions! :clap: I don't consider Pentax 645 or Leica S as being MF... IMO, a larger image area isn't enough to make something MF! ....MF is all about serving its traditional values, ...if this will vanish, MF will vanish with it! I agree with you that there are many that never thought (or are incapable) of a proper discussion... (at least not in forums anyway), but forums is where MF makers look for much of their marketing info and as such, it's worth trying... let's hope then that you prove wrong and that this discussion will go on for months having people suggesting HDMI outputs for large screen quality LV previews and huge data storage, bringing modularity back and thus allowing S/H market to grow back (look at the prices of all those Bronicas, RBs, RZs, C645 etc...), the makers have to understand that by not supporting a basic very cheap market that could provide a wide spread base for the media, they kill the higher market up... Do you know that most of the MFDBs they take as part exchange they destroy...? :banghead: We better start suggesting and discussing then, ...otherwise we also take our own eyes off....:talk028:

 

[KeithL]

MF...will it survive?

Much depends on the MF companies themselves. They'll need to move forward at a pace that is perhaps greater than have in recent years.

 

[Theodoros Fotometria]

Theo

You have certainly rattled our cage with your confrontational stick.

I suspect that your real intention was to generate some positive vision for the next 10 years of MF that you may feel is missing.

After about 90 years of building air cooled boxer motorcycle engines - BMW has just released a partially liquid cooled boxer engine. Things change and so will MF - as consumers we can choose to buy or not buy but really that is probably the limit of our influence.

As a photographer I know the equipment I have is still much better at recording the scene than I am at pointing it in the right direction at the right time.

"and so to bed."


mal

I think my discussion with Ed covers my intentions Mal... look at this thread that Tim (Tashley) created... http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/43894-return-warrior.html ...that's what I mean, although I disagree on his judgement on the comparison he makes between his MFDB and DSLR, Tim is judging that his MFDB is an overkill for his use... so he decided to sell his high-end back in favor for the DSLR... However, the back remained unsold (the whole MF camera basic kit) for some months and Tim has it back... he tried another test to justify keeping it, but it seems not to work for him. I believe that there are many feeling like Tim does currently... Thanks for posting Mal... I expect you to try and contribute as much as you can in this discussion... I think that it may contribute to help makers in the right direction if we stay on topic and have a wide spread conversation on our thoughts on the future of MF... If only we avoid how much better MFDBs IQ is and how "crappy" DSLRs are ...BS and concentrate in suggesting them our real needs and ways to expand the base of the market! :chug: