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Thread: So much for debate..

  1. #51
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Would that be grey snow. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  2. #52
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    Re: So much for debate..

    I think the MFD vs 35mm debates has to some extent made MFD users less critical about their gear, to avoid raising some angle of attack for 35mm fans. I think it is unfortunate when some become MFD sales persons rather than giving as good advice as they can user to user and sharing both good and bad experiences as I'd like this type of forum to be about (and which it still mainly is of course).
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think the MFD vs 35mm debates has to some extent made MFD users less critical about their gear, to avoid raising some angle of attack for 35mm fans. I think it is unfortunate when some become MFD sales persons rather than giving as good advice as they can user to user and sharing both good and bad experiences as I'd like this type of forum to be about (and which it still mainly is of course).
    Totally disagree.

    Plenty of griping about the USB issue with Phase One, and H4D/60 users are pissed about no promised battery for that camera.

    Other than that, I personally favor less grousing and more in-depth sharing on how to more effectively use what we have. If I have issue, I contact the company because bitching about it here is a waste of time.

    -Marc

  4. #54
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Totally disagree.

    Plenty of griping about the USB issue with Phase One, and H4D/60 users are pissed about no promised battery for that camera.

    Other than that, I personally favor less grousing and more in-depth sharing on how to more effectively use what we have. If I have issue, I contact the company because bitching about it here is a waste of time.

    -Marc
    Concerning issues and questions about usage etc I got more help from internet forums than a dealer has ever been able to provide, and I try to contribute back the best I can, for example through an in depth review of my own system showing both the good and bad. Dealers are busy, hard to come by (at least where I live) often has lots of work on the side and probably prioritises "important customers" and for someone like me dealing with mostly second hand gear it's hard to become important .
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  5. #55
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Concerning issues and questions about usage etc I got more help from internet forums than a dealer has ever been able to provide, and I try to contribute back the best I can, for example through an in depth review of my own system showing both the good and bad. Dealers are busy, hard to come by (at least where I live) often has lots of work on the side and probably prioritises "important customers" and for someone like me dealing with mostly second hand gear it's hard to become important .
    The subject is constantly complaining about a system, or about the MFD category. Not just solving something one doesn't understand. I've seen a number of negative posts blaming the camera for something, when based on my own experiences, I know it is the user's ignorance.

    However, yes, who and where you buy one of these systems is of paramount importance to be sure. That has been a mantra on this GetDpi site since it started up. If support sucks, then you at least have a place to get solutions by coming here.

    My dealer knows what he is doing or has a direct line to someone that does, and materializes out of no-where any time I have an issue. He has even come to my studio to address an issue with non-Hasselbald equipment I was using my back on, and spent hours shimming and re-shimming a Rodenstock 120 macro until it was perfect. Also dealt with a back issue that was out of warranty.

    Part of my brand loyalty is based on just how good the support is.

    I still prefer the emphasis be on how to use the gear rather than grousing about it.

    -Marc

  6. #56
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    GetDPI does not separate your importance, we are all equal in learning and sharing. LOL

    You can still ask stupid questions here. LOL

    I still like the line from our attorney friend. Just dont be a asshole. Like to post that on the front door but its not very welcoming now is it. ROTFLMAO

    Just joking
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #57
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    I've seen a number of negative posts blaming the camera for something, when based on my own experiences, I know it is the user's ignorance. fotografz-

    Marc, your experience is valid, but yours alone, and should not be expected to apply to all. I joined this forum to share my "experience", after three H3/H4D cameras I purchased new were faulty. Pieces of solder were actually in the mirror box on one camera, and frequent lock ups and electric connections on the others. Thinking I would find like minded photographers that would understand my frustrations, I was instead berated, insulted, and demeaned as being ignorant, and not prepared for the MFD experience.

    When I decided to upgrade to the rarified air of MFD, I rightfully so, expected the best of the best. Instead I was more or less abandoned by my dealer after the first two broke, tried to be taken advantage by two more dealers who offered me trade-up paths to a new camera for a few thousand $ more for my new H camera that was only 3 weeks old! You were the most outspoken critic of my experience and many others followed your lead. I did not expect this forum to be so intolerant of my experience. Now were told this forum is an autocracy even though my comments were professional and reasonable.

    However, yes, who and where you buy one of these systems is of paramount importance to be sure. That has been a mantra on this GetDpi site since it started up. If support sucks, then you at least have a place to get solutions by coming here. fotografz-

    Please see above comments.

    While for the most part you can learn a great deal of technical info and insight here, but at what price does it come with? Jack calls this place an autocracy-which simply means a system of government by one person with absolute power... the antithesis of my definition of a forum.


    Aside from the common sense etiquette that should be expected at a forum, most including myself have followed that rule. MFD is not all sunshine and lollipops and when brand or format loyalty trounces objectivity, then these discussions will continue albeit, with a touch of indignation.

  8. #58
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    Re: So much for debate..

    forum
    /ˈfrəm/
    Noun
    1) A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
    2) An Internet message board.

    governance and the maintenance of order is a different issue.
    -bob

  9. #59
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I've seen a number of negative posts blaming the camera for something, when based on my own experiences, I know it is the user's ignorance. fotografz-

    Marc, your experience is valid, but yours alone, and should not be expected to apply to all. I joined this forum to share my "experience", after three H3/H4D cameras I purchased new were faulty. Pieces of solder were actually in the mirror box on one camera, and frequent lock ups and electric connections on the others. Thinking I would find like minded photographers that would understand my frustrations, I was instead berated, insulted, and demeaned as being ignorant, and not prepared for the MFD experience.

    When I decided to upgrade to the rarified air of MFD, I rightfully so, expected the best of the best. Instead I was more or less abandoned by my dealer after the first two broke, tried to be taken advantage by two more dealers who offered me trade-up paths to a new camera for a few thousand $ more for my new H camera that was only 3 weeks old! You were the most outspoken critic of my experience and many others followed your lead. I did not expect this forum to be so intolerant of my experience. Now were told this forum is an autocracy even though my comments were professional and reasonable.

    However, yes, who and where you buy one of these systems is of paramount importance to be sure. That has been a mantra on this GetDpi site since it started up. If support sucks, then you at least have a place to get solutions by coming here. fotografz-

    Please see above comments.

    While for the most part you can learn a great deal of technical info and insight here, but at what price does it come with? Jack calls this place an autocracy-which simply means a system of government by one person with absolute power... the antithesis of my definition of a forum.


    Aside from the common sense etiquette that should be expected at a forum, most including myself have followed that rule. MFD is not all sunshine and lollipops and when brand or format loyalty trounces objectivity, then these discussions will continue albeit, with a touch of indignation.
    Sorry, I refuse to be dragged into a "he said, they said" debate over some long past perceived slight, nor will I dredge up some thread and endlessly go "point-counter point". I also do not believe anyone on this forum is so insultingly "weak minded" as to follow anyone else's lead. Quite the contrary IMO.

    If you feel the moderation of this forum doesn't fit your notions ... start your own. That is exactly what Jack and Guy did ... and did a damned good job of it compared to most any other on the internet

    -Marc
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  10. #60
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    [I] Jack calls this place an autocracy-which simply means a system of government by one person with absolute power... the antithesis of my definition of a forum.


    Aside from the common sense etiquette that should be expected at a forum, most including myself have followed that rule.
    I tend to approach this "forum" as Jack and Guy's living room...or space if you will.

    Boorish and rude behavior is not acceptable in someone's home...see no difference here. And John I am not pointing this comment at you...however I am a bit surprised that this thread has lasted as long as this. We all have our sacred beliefs and superstitions about gear and technique and it would behoove us all to be a bit more accommodating of differences of opinion and points of view.

    The more fractious this forum gets the less I feel inclined to participate...not that I have that much to impart.

    Truth is MF digital has evolved from a rather inglorious beginning to the current rather acceptable state where science, mechanical product and software produce an output heretofore not found in photography in the digital realm. In five years DSLR capture may rival it .... not at the present time. Two years ago everyone could relate horror stories concerning almost any camera...and software. That seems to have settled a bit. While I could share my precious wounds here concerning equipment failures and other disasters as many have, it seems to be a somewhat futile endeavor...in that I do not desire nor need a support group for this part of my life. Nor do I believe that the majority of the members here do either.

    The current trend to attack any point that is counter to the one we favor needs to end...perhaps listening without imparting a sense of alienation, disrespect or superiority would engender a better exchange of real usable information. Again, not singling out anyone...just thought I would enter at this point.

    Whilst nor forum may be ideal... this is as close as it gets and it will stay that way only if we all put forth our best in a collegial spirit.

    Bob
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  11. #61
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    If you feel the moderation of this forum doesn't fit your notions ... start your own. That is exactly what Jack and Guy did ... and did a damned good job of it compared to most any other on the internet

    -Marc


    Thank you sir, very well said! But the caliber of participant is paramount to a forum being good, and by far I believe we have the best participants on the entire net -- yes, take a minute to all pat yourselves on your backs! We may over moderate by some folks standards, but we do it to keep trolling and pedantry at a minimum. Based on the plethora of supporting comments we receive relative to a very few complaints, I'd say our mods AND REGULAR PARTICIPANTS are doing a stellar job. Kudos to both
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  12. #62
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    I find some of the discussion around 'autocracy' or free debate a little misplaced in this context. When we are discussing a free press, the operation of an electoral system or any discourse that is publically owned, we are quite right to expect total freedom of speech (with all of the good and bad things that leads to). However, this forum is not a voting system or a presidential debate. It is a private place to which others are invited, rather like being asked into someone's private home. Would we stand up, puff out or chests, and demand our right to say whatever we want in a private house? Or would we recognise that we have been invited into someone's space, communicate respectfully and recognise the house owner's right to ask us to leave whenever they feel like it? That is not the act of an autocrat because we have no right to be in someone else's house. We are there by invitation. We can, of course, leave and that is our total right. That's as far as it goes. So that doesn't make the owner a dictator or a bully - it just means they are making their house the sort of place they want it to be, and we can share in it (if we choose to) as long as the owners keep wanting us there.

    That's how I see it anyway...
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  13. #63
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    Re: So much for debate..

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  14. #64
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Shashin - that is utter genius. A much over-used word but apt in this case.
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  15. #65
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    Re: So much for debate..

    This is our mission statement . Pretty much sums it up


    "A place to exchange ideas, techniques, experiences AND images,
    where the discussions are fun, respectful and geared toward the goal of
    helping each other improve all aspects of our photography."

    Forum rule Number 1


    1) Keep your discussions polite, fun and on topic. In short, act like you would at a friend's dinner party. Arguing, rudeness, generally poor or negative behavior will be dealt with at moderator discretion as they see fit. This may result in the offending post(s) or entire thread(s) being deleted with or without explanation, and/or the offending poster(s) being banned or having their accounts suspended or erased. Note that broader topical and emotional latitude is tolerated in the "Sunset Bar" forum, but decisions on thread or post appropriateness remain at moderator discretion there as well.

    It's pretty damn simple. Polite
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  16. #66
    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    I notice on the Forum home page that the Medium Format department has something like3500 threads, 87,000+ posts and then when you click into the threads I see that the thread "Fun with MF images has a whopping 784,000 views.

    It seems that those of us who own or aspire to own MF gear like to check in. I know I do.

    I think the whole, "MF is dead" message may tell us more about those who post these messages than MF in general.

    Thank you to Jack, Guy, Bob and any others who make this Forum happen.

    Now I'm off to see what Don, Ed, Dan and the others have posted today.

    Regards

    Mal (IQ180, 645DF, Cambo WDS and Canon)
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  17. #67
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Honestly I have been looking at another forum today no names here but it has turned into a major mess because the moderation is simply not done. As much as I like to help people I can't even post there anymore without being hammered by some real rudeness. It's no fun it's off topic wildly and is just damn not respectfully to anyone posting an opinion or different view.

    Trust me that is not what you want here.


    Oh no names. I'm not after hurting any forum. It's there home they do what they want.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So much for debate..

    As a bit of a lurker here. I have to say that I really value this forum for the MF specific tips and advice it offers, not to mention the inspiration which so many posters here offer with their photos - simply stunning, and I a left in awe and the drive to try harder myself with what I have. No other forum I've encountered is as good for this, for which I am extremely grateful to Guy, Jack and Bob - more power to your collective elbow, Gentleman! I a much more interested in learning how to get the best out of what I've spent an unnecessary fortune on, rather than reading why something which wasn't available many years ago is better (sic). For me, the image 'fun with' threads are fantastic and truly inspirational - thank to you all, and I hope to post some of my pics at some stage when the day job allows e time to do what I love doing.
    As Jack pointed out, it's the very lack of opinionated (doubtless sincerely held) polemic which makes this site for many - so moderate away!
    Henry
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  19. #69
    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Another thing I notice is that the more conflictual threads eat up a lot of time...and then I find myself continuing the argument in my head later in the day when I should be doing something productive... So, thank you Moderators for giving us our lives back!
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Alternatively, you could become a lawyer and have a multitude of opportunities every day for meaningless arguments. Then, you would not feel the need to argue endlessly about the D800 v. MFD.
    Haha! Would you believe I got halfway through law school when I realized I really wanted to be a photographer and so dropped out and did a degree in photography instead? It seems the opportunities for heated argument are dogging me....
    Siebel
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Oh my word. That (now deleted) post was an absolute classic!
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  22. #72
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Oh my word. That (now deleted) post was an absolute classic!
    Yes it was a classic whine. It paralleled either the, "Wahhhh, I'm taking my ball and going home!" we all head in grade school, or another famous classic for most Californian's over the age of 50, "GetDPI won't have me to kick around anymore!"

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  23. #73
    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    It was absolutely hilarious - if it hadn't been so absurd, it would have been an interesting case study for behavioural science ;-)

    Here's to a more constructive atmosphere again...
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  24. #74
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So much for debate..

    I can still read it. It was classic alright. Just not sure which category it falls under. Oh never mind .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: So much for debate..

    Should go into a moderator's handbook

  26. #76
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    Re: So much for debate..

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I can still read it. It was classic alright. Just not sure which category it falls under. Oh never mind .
    Crap, I missed it ... Damn, I miss all the fun.

    I'll give ya $5 if I can read it ...

    -Marc

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    Re: So much for debate..

    Geez...... I've been away for a week and the whole world is turned upside down....

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