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So much for debate..

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
And here's some more behind the scenes input I received and am electing to share (anonymously) for your fun and enjoyment :D Oh, and this friend happens to be a criminal defense attorney:

>>Perhaps "Don't be an asshole" might be a rule to add. You'd think that would be understood, but some people can't manage.

I have to remember the adage "Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." Defense lawyer spin: maybe they don't know how they come across. I doubt it in most cases, but it's possible.<<
You know I think you could probably replace all of the guidance with those two recommendations for good forum behaviour. Just add the existing one for B&S about re-emphasizing that no price on your listing gets it yanked.
 

jagsiva

Active member
Guy/Jack/Bob,

Please keep this place sane. As a Canuck, I think it is all about balance, and sometimes policing bs is necessary. It is a shame what has happened to the other MFDB forum! Please keep up whatever you need to keep this place useful to the majority of us.

I will shamelessly admit that I have far better equipment than my abilities, but when I look at any of your work or Dan, Siebel, Graham etc., I am simply inspired. I have an IQ and 3 d800's. They all do what they do for what I am am doing when I'm doing it. I can go on the Leica forum and troll on about why my iphone is better, but have much better things to do:)

I have shots of my kids with the D800e/200F2 that would not be possible with the IQ/Arca. I have shots with the IQ/Rodies that would be impossible with the Nikon.

Again, horses for courses. My Sienna is great for the grocery store, but the 911TTS is definitely better the odd time I get a chance to whip around a corner and make a perfectly synchronized 2/3 change.

You guys own this forum, and should do what is best for your business and your customer base, the rest is just opinion. In the meantime, I will enjoy and exploit the vast majority of valuable and experienced knowledge here.

Cheers!
 

6x6

Member
The principle of free, open and uncensored debate is essential to a democratic internet forum. Otherwise it runs the risk of descending into merely a reflection of the views of the people moderating. However I am also so bored of the D800 is a better tool than that MFD tool comments. My local pro rental house has 5 times as many MFD's for rent than 35mm full frames, that says it all.

So in the interests of open debate on this forum and to help people avoid the "this gear is better than that gear" merry go round, why not simply create a section called "This gear, or that gear" (or with a Freudian slant - "Mines bigger than yours"). If a debate is created in the MFD section and descends into gear farce it can be moved across by the moderators. So open debate can continue, but the MFD section is kept on topic.

Just a thought.
 

rupho

New member
I read the thread briefly closed in question and can't help myself thinking why there are constantly people trying to make a point for 35 mm equipment in a medium format forum thread!
I can't find folks doing just the opposite in canon or Nikon forums.
Quite frankly I dont understand the motivation of preaching the 35 mm superiority gospel on the MF forum, it's getting really boring to hear it over and over again.

Guys , get a life , start shooting with whatever works for you & let's just agree as somebody suggested earlier that MF is dead instead of :deadhorse:
We can all be happier if we respect a simple fact that different equipment serves different needs , aspirations or just enjoyment.

Just my 2 cents on the subject
 

goesbang

Member
Guy/Jack/Bob,

Please keep this place sane. As a Canuck, I think it is all about balance, and sometimes policing bs is necessary. It is a shame what has happened to the other MFDB forum! Please keep up whatever you need to keep this place useful to the majority of us.

I will shamelessly admit that I have far better equipment than my abilities, but when I look at any of your work or Dan, Siebel, Graham etc., I am simply inspired. I have an IQ and 3 d800's. They all do what they do for what I am am doing when I'm doing it. I can go on the Leica forum and troll on about why my iphone is better, but have much better things to do:)

I have shots of my kids with the D800e/200F2 that would not be possible with the IQ/Arca. I have shots with the IQ/Rodies that would be impossible with the Nikon.

Again, horses for courses. My Sienna is great for the grocery store, but the 911TTS is definitely better the odd time I get a chance to whip around a corner and make a perfectly synchronized 2/3 change.

You guys own this forum, and should do what is best for your business and your customer base, the rest is just opinion. In the meantime, I will enjoy and exploit the vast majority of valuable and experienced knowledge here.

Cheers!
Wow Jag, I just thought I was sharing knowledge and learning in the process, which is what this forum, unlike any other, is about, right? May it remain so.
I concur with the general thrust of this thread, namely that the price of freedom (of speech!!!) is eternal vigilance.
I too have noted the appearance of a couple of agent provocateurs here lately. You know who you are and quite frankly, I'd be grateful if you departed to whence you came if you cannot fit in with the spirit of this place. I'm all for spirited debate and I'm sure many here have noted that I am nothing if not direct in my comments. Still, there are lines of decent conduct that should not be crossed, and I would like to take the opportunity to express 100% support for the owners and moderators here for their stand.
My interest is in participating in the community of photographers, pro, amateur, novice, expert (is there such a thing?), and advancing our collective pool of knowledge. If I wanted to brawl with ignorant, opinionated tw_ts, there are many other furums I could frequent.
This forum rocks, and I applaud the efforts to keep it so.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Wow Jag, I just thought I was sharing knowledge and learning in the process, which is what this forum, unlike any other, is about, right? May it remain so.
If I wanted to brawl with ignorant, opinionated tw_ts, there are many other furums I could frequent.
This forum rocks, and I applaud the efforts to keep it so.
Alternatively, you could become a lawyer and have a multitude of opportunities every day for meaningless arguments. Then, you would not feel the need to argue endlessly about the D800 v. MFD.
 

torger

Active member
I think the MFD vs 35mm debates has to some extent made MFD users less critical about their gear, to avoid raising some angle of attack for 35mm fans. I think it is unfortunate when some become MFD sales persons rather than giving as good advice as they can user to user and sharing both good and bad experiences as I'd like this type of forum to be about (and which it still mainly is of course).
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think the MFD vs 35mm debates has to some extent made MFD users less critical about their gear, to avoid raising some angle of attack for 35mm fans. I think it is unfortunate when some become MFD sales persons rather than giving as good advice as they can user to user and sharing both good and bad experiences as I'd like this type of forum to be about (and which it still mainly is of course).
Totally disagree.

Plenty of griping about the USB issue with Phase One, and H4D/60 users are pissed about no promised battery for that camera.

Other than that, I personally favor less grousing and more in-depth sharing on how to more effectively use what we have. If I have issue, I contact the company because bitching about it here is a waste of time.

-Marc
 

torger

Active member
Totally disagree.

Plenty of griping about the USB issue with Phase One, and H4D/60 users are pissed about no promised battery for that camera.

Other than that, I personally favor less grousing and more in-depth sharing on how to more effectively use what we have. If I have issue, I contact the company because bitching about it here is a waste of time.

-Marc
Concerning issues and questions about usage etc I got more help from internet forums than a dealer has ever been able to provide, and I try to contribute back the best I can, for example through an in depth review of my own system showing both the good and bad. Dealers are busy, hard to come by (at least where I live) often has lots of work on the side and probably prioritises "important customers" and for someone like me dealing with mostly second hand gear it's hard to become important :).
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Concerning issues and questions about usage etc I got more help from internet forums than a dealer has ever been able to provide, and I try to contribute back the best I can, for example through an in depth review of my own system showing both the good and bad. Dealers are busy, hard to come by (at least where I live) often has lots of work on the side and probably prioritises "important customers" and for someone like me dealing with mostly second hand gear it's hard to become important :).
The subject is constantly complaining about a system, or about the MFD category. Not just solving something one doesn't understand. I've seen a number of negative posts blaming the camera for something, when based on my own experiences, I know it is the user's ignorance.

However, yes, who and where you buy one of these systems is of paramount importance to be sure. That has been a mantra on this GetDpi site since it started up. If support sucks, then you at least have a place to get solutions by coming here.

My dealer knows what he is doing or has a direct line to someone that does, and materializes out of no-where any time I have an issue. He has even come to my studio to address an issue with non-Hasselbald equipment I was using my back on, and spent hours shimming and re-shimming a Rodenstock 120 macro until it was perfect. Also dealt with a back issue that was out of warranty.

Part of my brand loyalty is based on just how good the support is.

I still prefer the emphasis be on how to use the gear rather than grousing about it.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
GetDPI does not separate your importance, we are all equal in learning and sharing. LOL

You can still ask stupid questions here. LOL

I still like the line from our attorney friend. Just dont be a asshole. Like to post that on the front door but its not very welcoming now is it. ROTFLMAO

Just joking
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
I've seen a number of negative posts blaming the camera for something, when based on my own experiences, I know it is the user's ignorance. fotografz-

Marc, your experience is valid, but yours alone, and should not be expected to apply to all. I joined this forum to share my "experience", after three H3/H4D cameras I purchased new were faulty. Pieces of solder were actually in the mirror box on one camera, and frequent lock ups and electric connections on the others. Thinking I would find like minded photographers that would understand my frustrations, I was instead berated, insulted, and demeaned as being ignorant, and not prepared for the MFD experience.

When I decided to upgrade to the rarified air of MFD, I rightfully so, expected the best of the best. Instead I was more or less abandoned by my dealer after the first two broke, tried to be taken advantage by two more dealers who offered me trade-up paths to a new camera for a few thousand $ more for my new H camera that was only 3 weeks old! You were the most outspoken critic of my experience and many others followed your lead. I did not expect this forum to be so intolerant of my experience. Now were told this forum is an autocracy even though my comments were professional and reasonable.

However, yes, who and where you buy one of these systems is of paramount importance to be sure. That has been a mantra on this GetDpi site since it started up. If support sucks, then you at least have a place to get solutions by coming here. fotografz-

Please see above comments.

While for the most part you can learn a great deal of technical info and insight here, but at what price does it come with? Jack calls this place an autocracy-which simply means a system of government by one person with absolute power... the antithesis of my definition of a forum.


Aside from the common sense etiquette that should be expected at a forum, most including myself have followed that rule. MFD is not all sunshine and lollipops and when brand or format loyalty trounces objectivity, then these discussions will continue albeit, with a touch of indignation.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
fo·rum
/ˈfôrəm/
Noun
1) A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
2) An Internet message board.

governance and the maintenance of order is a different issue.
-bob
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I've seen a number of negative posts blaming the camera for something, when based on my own experiences, I know it is the user's ignorance. fotografz-

Marc, your experience is valid, but yours alone, and should not be expected to apply to all. I joined this forum to share my "experience", after three H3/H4D cameras I purchased new were faulty. Pieces of solder were actually in the mirror box on one camera, and frequent lock ups and electric connections on the others. Thinking I would find like minded photographers that would understand my frustrations, I was instead berated, insulted, and demeaned as being ignorant, and not prepared for the MFD experience.

When I decided to upgrade to the rarified air of MFD, I rightfully so, expected the best of the best. Instead I was more or less abandoned by my dealer after the first two broke, tried to be taken advantage by two more dealers who offered me trade-up paths to a new camera for a few thousand $ more for my new H camera that was only 3 weeks old! You were the most outspoken critic of my experience and many others followed your lead. I did not expect this forum to be so intolerant of my experience. Now were told this forum is an autocracy even though my comments were professional and reasonable.

However, yes, who and where you buy one of these systems is of paramount importance to be sure. That has been a mantra on this GetDpi site since it started up. If support sucks, then you at least have a place to get solutions by coming here. fotografz-

Please see above comments.

While for the most part you can learn a great deal of technical info and insight here, but at what price does it come with? Jack calls this place an autocracy-which simply means a system of government by one person with absolute power... the antithesis of my definition of a forum.


Aside from the common sense etiquette that should be expected at a forum, most including myself have followed that rule. MFD is not all sunshine and lollipops and when brand or format loyalty trounces objectivity, then these discussions will continue albeit, with a touch of indignation.
Sorry, I refuse to be dragged into a "he said, they said" debate over some long past perceived slight, nor will I dredge up some thread and endlessly go "point-counter point". I also do not believe anyone on this forum is so insultingly "weak minded" as to follow anyone else's lead. Quite the contrary IMO.

If you feel the moderation of this forum doesn't fit your notions ... start your own. That is exactly what Jack and Guy did ... and did a damned good job of it compared to most any other on the internet :thumbup:

-Marc
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Jack calls this place an autocracy-which simply means a system of government by one person with absolute power... the antithesis of my definition of a forum.


Aside from the common sense etiquette that should be expected at a forum, most including myself have followed that rule.


I tend to approach this "forum" as Jack and Guy's living room...or space if you will.

Boorish and rude behavior is not acceptable in someone's home...see no difference here. And John I am not pointing this comment at you...however I am a bit surprised that this thread has lasted as long as this. We all have our sacred beliefs and superstitions about gear and technique and it would behoove us all to be a bit more accommodating of differences of opinion and points of view.

The more fractious this forum gets the less I feel inclined to participate...not that I have that much to impart.

Truth is MF digital has evolved from a rather inglorious beginning to the current rather acceptable state where science, mechanical product and software produce an output heretofore not found in photography in the digital realm. In five years DSLR capture may rival it .... not at the present time. Two years ago everyone could relate horror stories concerning almost any camera...and software. That seems to have settled a bit. While I could share my precious wounds here concerning equipment failures and other disasters as many have, it seems to be a somewhat futile endeavor...in that I do not desire nor need a support group for this part of my life. Nor do I believe that the majority of the members here do either.

The current trend to attack any point that is counter to the one we favor needs to end...perhaps listening without imparting a sense of alienation, disrespect or superiority would engender a better exchange of real usable information. Again, not singling out anyone...just thought I would enter at this point.

Whilst nor forum may be ideal... this is as close as it gets and it will stay that way only if we all put forth our best in a collegial spirit.

Bob
 
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