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fat pixel digital backs

bensonga

Well-known member
Well, you guys certainly caught my attention with this older thread. Since I am new to MFD, and waiting for delivery of my H5D-50c, I had no idea that an older H body could be a backup camera to my primary camera.

I see some very (VERY) good work posted here, so any recommendations on a backup rig would be greatly appreciated... especially if the price is low!:)
Almost any of the Phase One P20, P21, P25, P30 or equivalent Leaf Aptus and Hasselblad backs can be found for very good/low prices now Dave. They will certainly not perform like your H5D-50c, but at low ISOs, they can still produce excellent images, as you've seen here.

Gary
 

SahotaR

Active member
Beautiful building (a church I presume) and image! May I enquire where this is?

I have very fond memories of the two years I lived in Brisbane and of my travels in Australia (1975-77).

Gary
Thanks Gary, the location is in far north Queensland, near Cairns called Yungaburra, a small town in Atherton Tableland.
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Having had the Mamiya 645 df and P21+ for a few weeks what a change its made to my photography. Such a joy to be using a analogue camera with a digital back. Operation is so simple, I praised Fuji when I started to use their cameras x100, Xpro 1, and the Xt1 but alas the latest cameras are becoming much more menu driven, which I tend to dislike. I always liked the Fuji colour and the files were outstanding. However since using the 645 the simplicity is wonderful. The whole image taking experience is a joy. The back delivers incredible colour although limited in ISO performance means the tripod is now in full time use.

Working on the files takes little or no time to render something printable. I'm using Lightroom and Adobe raw, not quite got into the whole Capture scene. The only thing on my mind is the wide angle I need something wider than 45mm. So either the 35mm or the 28mm, the 28mm seems the better bet but i've heard this is quite a marmite lens? I thought about picking up a manual 35mm as the AF on wide angle isn't that much of an issue for me. Any thoughts from anyone? Lastly I am in love with the 210mm this is a fine lens, but carting it around on the 645 body has made me think i need invest in a gun bearer :)

Heres a few more images, the top one is a 3 image pano shot on the 210mm, images below shot on the 80mm and 45mm.
<sigh>... I keep coming back to this thread... the images are magnetic as they draw me back frequently. Nick, you have to help me here... is it magic? The sensor? Settings? Post processing? What am I missing?

I absolutely love the results shown here.:)
 

Thorkil

Well-known member
Kinderdijk | NL
SWC/M | Phase One P21

Hi Jan
Wonderful pictures from all of you!
Can I ask you, while you got it, is it just pure and simple to put on a Phase One P21 back on a SWC903?
But it has to be for Hassy V-mount I assume.
And while I'm a digital-zombie (not sufficient computer-skilled) is it just simple, when I PP in C1pro10?
Best Thorkil
Ps and the iso range is just and only 100-200 I guess then, or?
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Jan,
Great timing! Lovely iconic image there!

Here in the northern hemisphere, Autumn is here. I can tell with the cooler weather, a tinge of color in the leaves, and the first day of rain for this month.

It is my favorite time of year, although the melancholy it brings, I could do without but it is hard for me to get outdoors because of my responsibilities. So, at times, reading, and daydreaming, is all I can do for a break.

This thread has captured my imagination. It would be nice to keep it going!

So for everybody else, please keep posting images from YOUR fat pixel digital backs because you have an audience already and we would be grateful for your sharing then.:):):)
 
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aztwang

Member
Amazing images everyone, amazing. A few questions if I may as I'm unsure of exact parameters. What determines a fat pixel back? Is it just the micron size of a pixel? Generally what would be considered the smallest micron size and still be considered a "fat pixel"? What are the qualities of a fat pixel back or to get more exact what are the redeeming qualities of the bigger micron sized pixel? What are the negatives? I have seen some comments that moire can be an issue. Thank you for your patience!

Cheers

Don
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Don, I am not sure there is an official definition, but approximately 9um pixels. 6um or less backs are "slim."

Why these backs are considered unique is probably a combination of factors. They will eliminate high frequencies, which could result in higher contrast. The DR is also lower, which can have a similar effect. Or it could simply be imagination. Yes, moire can be a problem. And this is definitely older technology, so noise and maximum exposure time are limitations. They are also rather archaic to use--tiny preview displays and limited menus. The p25+ I used is quaint. It is like using something from the 70's.

BTW, don't call my back fat...
 

Jan

Member
Hi Jan
Wonderful pictures from all of you!
Can I ask you, while you got it, is it just pure and simple to put on a Phase One P21 back on a SWC903?
But it has to be for Hassy V-mount I assume.
And while I'm a digital-zombie (not sufficient computer-skilled) is it just simple, when I PP in C1pro10?
Best Thorkil
Ps and the iso range is just and only 100-200 I guess then, or?
Sorry for the late reply since now only I noticed your posting. It is indeed about the mount, Phase One has backs for several mounts and Hasselblad is the V-mount indeed. Files can be processed in C1 but are also accepted by other software programs such as Photoshop and Lightroom.

This image is quite a few years ago since I own a P25+ already for several years, which I am willing to part with. Together with the SWC/M is an option.
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Time to keep this thread going!

Question:
Since joining this forum, well-populated by my talented colleagues, I have seen amazing images with fat pixel backs. I am a believer! My "faith" has no technical facts for support or even side by side visual comparisons with new digital backs like our 50c, though.

It would be great to see how a current Sony 50mp back renders an image side by side with fat pixel backs! Does anyone have images for comparison already? Dies anyone want to test the two side by side?

I would have already done a comparison test if I had a fat pixel back. Hopefully someone has access to two backs and will post comparisons!!!:):):)
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
Ok, Deltona sent me a couple of images... much appreciated!:)

I would like to see as many comparisons as possible, because I already have a project/plan in mind.:thumbup:
 

Thorkil

Well-known member
Sorry for the late reply since now only I noticed your posting. It is indeed about the mount, Phase One has backs for several mounts and Hasselblad is the V-mount indeed. Files can be processed in C1 but are also accepted by other software programs such as Photoshop and Lightroom.

This image is quite a few years ago since I own a P25+ already for several years, which I am willing to part with. Together with the SWC/M is an option.
Hi Jan. Thank you for your answer. And me too : rather late answer while my eyes didn't caught it before now. Best Thorkil
 

dave.gt

Well-known member
The Griffith Observatory

Hasselblad H2 + HC 80mm f/2.8 + Phase One P25 Digital Back

I love this one, thanks, Dez!:):):)

As I keep looking at ''this image, I find it stunning, and I cannot imagine how anything could make it better. Would a contemporary 50mp back make it better? If so, in what way?
 

DezFoto

New member
I love this one, thanks, Dez!:):):)

As I keep looking at ''this image, I find it stunning, and I cannot imagine how anything could make it better. Would a contemporary 50mp back make it better? If so, in what way?
Thank you so much!

Well, a 50mp CMOS back would give you more dynamic range (mostly in the shadows), more pixels for printing larger (22mp gives you plenty or printing ability) and a much, much broader range of acceptable ISO settings. This was shot at ISO 50 on a tripod. So while a 50mp CMOS back may not give you a better image in a creative sense, it's much, much less limited in how you can work with it. Personally I prefer the "look" of the older "fat pixel" CCD backs over the newer CMOS designs, but that's mostly a personal preference thing. If you have a film background, think of it like the difference between working with print and slide film.
 

TomTom

New member
I have been using a PhaseOne P20 on my hasselblad for years. Kind of on and off. I want to keep my V system, am very attached to it... I am beginning to have a hankering for the CFV 50C. Is that too a "Fat Pixel" back? and forgive me if this is covered somewhere in this forum, what is a fat pixel and what is the advantage?

Any thoughts on the 50c?

~Tom Upton
Palo Alto
 

drevil

Well-known member
Staff member
"Fat pixels" is a reference to the size of the pixels on the sensor.
i would say fat pixel by old definition would end with P45+ sensors, where the size is 6.8 microns.

the 50mp chip by sony used in the 50c has a pixel size of 5.3 microns. since the sensor size is smaller than the one in the p45+ and higher pixel density, i wouldnt consider is a fat pixel back, maybe once we have 200mp chips we will change the definition

*edit* if i had a chance to get a p25+ in contax mount, i would buy it instantly, but those are hard to come by.
 

Deltona

Member
I have some files of comparative subjects, taken on different days, and with different lenses, these were shot as test images. The lighting was much the same a dull overcast day. Whilst I acknowledge that I used different lenses, and the depth of field variations are quite apparent. I'm not in anyway making any direct comparisons, the P21+ certainly can hold it's own with a much newer 50mp sensor, in the right conditions.

However the fact that I shot the Pentax 645Z at ISO 3200 does indeed make the P21+ seriously undergunned in the ISO department. It is still a great back if your prepared to accept the limitations, prints from the P21+ are simply lovely, with a very subtle tone curve. Prints from the Z are as to be expected a notch up from the 21+, with a much greater degree of clarity and sharpness. I would expect that from a 50mp sensor.

The Zed has an insane amount of shadow recovery, without the usual amplified noise. The P21+ has a similar degree of shadow recovery, but, and here is the but, the noise is simply too great. What I will say and feel without doubt that the P21+ produces a file that has superb colour right from the get go.

All the files were processed in Lightroom, I know that Phase One files are best processed in Capture One, however for me, my workflow is best suited to Lightroom.

_IMG3908-Edit.jpg

CF066341.jpg

_IMG3911.jpg

CF066342-Edit.jpg
 
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