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Phamiya with Metz CL-4

Paratom

Well-known member
Hmm Tom
Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
Jono, I learned my statistic lesson with Leica M lenses ;)
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Your Rough Santa shot was also fab . . . the Boxster is dirty though . . . didn't you say you'd come and clean it?
You should see the Saab... feeelthy....

Actually, I think it's a serious issue, and that most people simply don't bother. I remember when a major professional Nikon dealer quietly replaced my 2nd 17-55 lens (after 3 24-120's), I asked them if this happened often, and the guy said that as far as he could remember nobody but me EVER returned lenses for optical problems . . .
What I dislike is the sheer effort involved in schleping stuff back. Whether in person or by post, one really has to goad oneself into action. My current rule is that if a piece of kit cost more than £2,000 I'll make a fuss. It used to be £500. I think I'm losing my touch...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Jono, I learned my statistic lesson with Leica M lenses ;)
I can tell you with some certainty that I have or have had:

1 CV 15 (perfect, still got it)
1 WATE (perfect performer but not the right form factor, sold it)
1 24 Elmarit (not perfect but pretty good. Sold it.)
1 28 Cron (perfect, still got it)
1 35 Lux (chronic focus shift, returned)
2 35 Cron (Chronic focus shift, dumped)
2 CV 35mm F2.5 (one perfect, still got it, one returned)
1 MATE (bought from Jono, perfect but boring, sold it)
1 Noctilux (second hand, got it coded, it's perfect, still got it)
1 50 lux (perfect, still got it)
1 75 Cron (perfect but I never used it, sold)
1 90 Cron (perfect but too chunky, sold it)
1 90 Macro Elmar (perfect, still have it)

So that's 15 lenses and only 4 had to go because they didn't focus properly.

Which is only a 27% failure rate. I can live with that!
:ROTFL:
 
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jonoslack

Active member
You should see the Saab... feeelthy....
Well, I'm driving quite close tomorrow (a day at Fareham), so I'll pop in and we can wash each other's cars! (the merc can clean itself though!):ROTFL:
Still, if it's filthy, I guess you must have been using it, and I'm pleased about that (so it isn't languishing in the island car park).


What I dislike is the sheer effort involved in schleping stuff back. Whether in person or by post, one really has to goad oneself into action. My current rule is that if a piece of kit cost more than £2,000 I'll make a fuss. It used to be £500. I think I'm losing my touch...
I know the feeling, it's the time it takes:sleep006::sleep006:.
I'm sure your touch is as subtle as ever (it's a kind of compliment you know . . . I hear they can be terribly effective, but never could get the hang of them myself).
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Well, I'm driving quite close tomorrow (a day at Fareham), so I'll pop in and we can wash each other's cars! (the merc can clean itself though!):ROTFL:
Still, if it's filthy, I guess you must have been using it, and I'm pleased about that (so it isn't languishing in the island car park).
I relish the thought of cleaning a car that cost even more than my *&%@ camera but unfortunately I'm in London tomorrow... I was supposed to be picking up a new lens but I'm thinking of dropping off a whole bagful instead...

:0(

Jono, never be tempted to go MF. You wouldn't believe the amount of stuff you're expected to put up with as a matter of course... it makes Leica look QC and Customer oriented. Yes, it's that bad...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Tim you had some bad luck no question but a cake walk for me. I know just want to throw pies at me. LOL

Expectations sometimes outweigh the reality sometimes but you certainly have had some crappy luck on this one
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim you had some bad luck no question but a cake walk for me. I know just want to throw pies at me. LOL

Expectations sometimes outweigh the reality sometimes but you certainly have had some crappy luck on this one
Cosmically, things are in balance though: I have great luck elsewhere and that's what matters.

I am however £££'s out of pocket on all the Metz gear that the Phase manual recommends. I wonder how fate will settle that one?

:-?

t
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Cosmically, things are in balance though: I have great luck elsewhere and that's what matters.

I am however £££'s out of pocket on all the Metz gear that the Phase manual recommends. I wonder how fate will settle that one?

:-?

t
I second Guys note that A works pretty well for me as well. For the M8 it works better than TTL, for Nikon the TTL works great. With my new Hy6 I have only used A so far (with my SB800 and with an older Metz) since I have no adapter yet.
So I dont think you have that much disadvantage if you just use your Metz in A Mode.
Or use TTL and change the ISO on the flash when you want to do exp compenstion- would this maybe work?
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I second Guys note that A works pretty well for me as well. For the M8 it works better than TTL, for Nikon the TTL works great. With my new Hy6 I have only used A so far (with my SB800 and with an older Metz) since I have no adapter yet.
So I dont think you have that much disadvantage if you just use your Metz in A Mode.
Or use TTL and change the ISO on the flash when you want to do exp compenstion- would this maybe work?
Hi Tom,

The flash is supposed to know what the ISO is from the camera body and I am not yet sure whether the system I have is failing to communicate ALL exposure information or just information regarding exposure compensation. I suspect the latter. In which case the flash knows what ISO is set from the camera.

Which leaves A mode - and that seems to work ok. However comforting that might be however, it is slightly missing the point here: firstly there are plenty of situations where TTL flash should give superior results to A if the system is designed properly. Secondly, there's a principal here: the system has fallen down on a number of fronts and what I really, truly, deeply object to at this price is learning that my default assumption with all aspects of its functioning has to be 'test it carefully because so far the odds are it won't work'.

Out of the lens, charger, software, body and back so far the only part that has functioned more or less as advertised has been the back and even that will sometimes make me wait several seconds before switching menu items and changing ISO.

As Jono says, I test thoroughly. I learned this from being an early M8 adopter when I found during a four day shoot in Venice that my new 35 lux had chronic focus shift and that a good percentage of my first day shots were not sharp. So in general I never work with children, animals or untested photographic gear. Having said that, I have or have had a wide variety of cameras from mainstream manufacturers and have never had to return an item IIRC.

But I really do appreciate your help!

t
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Tim, I also had TTL problems when shooting TTL flash with Mamiya AFD-II. On camera flash is VERY important for my event work, so it the end it was deal breaker for me and I sold the entire system ... at no small loss I might add. If I had known about the issue in advance I would have never even gone there.

My issue was different in that that I could use any ISO as long as it was 100. I went back and forth with Mamiya and Metz, replaced the flash, replaced the module twice thinking it was defective, tried a different body ... no Joy. Now, to be fair that issue may have been resolved since then as Jack indicates his works okay. But, more importantly, I couldn't use my 70-ZM5 Metz handle unit at all ... which was a real bummer because these backs need the light, and I need to be able to quickly get the handle flash off the camera for directional control.

Now, not trying to do a sales job here, just reporting my experiences ... the H3D and Metz 54 MZ-3 and 70MZ-5 with SCA 3902 Module is hands down the best MF TTL flash system I've used .... and IMO is as good, and maybe even more consistent, than my Nikon with SB800s and SB900s, which is saying a lot.

The kicker is that when I mount the 54 shoe mount or 70 series handle mount flash on the H, the camera takes over complete control. It is totally integrated functionality. All compensation functions are done by pressing the flash function button on the grip and rotating the command wheel ... without having to take your eye from the viewfinder which shows the information. With that kind of TTL control, there is no comparison to just using "A". Flash sync is to 1/800th which really works well for outdoor fill, and I use manual aperture indoors letting the TTL function do the rest of the work.

BTW, again just reporting my experiences and your mileage may very, but I have 7 Hasselblad H/C lenses and had to return none, where I've returned a couple of Canon L lenses and most of my M lenses.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim, I also had TTL problems when shooting TTL flash with Mamiya AFD-II. On camera flash is VERY important for my event work, so it the end it was deal breaker for me and I sold the entire system ... at no small loss I might add. If I had known about the issue in advance I would have never even gone there.

My issue was different in that that I could use any ISO as long as it was 100. I went back and forth with Mamiya and Metz, replaced the flash, replaced the module twice thinking it was defective, tried a different body ... no Joy. Now, to be fair that issue may have been resolved since then as Jack indicates his works okay. But, more importantly, I couldn't use my 70-ZM5 Metz handle unit at all ... which was a real bummer because these backs need the light, and I need to be able to quickly get the handle flash off the camera for directional control.

Now, not trying to do a sales job here, just reporting my experiences ... the H3D and Metz 54 MZ-3 and 70MZ-5 with SCA 3902 Module is hands down the best MF TTL flash system I've used .... and IMO is as good, and maybe even more consistent, than my Nikon with SB800s and SB900s, which is saying a lot.

The kicker is that when I mount the 54 shoe mount or 70 series handle mount flash on the H, the camera takes over complete control. It is totally integrated functionality. All compensation functions are done by pressing the flash function button on the grip and rotating the command wheel ... without having to take your eye from the viewfinder which shows the information. With that kind of TTL control, there is no comparison to just using "A". Flash sync is to 1/800th which really works well for outdoor fill, and I use manual aperture indoors letting the TTL function do the rest of the work.

BTW, again just reporting my experiences and your mileage may very, but I have 7 Hasselblad H/C lenses and had to return none, where I've returned a couple of Canon L lenses and most of my M lenses.

Hmmm, now that does sound tempting... I greatly appreciate that information since I currently have some important decisions to make...

Thank you!
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
BTW for anyone interested I have just received this from Metz technical support, who I also asked:

"Dear Mr. Ashley,

Many thanks for your e-mail enquiry of 15. Dec. 2008.

The mentioned flash unit mecablitz 45 CL-4 also can be used in connection with the camera Mamiya 645 AFDIII. For this we recommend to equip the flash unit with the adapter SCA 3952 and the cable SCA 3000 C. But in this case the flash unit only can be used at automatic-flash-mode or manual flash-mode in. Thereby the particular aperture is also manually adjustable at the camera."

So it sounds like fairly common knowledge to me...

:-(
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The kicker is that when I mount the 54 shoe mount or 70 series handle mount flash on the H, the camera takes over complete control. It is totally integrated functionality. All compensation functions are done by pressing the flash function button on the grip and rotating the command wheel ... without having to take your eye from the viewfinder which shows the information.
Again, and just for clarification and integrity for this thread, that is exactly how the 54MZ3 with 3952 foot worked on my Mamiya AFD2 body and now works with my Phase AFD3 body. ALL flash control is managed from the camera body buttons when in TTL mode, so all adjustments can be made without ever removing my eyes from the finder.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I can change the aperture, ISO with the 54 mounted via the hots shoe in TTL mode from the camera and makes the adjustments . Also makes the adjustments for zoom with different lenses as well. I am playing right now I think there is something else. Just got back from a very early executive portrait. I will update on what I can do with the flash via the body
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
All working and I can control EV on flash and also control the camera EV on AV mode
Thanks Guy, that might provide a useful alternative though what I had hoped to do was to hold the C45 off camera in a freehand way but whichever flash I use, even if I went for the same as you, wouldn't work TTL in that way because it seems there's no cable that can carry exposure information accurately.

Actually it's a bit more confusing: Metz tell me that the flash will only work in Auto or Manual mode, C1 Support tell me the same and that this is because no Metz cable exists which carries exposure compensation, and escalated Metz support via the UK sales exec tells me that none of the above is true and that the issue relates to the reflectivity of the sensor glass being different to the reflectivity of film and that positive exposure comp works better than negative exposure comp. Frankly that last one I think is tosh.

In any event the takeaway from this is that the Metz 45 (and I guess therefore all the other recommended Metz flashes that require cabled connections to the hotshoe) will not allow TTL on the Phamiya III body.

We live and learn and add to the knowledge base.

Now, anyone wanna buy a Metz 45CL-4 and SCA3000c and SCA3952? The latter two are barely used :toocool:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks Guy, that might provide a useful alternative though what I had hoped to do was to hold the C45 off camera in a freehand way but whichever flash I use, even if I went for the same as you, wouldn't work TTL in that way because it seems there's no cable that can carry exposure information accurately.

Actually it's a bit more confusing: Metz tell me that the flash will only work in Auto or Manual mode, C1 Support tell me the same and that this is because no Metz cable exists which carries exposure compensation, and escalated Metz support via the UK sales exec tells me that none of the above is true and that the issue relates to the reflectivity of the sensor glass being different to the reflectivity of film and that positive exposure comp works better than negative exposure comp. Frankly that last one I think is tosh.

In any event the takeaway from this is that the Metz 45 (and I guess therefore all the other recommended Metz flashes that require cabled connections to the hotshoe) will not allow TTL on the Phamiya III body.

We live and learn and add to the knowledge base.

Now, anyone wanna buy a Metz 45CL-4 and SCA3000c and SCA3952? The latter two are barely used :toocool:
That sucks. It appears to NOT be Mamiya's issue ... IMO it's Metz's. I suspected the same with my issue, although both companies blamed each other. Not being able to take TTL flash off camera is ridiculous, and for a camera as popular as the M645 it's even more ridiculous.

I wonder if Quantum has a Mamiya solution for times when you want "big" light? For me, I need to be able to get the light up high over group shots at weddings (bounce does work) so I can drop the shadows behind the subject and still shoot at f/5.6 or 8. Outdoor fill was never an issue, even with the Mamiya.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well there is a cable actually from Nikon SC-28 I think but I don't think it will do TTL. I actually have something here , let me try it out. It is a Metz issue they make this stuff for others like Nikon and Canon.
 
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