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Thread: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    I have the above (CL-4 not CL-4 Digital) with SCA3952 and SCA3000 all as recommended. I can get decent exposures in Auto mode by lying to the flash about the aperture or the ISO but in TTL mode, no amount of change to the flash exposure compensation or the normal exposure compensation on the camera makes any difference whatsoever. I know people generally have said they don't favour TTL but the camera/flash combo are designed for it to work, it'll be useful for me and I'd like to get there!

    I'm on body FW 1.2 and I wonder whether that might be the root of the issue?

    Any help or suggestions very gratefully received!

    Tim

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Tim, Sorry I cannot help you. As I indicated when you asked, I thought only the 54MZ3 was compatible with the AFD body and that's what I use. I can tell you the 54MZ3 and 3952 foot combo works as advertised, reading ISO set on the back and delivering decent TTL performance. (By decent I mean not as good as current Nikon TTL, but about on par with 2 generation old Nikon TTL )

    The only thing I've found that doesn't work is the auto zoom if you set the flash to the 645 format readout dimensions. Left on 35 settings, the auto zoom works fine though, and automatically zooms to match whatever focal I have mounted.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Thanks Jack!

    There's a table in the user manual that specifies which flashes will work on the body and which adapters are required and I should be well set with the combo I have. I've tried X mode, Ac mode and P mode and looked into all the custom function stuff and I think I have everything set correctly but images look identical even if I dial in -3 stops flash AND if I also dial in minus three stops regular exposure.

    I think it's a FW thing but I'm not betting on an easy answer here...

    :-(

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Tim:

    Stupid question, but are you sure you have the flash set to "TTL" mode and not "A" mode on the flash LCD? I only ask because the results you describe would be consistent with the flash set in some mode other than TTL...

    To clarify with my setup, if I set the flash to TTL and camera to Av mode: as I adjust the camera EV up or down the flash exposure remains constant while the background lighting increases or decreases respectively; if I adjust flash EV up or down, the background illumination remains constant while the flash exposure increases or decreases respectively.

    If yours isn't doing that, then clearly something is amiss. One thing to check to confirm the camera and flash are communicating properly, as you adjust lens aperture from the camera, it should read out correctly and directly on the flash's rear LCD.
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Hi Jack,

    Those behaviours are what I would expect but am not getting. The flash is set to TTL and on this model there is no LCD display...

    If I set the flash to Auto and then make exposure comp adjustments via lying to the flash about what ISO I'm using by dialing different ISOs into the dial on the flash I can get reasonable results.

    t

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Bummer, that sucks. Sounds like it may be due to the different design of the flash units themselves...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Never mind... I started a support case at the Phase website... only now I can't work out where you go on the site to see progress on open support cases.

    I'm sure all of this is down to my own stupidity!

    ;-)

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    My last straw with Phase One --> Merged with other Metz/Mamiya flash thread

    OK, I apologise in advance for raining on anyone else's parade but I really do want to warn others not to invest in Phase systems without first being aware of my experience.

    A recap: I considered the Hassy system against the Phase and ended up with a Phamiya kit with body, 80mm F2.8 lens and P45+ back - all at some very considerable expense.

    The lens was faulty and, having gone through the rigmarole of proving that, it was replaced for one which works well. The charger was faulty too, and my dealer and I went through a further FOUR before we found one that worked correctly.

    I purchased a Mamiya 28mm lens from my dealer. It was soft, as if smeared with vaseline. I returned it without replacing it.

    Things settled down. The manual is bad but Guy kindly suggested I use the Mamiya version of the camera manual and that is better. I started to get some great, sharp shots with good detail and went through a week or two of not regretting my purchase.

    Then in order to work on a project I have in mind, I purchased a Metz 45 CL-4 flash, along with SCA 3000c and SCA 3952 adaptors all as recommended in the Phase and Mamiya manuals, so I could get flash with in-body flash exposure compensation.

    It didn't work as advertised when I tested it. Mind you, with this system I really am accustomed to that feeling.

    So I raised a support case on the Phase website and after my explanations were incorrectly read and I re-stated my case, I finally got an email which culminated in the following:

    "...the outlook is not good. Basically the unfortunate news is that Metz does not seem to make a cable that will properly communicate exposure compensation info automatically. "

    In other words, much of the stuff in the manual about flash features is not true.

    Caveat Emptor everyone. Caveat Emptor. I would not buy this system again.

    Tim

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Weird. So Phase (or Mamiya) did not know that the Metz handle flashes that require the 3000 adapter cable and the 3952 foot would not communicate with the body? I wonder if Metz knows that? What's really weird is that IIRC, the AFD*2* body manual said the *only* flash that would work in TTL mode on the Mamiya body is the 54MZ3 with the 3952 foot. I have that combo and can confirm it worked as advertised on my AFD2 body and works perfectly on my AFD3 body as well. So one has to wonder why the AFD*3* manual says different and adds in the other flashes? Perhaps somebody assumed something they shouldn't have...

    Anyway Tim, I have to agree with you. You have had more problems with the Phase/Mamiya system than anybody should have to put to up with, so it makes total sense you should move on to something else. Sounds like that move will be Hassy, so I hope Hassy is everything you want it to be.

    PS: I am sending you a PM to put you in contact with another forum member who may be interested in working a trade with his Hassy system.

    Best,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    I have the same flash as Jack and the same hot shoe and I am able to work the TTL as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I have the same flash as Jack and the same hot shoe and I am able to work the TTL as well.
    Thanks guys: if I hadn't just shelled for all the Metz gear I just shelled for I'd take your advice cos I'm sure it's right: the difference is that 54 is shoe mounted so it doesn't need the SCA3000 adapter and what Phase seem to be saying is that that is where the problem lies.

    Me and Phase are cursed, that's for sure. But what I find amazing is that Mamiya have notes on file about all this flash problem and yet Phase is still putting out spec sheets and manuals that state clearly that the stuff works. Has no one other than me noticed this? Did Phase never bother to actually test a feature that takes up 4% of their manual?

    On my dealer's counter there's an advertising mat for the P+ system that claims it offers 15 stops of DR. I asked him about it, saying that I'd heard that it was rather less. He replied that Phase don't make that claim any more.

    I wonder what will be left once they've stripped out all the other stuff that simply isn't true? And how many customers?...

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Tashley,
    I am a newbie with MF but did not go the phase but Sinar-Hy6-54-way.
    I understand that you are frustrated-but frankly as much bad luck you had so far- I bet it only can get better. I wouldnt yet give up on the system if I were you.
    One thing I have learned over the last weeks is that MF is just different in many ways not as comfortable and advanced as the modern SLR systems.

    I guess most people would use professional lights often and therefore the Metz "problem" might not be a problem for them.

    An example from my Hy6 system: The white balance presets of the Sinar back and software seem to be way off (in my experiece) - but as I understand the "typical" MF-user shoots a white/greay card anyways to get really accurate white balance-so its not a problem.

    What I would like to say is that I am pretty sure there are some imperfect things in every system which need workarounds.

    And if you have had 2 faulty lenses out of three I bet the next 5 ones should be fine. Just a statistic thing

    Cheers, Tom

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Tashley,
    I am a newbie with MF but did not go the phase but Sinar-Hy6-54-way.
    I understand that you are frustrated-but frankly as much bad luck you had so far- I bet it only can get better. I wouldnt yet give up on the system if I were you.
    One thing I have learned over the last weeks is that MF is just different in many ways not as comfortable and advanced as the modern SLR systems.

    I guess most people would use professional lights often and therefore the Metz "problem" might not be a problem for them.

    An example from my Hy6 system: The white balance presets of the Sinar back and software seem to be way off (in my experiece) - but as I understand the "typical" MF-user shoots a white/greay card anyways to get really accurate white balance-so its not a problem.

    What I would like to say is that I am pretty sure there are some imperfect things in every system which need workarounds.

    And if you have had 2 faulty lenses out of three I bet the next 5 ones should be fine. Just a statistic thing

    Cheers, Tom

    Tom, you speak words of wisdom. Want to swap?

    ;-)

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Tim, TTL is way over rated and i actually get better results in A mode.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Tom, you speak words of wisdom. Want to swap?

    ;-)
    Actually I would like a combination of your back and my camera - but that doesnt work

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post

    And if you have had 2 faulty lenses out of three I bet the next 5 ones should be fine. Just a statistic thing

    Cheers, Tom
    Hmm Tom
    Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

    but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

    Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmm Tom
    Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

    but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

    Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
    Hey Jono! Nice to see you here... how's tricks? And thanks for the Christmas card, arrived today - lovely shot!

    WRT the above - I must be on manufacturers' hit lists because of my unfortunate habit of checking things out... I kind of like 'em to work as advertised, what with having paid for them and everything!

    ;-)

    T

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmm Tom
    Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

    but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

    Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
    Hey Jono! Nice to see you here... how's tricks? And thanks for the Christmas card, arrived today - lovely shot!

    WRT the above - I must be on manufacturers' hit list because of my unfortunate habit of checking things out... I kind of like 'em to work as advertised, what with having paid for them and everything!

    ;-)

    T

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Tim, TTL is way over rated and i actually get better results in A mode.
    I'm not surprised!

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hey Jono! Nice to see you here... how's tricks? And thanks for the Christmas card, arrived today - lovely shot!
    Your Rough Santa shot was also fab . . . the Boxster is dirty though . . . didn't you say you'd come and clean it?
    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    WRT the above - I must be on manufacturers' hit lists because of my unfortunate habit of checking things out... I kind of like 'em to work as advertised, what with having paid for them and everything!

    ;-)

    T
    I think they're winding you up

    Actually, I think it's a serious issue, and that most people simply don't bother. I remember when a major professional Nikon dealer quietly replaced my 2nd 17-55 lens (after 3 24-120's), I asked them if this happened often, and the guy said that as far as he could remember nobody but me EVER returned lenses for optical problems . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmm Tom
    Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

    but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

    Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
    Jono, I learned my statistic lesson with Leica M lenses

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Jono, I learned my statistic lesson with Leica M lenses
    Well, if you can afford enough to do a statistically valid sample . . . . then I don't think statistics apply to you anyway

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Your Rough Santa shot was also fab . . . the Boxster is dirty though . . . didn't you say you'd come and clean it?
    You should see the Saab... feeelthy....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Actually, I think it's a serious issue, and that most people simply don't bother. I remember when a major professional Nikon dealer quietly replaced my 2nd 17-55 lens (after 3 24-120's), I asked them if this happened often, and the guy said that as far as he could remember nobody but me EVER returned lenses for optical problems . . .
    What I dislike is the sheer effort involved in schleping stuff back. Whether in person or by post, one really has to goad oneself into action. My current rule is that if a piece of kit cost more than 2,000 I'll make a fuss. It used to be 500. I think I'm losing my touch...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Jono, I learned my statistic lesson with Leica M lenses
    I can tell you with some certainty that I have or have had:

    1 CV 15 (perfect, still got it)
    1 WATE (perfect performer but not the right form factor, sold it)
    1 24 Elmarit (not perfect but pretty good. Sold it.)
    1 28 Cron (perfect, still got it)
    1 35 Lux (chronic focus shift, returned)
    2 35 Cron (Chronic focus shift, dumped)
    2 CV 35mm F2.5 (one perfect, still got it, one returned)
    1 MATE (bought from Jono, perfect but boring, sold it)
    1 Noctilux (second hand, got it coded, it's perfect, still got it)
    1 50 lux (perfect, still got it)
    1 75 Cron (perfect but I never used it, sold)
    1 90 Cron (perfect but too chunky, sold it)
    1 90 Macro Elmar (perfect, still have it)

    So that's 15 lenses and only 4 had to go because they didn't focus properly.

    Which is only a 27% failure rate. I can live with that!
    Last edited by tashley; 15th December 2008 at 16:06.

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    You should see the Saab... feeelthy....
    Well, I'm driving quite close tomorrow (a day at Fareham), so I'll pop in and we can wash each other's cars! (the merc can clean itself though!)
    Still, if it's filthy, I guess you must have been using it, and I'm pleased about that (so it isn't languishing in the island car park).


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    What I dislike is the sheer effort involved in schleping stuff back. Whether in person or by post, one really has to goad oneself into action. My current rule is that if a piece of kit cost more than 2,000 I'll make a fuss. It used to be 500. I think I'm losing my touch...
    I know the feeling, it's the time it takes:sleep006::sleep006:.
    I'm sure your touch is as subtle as ever (it's a kind of compliment you know . . . I hear they can be terribly effective, but never could get the hang of them myself).

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, I'm driving quite close tomorrow (a day at Fareham), so I'll pop in and we can wash each other's cars! (the merc can clean itself though!)
    Still, if it's filthy, I guess you must have been using it, and I'm pleased about that (so it isn't languishing in the island car park).
    I relish the thought of cleaning a car that cost even more than my *&%@ camera but unfortunately I'm in London tomorrow... I was supposed to be picking up a new lens but I'm thinking of dropping off a whole bagful instead...

    :0(

    Jono, never be tempted to go MF. You wouldn't believe the amount of stuff you're expected to put up with as a matter of course... it makes Leica look QC and Customer oriented. Yes, it's that bad...

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Tim you had some bad luck no question but a cake walk for me. I know just want to throw pies at me. LOL

    Expectations sometimes outweigh the reality sometimes but you certainly have had some crappy luck on this one
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Tim you had some bad luck no question but a cake walk for me. I know just want to throw pies at me. LOL

    Expectations sometimes outweigh the reality sometimes but you certainly have had some crappy luck on this one
    Cosmically, things are in balance though: I have great luck elsewhere and that's what matters.

    I am however 's out of pocket on all the Metz gear that the Phase manual recommends. I wonder how fate will settle that one?

    :-?

    t

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Cosmically, things are in balance though: I have great luck elsewhere and that's what matters.

    I am however 's out of pocket on all the Metz gear that the Phase manual recommends. I wonder how fate will settle that one?

    :-?

    t
    I second Guys note that A works pretty well for me as well. For the M8 it works better than TTL, for Nikon the TTL works great. With my new Hy6 I have only used A so far (with my SB800 and with an older Metz) since I have no adapter yet.
    So I dont think you have that much disadvantage if you just use your Metz in A Mode.
    Or use TTL and change the ISO on the flash when you want to do exp compenstion- would this maybe work?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I second Guys note that A works pretty well for me as well. For the M8 it works better than TTL, for Nikon the TTL works great. With my new Hy6 I have only used A so far (with my SB800 and with an older Metz) since I have no adapter yet.
    So I dont think you have that much disadvantage if you just use your Metz in A Mode.
    Or use TTL and change the ISO on the flash when you want to do exp compenstion- would this maybe work?
    Hi Tom,

    The flash is supposed to know what the ISO is from the camera body and I am not yet sure whether the system I have is failing to communicate ALL exposure information or just information regarding exposure compensation. I suspect the latter. In which case the flash knows what ISO is set from the camera.

    Which leaves A mode - and that seems to work ok. However comforting that might be however, it is slightly missing the point here: firstly there are plenty of situations where TTL flash should give superior results to A if the system is designed properly. Secondly, there's a principal here: the system has fallen down on a number of fronts and what I really, truly, deeply object to at this price is learning that my default assumption with all aspects of its functioning has to be 'test it carefully because so far the odds are it won't work'.

    Out of the lens, charger, software, body and back so far the only part that has functioned more or less as advertised has been the back and even that will sometimes make me wait several seconds before switching menu items and changing ISO.

    As Jono says, I test thoroughly. I learned this from being an early M8 adopter when I found during a four day shoot in Venice that my new 35 lux had chronic focus shift and that a good percentage of my first day shots were not sharp. So in general I never work with children, animals or untested photographic gear. Having said that, I have or have had a wide variety of cameras from mainstream manufacturers and have never had to return an item IIRC.

    But I really do appreciate your help!

    t

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Tim, I also had TTL problems when shooting TTL flash with Mamiya AFD-II. On camera flash is VERY important for my event work, so it the end it was deal breaker for me and I sold the entire system ... at no small loss I might add. If I had known about the issue in advance I would have never even gone there.

    My issue was different in that that I could use any ISO as long as it was 100. I went back and forth with Mamiya and Metz, replaced the flash, replaced the module twice thinking it was defective, tried a different body ... no Joy. Now, to be fair that issue may have been resolved since then as Jack indicates his works okay. But, more importantly, I couldn't use my 70-ZM5 Metz handle unit at all ... which was a real bummer because these backs need the light, and I need to be able to quickly get the handle flash off the camera for directional control.

    Now, not trying to do a sales job here, just reporting my experiences ... the H3D and Metz 54 MZ-3 and 70MZ-5 with SCA 3902 Module is hands down the best MF TTL flash system I've used .... and IMO is as good, and maybe even more consistent, than my Nikon with SB800s and SB900s, which is saying a lot.

    The kicker is that when I mount the 54 shoe mount or 70 series handle mount flash on the H, the camera takes over complete control. It is totally integrated functionality. All compensation functions are done by pressing the flash function button on the grip and rotating the command wheel ... without having to take your eye from the viewfinder which shows the information. With that kind of TTL control, there is no comparison to just using "A". Flash sync is to 1/800th which really works well for outdoor fill, and I use manual aperture indoors letting the TTL function do the rest of the work.

    BTW, again just reporting my experiences and your mileage may very, but I have 7 Hasselblad H/C lenses and had to return none, where I've returned a couple of Canon L lenses and most of my M lenses.

  32. #32
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Tim, I also had TTL problems when shooting TTL flash with Mamiya AFD-II. On camera flash is VERY important for my event work, so it the end it was deal breaker for me and I sold the entire system ... at no small loss I might add. If I had known about the issue in advance I would have never even gone there.

    My issue was different in that that I could use any ISO as long as it was 100. I went back and forth with Mamiya and Metz, replaced the flash, replaced the module twice thinking it was defective, tried a different body ... no Joy. Now, to be fair that issue may have been resolved since then as Jack indicates his works okay. But, more importantly, I couldn't use my 70-ZM5 Metz handle unit at all ... which was a real bummer because these backs need the light, and I need to be able to quickly get the handle flash off the camera for directional control.

    Now, not trying to do a sales job here, just reporting my experiences ... the H3D and Metz 54 MZ-3 and 70MZ-5 with SCA 3902 Module is hands down the best MF TTL flash system I've used .... and IMO is as good, and maybe even more consistent, than my Nikon with SB800s and SB900s, which is saying a lot.

    The kicker is that when I mount the 54 shoe mount or 70 series handle mount flash on the H, the camera takes over complete control. It is totally integrated functionality. All compensation functions are done by pressing the flash function button on the grip and rotating the command wheel ... without having to take your eye from the viewfinder which shows the information. With that kind of TTL control, there is no comparison to just using "A". Flash sync is to 1/800th which really works well for outdoor fill, and I use manual aperture indoors letting the TTL function do the rest of the work.

    BTW, again just reporting my experiences and your mileage may very, but I have 7 Hasselblad H/C lenses and had to return none, where I've returned a couple of Canon L lenses and most of my M lenses.

    Hmmm, now that does sound tempting... I greatly appreciate that information since I currently have some important decisions to make...

    Thank you!

  33. #33
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    BTW for anyone interested I have just received this from Metz technical support, who I also asked:

    "Dear Mr. Ashley,

    Many thanks for your e-mail enquiry of 15. Dec. 2008.

    The mentioned flash unit mecablitz 45 CL-4 also can be used in connection with the camera Mamiya 645 AFDIII. For this we recommend to equip the flash unit with the adapter SCA 3952 and the cable SCA 3000 C. But in this case the flash unit only can be used at automatic-flash-mode or manual flash-mode in. Thereby the particular aperture is also manually adjustable at the camera."

    So it sounds like fairly common knowledge to me...

    :-(

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    The kicker is that when I mount the 54 shoe mount or 70 series handle mount flash on the H, the camera takes over complete control. It is totally integrated functionality. All compensation functions are done by pressing the flash function button on the grip and rotating the command wheel ... without having to take your eye from the viewfinder which shows the information.
    Again, and just for clarification and integrity for this thread, that is exactly how the 54MZ3 with 3952 foot worked on my Mamiya AFD2 body and now works with my Phase AFD3 body. ALL flash control is managed from the camera body buttons when in TTL mode, so all adjustments can be made without ever removing my eyes from the finder.
    Jack
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    I can change the aperture, ISO with the 54 mounted via the hots shoe in TTL mode from the camera and makes the adjustments . Also makes the adjustments for zoom with different lenses as well. I am playing right now I think there is something else. Just got back from a very early executive portrait. I will update on what I can do with the flash via the body
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    All working and I can control EV on flash and also control the camera EV on AV mode
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    All working and I can control EV on flash and also control the camera EV on AV mode
    Thanks Guy, that might provide a useful alternative though what I had hoped to do was to hold the C45 off camera in a freehand way but whichever flash I use, even if I went for the same as you, wouldn't work TTL in that way because it seems there's no cable that can carry exposure information accurately.

    Actually it's a bit more confusing: Metz tell me that the flash will only work in Auto or Manual mode, C1 Support tell me the same and that this is because no Metz cable exists which carries exposure compensation, and escalated Metz support via the UK sales exec tells me that none of the above is true and that the issue relates to the reflectivity of the sensor glass being different to the reflectivity of film and that positive exposure comp works better than negative exposure comp. Frankly that last one I think is tosh.

    In any event the takeaway from this is that the Metz 45 (and I guess therefore all the other recommended Metz flashes that require cabled connections to the hotshoe) will not allow TTL on the Phamiya III body.

    We live and learn and add to the knowledge base.

    Now, anyone wanna buy a Metz 45CL-4 and SCA3000c and SCA3952? The latter two are barely used

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Guy, that might provide a useful alternative though what I had hoped to do was to hold the C45 off camera in a freehand way but whichever flash I use, even if I went for the same as you, wouldn't work TTL in that way because it seems there's no cable that can carry exposure information accurately.

    Actually it's a bit more confusing: Metz tell me that the flash will only work in Auto or Manual mode, C1 Support tell me the same and that this is because no Metz cable exists which carries exposure compensation, and escalated Metz support via the UK sales exec tells me that none of the above is true and that the issue relates to the reflectivity of the sensor glass being different to the reflectivity of film and that positive exposure comp works better than negative exposure comp. Frankly that last one I think is tosh.

    In any event the takeaway from this is that the Metz 45 (and I guess therefore all the other recommended Metz flashes that require cabled connections to the hotshoe) will not allow TTL on the Phamiya III body.

    We live and learn and add to the knowledge base.

    Now, anyone wanna buy a Metz 45CL-4 and SCA3000c and SCA3952? The latter two are barely used
    That sucks. It appears to NOT be Mamiya's issue ... IMO it's Metz's. I suspected the same with my issue, although both companies blamed each other. Not being able to take TTL flash off camera is ridiculous, and for a camera as popular as the M645 it's even more ridiculous.

    I wonder if Quantum has a Mamiya solution for times when you want "big" light? For me, I need to be able to get the light up high over group shots at weddings (bounce does work) so I can drop the shadows behind the subject and still shoot at f/5.6 or 8. Outdoor fill was never an issue, even with the Mamiya.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not being able to take TTL flash off camera is ridiculous, and for a camera as popular as the M645 it's even more ridiculous.
    My own thoughts exactly. It all comes down to a cable. Maybe Phase should just get some made?

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Well there is a cable actually from Nikon SC-28 I think but I don't think it will do TTL. I actually have something here , let me try it out. It is a Metz issue they make this stuff for others like Nikon and Canon.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quantum makes a Q-TTL adapter for Mamiya that works with their
    high end flash the name I can't remember right now.

    Paul Caldwell
    photosofarkansas.com

  42. #42
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Paul, I found it:

    D25 - Mamiya 645 AF
    for Mamiya 645AF, 645AFD, 645 AFD II

    That is genuinely useful and it looks as if this is the way to go for greater flexibility in future!

    Really big thanks,

    Tim

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    Re: Phamiya with Metz CL-4

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not being able to take TTL flash off camera is ridiculous, and for a camera as popular as the M645 it's even more ridiculous.
    Uh guys, I *CAN* and *DO* do off camera TTL with my Metz!

    I use the SCA 3008 A cable: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ff_Camera.html. This cable goes between the 3952 foot and the 54MZ3 unit, so the foot stays on camera. The flash sits on the other end of the cable sans any foot, which is in turn mounted to the top of a Stroboframe flip bracket, so the cord always stays with the bracket. I then have an RRS clamp on the Strobo flip for mounting directly to my RRS L-bracket, so everything assembles in flash (ha!)

    A few FWIW's:

    1) This cable also keeps an "Auto" sensor at camera level for superior Auto mode flash in off-camera situations. Probably one of the reasons it is as expensive as it is.

    2) I did a ton of research before going this route and there are NO other cables I could find that would maintain the Mamiya pin pattern. Best I can tell is it is a "reverse" Minolta configuration. So I guess one might be able to cobble a Minolta cable's ends so they could be inserted backwards onto the respective camera and flash units.
    Jack
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