Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: LCC & stitching tips please?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like

    LCC & stitching tips please?

    Can I pick more experienced brains here - I'm having problems with stitching and LCC:

    I thought when an LCC is applied, the color shift and light fall-off in panels of, e.g. a simple 2 way stitch will even out any color imbalances, but it doesn't 100% fix it, and I'm still having to go into C1's Color balance and visually fine-tune each section so they are closer at the point where the images will meet. Is this how it is, or am I missing a trick?

    My workflow: make an LCC for each shot as its taken, same aperture, process it as an LCC in C1, (tried both Technical Wide Angle setting on and off) and then apply it to its relevant shot. It sure helps get you in the ballpark, but its not a home run - the left and right half are still slightly different, and need a bit of careful color tweaking to come closer. I do color balance the LCCs to neutral grey in the middle - should I be doing it at the overlap/common edge, or is this immaterial?

    (IQ180 + Alpa Max + variety of lenses, usually the new 90mm HR Alpagon + C1 7.1)

    thanks
    Last edited by narikin; 16th April 2013 at 16:43.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    What version of C1 are you using?

    If you are simply creating and applying LCC, I have noticed that sometimes strange things happen. Try saving the LCC as a preset and then applying from the pull down in the LCC tools panel.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    For me it just sounds looks like a typical IQ180 Problem. Does it happen with all images or just sometimes ? For me it's not always but often. The P65 had never any similiar Problems. I think it actually relates to the issue that the IQ180 is much more sensetive when it comes to stitching.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Jagsiva - Am using C1 Pro 7.1 - the latest version.

    Christopher - Yes the IQ180 is far worse for color casts. The P65/IQ160 sensor was much better in this respect, totally agree. And I think, so do Phase. What I don't get is why LCC doesn't fix it like its supposed to?

    On top of all this, I'm not even using wide-angle lenses, which make more of a problem with incident angle color casts. The widest Alpa lens I own so far is a 60mm!

  5. #5
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    i would think if you are stitching, that the edge images at their far edges would have the most color cast, and not at the overlap edges with central images. implying that the LCC is over-correcting the edge images

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I don't know if I am correct, but I have the feeling the issue is a global one. I mean that the difference in two shots when stiching isn't really the normal Color Cast, which LCC kills perfectly, but that the whole Image (Color and Lumin.) Is different because the light is hitting the Sensor in a different angle. As I don't have the technical infos, it's just a wild guess, but it could be tiny internal relfections in the sensor which produces different images.

    And please DON'T give me the Explanation, well 30 seconds have passed between the images and the light changed... My Cannon can do it and my Nikon as well without showing any differences in COLOR.
    Christopher Hauser
    My iPhone / iPad Apps
    http://www.hauser-photoart.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  7. #7
    New Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    8
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I use an Phase 40+ with an Arca MLine2 and have the same problem all the time. I think neutralizing the LCCs to medium grey is a mistake. In C7.1 simply using the LCC shots and creating LCCs with the menu command is sufficient and will give you better results than taking the added step of neutralizing to grey. But there is no question that there is sufficient variability in the way the program creates LCCs and applies them to their respective photographs in a stitching workflow that small colour discrepancies at the stitching interfaces are created. I find this is true from top to bottom: In a two or three way stitch using vertical components, the bottoms may match after LCC application but not the tops, or vice-versa. The wide-angle option for wide angle lenses works better than C1 v6 did but a lot of fiddling with colour and sometimes density is till required.

  8. #8
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Use custom white balance when stitching. Makes life easier later.
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    What makes it easier ? I mean what is the benefit ? So far I use daylight and than use the tweaked one.

  10. #10
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Are your exposures shifted or moving the camera?

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    In my case: Exposures for example are 10s each, only the back is moved lens stays the same. Still different color in both images, with same C1 settings and LCC applied.

  12. #12
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain & Sweden
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I have found that auto or daylight white balance produce a small variance between exposures (no matter how fast you are or if light 'seems' constant). Using a fixed Kelvin for the raw makes it easier to develop the same tone in Capture One.
    Alpa FPS MAX TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post
    I have found that auto or daylight white balance produce a small variance between exposures (no matter how fast you are or if light 'seems' constant). Using a fixed Kelvin for the raw makes it easier to develop the same tone in Capture One.
    While I normally keep my IQ160 set to auto this makes some sense. Each shot will produce its own white balance if left on auto - no matter how small it might be it may be enough to effect the outcome. I'm on a trip next week and will try to remember this and do a test using both auto and custom.

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  14. #14
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I keep the IQ180 WB default set to daylight. It's more consistent and easier to work with later, imho

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    32 31' 37.06" N, 111 6' 0.9" W
    Posts
    4,333
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I keep the IQ180 WB default set to daylight. It's more consistent and easier to work with later, imho
    Not a bad idea for a quick down and dirty hit and run...
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    In theory (...) WB should make no difference in RAW. Once you have applied a set of changes in C1, then that's it, regardless of what was set on the back.

    But I will give it a try, as "in theory bumblebees can't fly"
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    79
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Another thing you might like to try (or already do), is to make sure you undo any corrections -like curves, highlights, shadows etc -that might have been applied on your LCC's before you process them. It makes sure you don't "accentuate" any irregularities.

  18. #18
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    white balance in the back is just a convenience (and i use daylight); i always white balance in C1. my thinking is if stitching (or shooting pano's), first apply the specific LCC to each shot, then white balance one of the shots using a neutral element in the image, then copy the same WB to each shifted image

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    white balance in the back is just a convenience (and i use daylight); i always white balance in C1. my thinking is if stitching (or shooting pano's), first apply the specific LCC to each shot, then white balance one of the shots using a neutral element in the image, then copy the same WB to each shifted image
    Yep, thats what I do - apply to each its specific LCCs, then adjust the WB of a good example, but if I simply copy that WB across, they are not the same, and do not match - one side of a stitch has different cast than the other, and still needs manual adjustment to get closer.

    It's odd, and to me is not what applying an LCC is meant to do - remove angular color shifts.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,112
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I have the exact same issue with my Aptus II 7, I use daylight wb while shooting, but no matter what I have to manually adjust one image before stitching.

    Did you ever find a solution?

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Yep, thats what I do - apply to each its specific LCCs, then adjust the WB of a good example, but if I simply copy that WB across, they are not the same, and do not match - one side of a stitch has different cast than the other, and still needs manual adjustment to get closer.

    It's odd, and to me is not what applying an LCC is meant to do - remove angular color shifts.
    Peter
    My website

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    On the issue of WB, after you create the LCC, auto white balance it before applying to each file you are going to stitch. This has helped me quite a bit, and also gives a very accurate WB.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    I have the exact same issue with my Aptus II 7, I use daylight wb while shooting, but no matter what I have to manually adjust one image before stitching.

    Did you ever find a solution?
    No, I never found a solution or answer.

    My best guess is that an LCC fixes the color cast within an image - the Red-Green shifts from one side to the other - but does not do that to a common reference point. So a right hand stitch will have the color casts within it smoothed out as required, and the left hand one within it, but not to the same neutral point relative to each other. So... they still need manually aligning.

    Luckily Photomerge in Photoshop smooths out the color anomalies to a decent degree, if you can get it in the ballpark to begin with.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #23
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Draper, Utah
    Posts
    871
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    134

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    No, I never found a solution or answer.

    My best guess is that an LCC fixes the color cast within an image - the Red-Green shifts from one side to the other - but does not do that to a common reference point. So a right hand stitch will have the color casts within it smoothed out as required, and the left hand one within it, but not to the same neutral point relative to each other. So... they still need manually aligning.
    This is how I've always felt as well. As far as the software is concerned each LCC adjustment is relative only to the image it's being applied to and so density corrections are made only to even out the image, not push it to a standard density.

    Photoshop CS6/CC does a pretty good job blending these differences out, but issues like this is why I pretty much moved to a pano head and quit trying to make stitches moving the back around.
    wayne
    My gallery

  24. #24
    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,112
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Thanks, I will give it a try..

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    On the issue of WB, after you create the LCC, auto white balance it before applying to each file you are going to stitch. This has helped me quite a bit, and also gives a very accurate WB.
    Peter
    My website

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    Thanks, I will give it a try..

    Peter
    Peter, have you had a chance to give this a shot? Would like to hear your thoughts on how it is working. I think it gives a more neutral WB, but just want to make sure it is not simply in my placebo brain

  26. #26
    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1,112
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I haven't tried it out yet, but will let you know my findings.
    One thing though, as a Leaf user I prefer to use Leaf Capture to apply LCC which as far as I can see doesn't have an auto white balance thing. I think Leaf Capture does a way better job than Capture One regarding removal of centerfold and dust..

    Peter

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Peter, have you had a chance to give this a shot? Would like to hear your thoughts on how it is working. I think it gives a more neutral WB, but just want to make sure it is not simply in my placebo brain
    Peter
    My website

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    431
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: LCC & stitching tips please?

    I have tried this and it does not make any difference if you WB before or after creating LCC. Basically the LCC just applies a correction unique to each image, not a common WB, or a white balance chosen from within the LCC reference frame.

    So, to take a simple example: a 2 way stitch, right and left. The right half is pink, by varying degrees across the frame, from neutral-y pink to near red as you get increasing angularity from the lens; the left hand panel is green shifted from neutral-green to quite green across it - the same but opposite issue. The right panel has that pink to red cast neutralized by LCC, but *not* to an established WB point. The Left panel is likewise treated to eliminate the green, but not to a common neutral point either. It remains different from the other side, even after LCC, so they need manually balancing, and/or use the Photoshop 'auto blend layers' command, which is pretty good in resolving things, if you are at least in the ballpark.

    We must remember that LCCs were originally designed for single images showing casts (green:red across a single image for example) to neutralize that. You are still then expected to WB that image, the LCC does not fix or provide that WB point.

    Perhaps we should stop guessing though and post on the C1's own forums!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •