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Thread: Just thinking of a volte face

  1. #51
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    However I do have one suggestion that is simple and which gets rid of this problem altogether: there would be a firmware tweak that does the following:

    [*] User identifies to back that tech cam is being used with lens that needs LCC
    [*] After exposure back asks you to identify the lens from a list you have already set up
    [*] Having done so, back asks for shooting parameters (largely: aperture, shift, tilt) which can be entered from tab-able lists.
    [*] For each subsequent shot back asks whether these parameters are unchanged.
    [*] Photographer then has some additional metadata that identifies what 'library' LCC (s)he needs to use or at worst to shoot.

    Easy. Admittedly the second order issues of WB and focus distance also impact the LCC but if we assume that most wide shots are focussed at somewhere between 5m and infinity and that the shooter has done a proper WB, then we should have gotten most of the way to solving a problem which, frankly, has really p****d people off.
    I definitely agree with this. It strikes me that with all the discussion by Phase One about the processing power of the IQ back that they really should have augmented the software with some tools.

    Another in addition to the shooting lens, rise/shift/tilt metadata / LCC info would be something like a tilt calculator / look up tables. If I can write one, Phase One certainly can. How about even an open plug in architecture to add tools?
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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  2. #52
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    With all due respect... Many of your threads are about dissatisfaction with your gear, but yet you own some of the finest available. The embodiment of perfection is a perceived notion, one that can't be upgraded, purchased, or implied. The quality of inspiration from others is evident in your own work, not by what camera or lens they used, but by your own artistic interpretation. Thus, you have "payed it forward" so to speak, with your contribution to others artistic needs...thank you!

    MFD is very personal and emotional as a direct result of the price point, and unfortunately, only lenses can justify whether it's worth the investment. An Alpa and Cambo are both great cameras, but more or less just a simple conduit for your IQ180. You should enjoy that DB to its fullest and not be too particular with the limitations of every camera and lens combination. I speak from experience and find that getting away from absolute does not diminish my creativity in any regard, in fact, the opposite is true, it allows me to relax... and photograph the forest through the trees.
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I speak from experience and find that getting away from absolute does not diminish my creativity in any regard, in fact, the opposite is true, it allows me to relax... and photograph the forest through the trees.
    In a perfect world but you have to enjoy using the equipment first.

    Owning great equipment that you enjoy using is the perfect vehicle to becoming more creative and why getting the equipment right for some is such an open topic of discussion and bewilderment.

    If gear had no input in the creative process that we'd all still be shooting the cheap cameras our photography obsession started with. Personally, I don't subscribe to the cameras don't matter train of thought and I doubt many photo geeks do.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    I think you've missed my point. Obviously gear contributes to the creative process and quite frankly, those cheap cameras you've mentioned have captured some of my most creative images; albeit, a perceived notion. Putting ego aside, I too chased perfection through various expensive camera platforms, in hopes of finding that personal, creative signature for my Fine Art work. For other demanding clients, I just use what's necessary. All viewfinders will observe the same scene because cameras do in fact matter, but it's what you expect from it that probably matters most.

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    I think it is important to distinguish between calibrations inherent to the sensor, and those which arise from the particular optical configuration ahead of the sensor. In the first category you have the CCD segments equalization you referred to...basically offsets subtraction and gain map division. Dark frame subtraction is another example. In the second category you have the lens cast and LCC issue. To me, a file is still 'raw' and 'original' if it has only had the first category of corrections applied in-camera...it is as raw as you can get from that camera anyway; not pure raw like Canon but tweaked raw like Nikon. Obviously de-Bayering comes later and its output is no longer raw.

    I too work in scientific imaging, and the policy or philosophy is to separately keep every individual frame or exposure which is read off the camera, both data and calibration frames.

    Not that I'd be entirely opposed to keeping only the LCC-corrected versions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely LCC correction happens before de-Bayering and the result can be saved in original Bayer format? In that case, there is still the freedom to do whatever raw processing you please, and later re-processing, on the LCC-corrected file. And because each LCC is unique to that setup at that time, because of dust etc., it's not like you can later make a 'better' LCC and apply it to the original raw file.

    Ray
    Ray, excuse the long response but I love discussing scientific imaging. Everyone else can probably take this as being off topic and tune out.

    I think the stringency with which we keep every image file depends on the intended use. Here I would contrast the qualitative and quantitative forms of imaging. If we are doing quantitative imaging, yes, keep everything and never touch the original image data. We even used an "audit trail" function that let you highlight a data value and then see the image location where it originated. I would suggest that this type of rigor is not relevant here, because photography is a form of qualitative imaging.

    Because photographs are made to be viewed, not measured, one can give the cast correction function the freedom to change image data. Of course, the result must look good when we view it. That is easier if image acquisition conditions are tightly controlled when a microscope or telescope is the image forming device. Then we can trust that the LCC is a good model of the image acquisition condition.

    Photographic imaging conditions are not as well controlled. As a result, the LCC is often not a good model of the original acquisition conditions. The situation is made worse because photographers' highly trained visual systems become so very sensitive to slight magenta casts, vertical folds, etc. Therefore, artifacts that are a tiny proportion of the data range may be visible. It takes a pretty good LCC to correct these. Even then, the process is to apply it, see if it works and, if it doesn't, post-process until the final result is acceptable. In other words, the LCC is only part of the workflow by which the final image is made to look "good". That's why I don't keep mine.

    I really like the idea of modeling LCCs for various acquisition conditions, as other responders have suggested. Of course, the models would not be perfect but neither are the real LLCs. With models, you would still apply an LCC, see if it works, and then post-process until acceptable. The difference is that we would not need to make actual LCC images - wonderful.

    Sadly, the modeling process would involve some fairly challenging optical engineering and programming. With any luck, discussions such as this will encourage Phase to allocate enough resources to do the job.

    Peter

  6. #56
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Johnny, I hear you but I'm afraid I agree with Gareth: gear does matter. Now I know that it is not by any means the most important factor, a perfect camera being useless in the hands of a chimp or a human with no aesthetic vision. And indeed I have two photos coming up for auction at Christie's next week which were taken on a Sony RX-1, so I have direct experience of how you don't need a hammer to crack a nut. But I do think that a lot of what we bring to forums is made up of the problems were are having. That doesn't mean we are having problems with everything we own or use, but that we want to share the head -scratching with others when we do have problems!

    So in this case, having made the decision to sell all my MFD gear about a year ago, I have so far managed to sell everything but the IQ180 and, as the price I can expect to achieve continues in slo-mo free fall, have reached the point where it seems almost daft to sell the back.

    If I am going to keep it, I am loathe to recreate the circumstances that led me to want to sell it (partly, no movements, use of a CF, still not quite right LCC corrections, workflow issues at shooting, processing & archiving stages). So I am asking those people here with a lot more tech cam experience than me to help identify which body and lens combination will help me avoid those issues the best.

    So I personally think that the thesis that I am letting the best be the enemy of the good is not quite fair. I just want to learn how to achieve the closest to the best that I can by tapping in to the expertise of others.

    There are a lot of bits of equipment I have that are unproblematic, or great, or tricky but great - and I do pretty detailed write-ups of those too and am always willing to share what I have learned. So it's not all negative!

  7. #57
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Tashley, I certainly understand your dilemma, I was just speaking from my perspective in my (earlier in my career obsession) for the best. I've never said that gear doesn't matter, it does, influenced by personal feelings and opinions, and not necessarily by facts. I was trying to encourage you to enjoy the IQ180 and not look at it's limitations or loss of value. The connection to a camera is indeed personal. My Leica M3 is the finest photographic instrument i've ever held in my hands, but I know and accept it's limitations, but that does not stop me from making memorable images.

  8. #58
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    How I sometimes long for an M3 (or my personal favourite an MP, which I had for a while) but I am not brilliant at developing film and scanning it and there are so few services that do it well here in the UK...

    As for the loss of value in the IQ180 - I absolutely take that on the chin: it was my choice to buy it and I was fully aware that higher MP DSLRs were in the pipeline and would likely screw the used market for MFD. I have no complaints about that at all. I wanted the option of hanging onto it until I could see if the D800 would step into some of its roles, and the cost of that option was not selling before the market took a dip. My choice, no one to blame but me!

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Amazing images can be produced with almost any camera. It all depends on the person behind it! (and the subject in front of it ) There is really not one best camera for everyone. Each one of us has different needs/wants, styles, workflows and tastes! Sure, some of us share some aspects of those elements but overall a camera/system is a VERY personal choice.

    Don't want to deal with CF's and LLC's with the IQ180? Then the only option is to mount it on a Hasselblad V or H camera, a Mamiya/Phase body or a Contax. (you can send the back to a dealer and they can arrange to change the mount)

  10. #60
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Ken, I largely agree: but the unintentional retention of the IQ180 means that it has to find a place in my shooting where it provides a service that other cameras I own can't provide - a very personal and private thing, for sure!

    For my general needs, the D800E is all I need. But I do have a niche requirement for a high quality camera with movements and that's where the Phase might well fit back in, since there's no good wide perspective control lens for the Nikon. However, there's pretty much nothing that an IQ180 does on a DSLR style body that I wouldn't prefer to do on the D800E...

  11. #61
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Tashley,
    You're not alone, I went from the H3D/31 to H4D/40 (two of each) to try to find the right tool, but QC was the issue. Hasselblad released the 35-90 zoom as part of an inclusive kit, just after I bought into their system, but wouldn't honor it for my purchase. I sold the H4D and also took it on the chin, but I wanted out of that camera. Now those and most other MFD including the Leica S can be had for quite cheap. I'm somewhat rambunctious and don't always research every detail, but as our creative needs evolve sometimes the gear doesn't. I'm sure you'll find a great camera with movements. There are so many great choices to pair your IQ180 with. I'm sensing evolution as an artist for me too...

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Yeah, MF DSLR's are still way behind the smaller format dslr's in a LOT of areas. Only the 645D gets close and maybe the Leica S2. Thats it. The Hasselblads are good but are clunkers to lug around out and about. The Mamiya/Phase body gets really mixed reviews.

    I also plan to keep using my Canon DSLR gear for almost everything. The IQ back and tech camera setup (it's on the way) is mainly for a few landscape photo projects I have planned. If I can use it for other stuff great but if not, its ok for now. I might use it for my Architecture photography which sometimes nets me good money. In fact, I might use both during an Architecture shoot since for some shots I need telephoto but for the grand exterior and interior shots (wide angle) the IQ back with a lens like the 23mm HR or the 40 HR (which is on the way) destroys anything a 35mm dslr camera can produce from what I have seen.

    As a single camera solution for architecture and landscape the D800E is excellent. Its really a cut above everything else on the 35mm dslr market. It's not close.
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Ken, I largely agree: but the unintentional retention of the IQ180 means that it has to find a place in my shooting where it provides a service that other cameras I own can't provide - a very personal and private thing, for sure!

    For my general needs, the D800E is all I need. But I do have a niche requirement for a high quality camera with movements and that's where the Phase might well fit back in, since there's no good wide perspective control lens for the Nikon. However, there's pretty much nothing that an IQ180 does on a DSLR style body that I wouldn't prefer to do on the D800E...
    Have there been any tests of the new Samyang 24mm T/S on the D800 yet?

    (Long shot I know!)

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Have there been any tests of the new Samyang 24mm T/S on the D800 yet?

    (Long shot I know!)
    No, but judging from the test on the Canon 5D3 and D800HERE the Samyang does not change the game in regards to the current tilt and shift lens line up. The 24mm TS-E II remains king. By quite a bit. The Samyang is close to the Nikon 24 PC-E in quality but the Nikon is still a touch better.

    I have used a lot of lenses over the years (35mm systems) and the Canon 24mm TS-E II is one of the best lenses ever made (technically speaking).

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    No, but judging from the test on the Canon 5D3 HERE the Samyang does not change the game in regards to the current tilt and shift lens line up. The 24mm TS-E II remains king. By quite a bit.

    I have used a lot of lenses over the years (35mm systems) and the Canon 24mm TS-E II is one of the best lenses ever made (technically speaking).
    Thanks Ken.

    The Canon is a remarkable lens. I used it extensively when I had Canon DSLRs, and now on an Alpa FPS with the IQ180.

    I can't help wondering though whether Tim ( I think Tashley is Tim?) should be thinking carefully about selling off his IQ now for a sensible price (probably around the $20K mark I'm guessing) and waiting for the Canon big megapixel camera. With the new 45 and 90 TS's also supposedly incoming, it might a better long-term plan than hanging onto the IQ.

    Canon simply are not going to sit around and let the D800 mop up for ever. When they do launch, what price an IQ180 then I wonder?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Have there been any tests of the new Samyang 24mm T/S on the D800 yet?

    (Long shot I know!)
    Unfortunately yes - Lensrentals blog - no better than the 24 PCE (in fact worse at wider apertures) just cheaper...

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    (I should add - I'm not necessarily saying the IQ180 will drop in price when the Canon comes out because of the Canon itself, just that because another 6-12 months (I'm guessing) will have passed, inevitably, it will have devalued even more than it has already. The price of used IQ180's sold privately have dropped by around 7.5 - 10k in the last 12 months...)

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Thanks Ken.


    Canon simply are not going to sit around and let the D800 mop up for ever. When they do launch, what price an IQ180 then I wonder?

    Shhh!

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Well, when Canon releases the worthy successor of the 1Ds Mk 3 those who will hurt the most (emotionally speaking mostly ) are those who switched from Canon to Nikon just for the D800E even though they otherwise loved their system.

    I think the top dogs (IQ160/260 and 180/280) are safe, for now.

    Cramming much more than 40MP in a 24x36mm sensor will result in having quite a bit of diffraction from f8 on. Maybe even 5.6. This is of course a big problem if you need a lot of dof. (can you say focus stacking?)

    Also, technical cameras will always offer a degree of control a DSLR will never be able to achieve.

    But, I still think there will be some damage in the MFDigital market with a high res Canon DSLR model. It however better have the DR of the Nikon!
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    I'm homing in on an STC with Rodie hr40 and bits and pieces but have some questions for the experienced...
    1) the Alpa has a much more compact looking lens hood than the cambo compendium but is it really that much smaller and is it any good? People say you really need a good shade with this lens
    2) the cambo wrc400 seems nice in that it has 'natural' rise whereas the STC requires the camera to be turned 90 degrees if you want rise. I use rise a lot more than shift. Is the STC easy to use that way or does it feel strange ergonomically?
    3) if I get the STC/Rodie there's the option of short barrel with t/s mount. But given the attention paid to micro-shimming, doesn't all that extra flexible, moveable stuff make getting the image plane parallel to the sensor more of a problem?
    4) is the Alpa wake-up system as nice as it looks compared to the capture group one I used on my last cambo? It seems very neat...

    Thanks as ever for all advice!
    Tim

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    2) Perhaps you should be considering the SWA instead?
    3) Nope. Nothing flexible when it comes to ALPA gear. In some configurations, there can be as many as 5 separate products between the lens and the back.
    4) It works very well. A lot of money though!

  22. #72
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Tim,
    I have the STC w/ 40hr (sb w/TS), 70hr, 100hr and sk150. And an IQ180 back.

    1) I do not have the Alpa lens hood. I use my hand and/or body to shade. I do, however, almost always shoot with a tripod so I have a spare hand.

    2) I generally don't carry a viewfinder. I have a mocked up wrist strap where the viewfinder normally goes. With this setup I can rotate 90 degrees easily for rise. If you are handholding, you might try rotating the lens so the release is to at the bottom pointing to your right. You can trigger the release with the middle finger of your left hand that is underneath the camera.

    3) The TS mount is designed in a way that makes it quite precise. I used to have the 43xl, which of course was a standard Alpa mount. My results with the 40hr & ts are as good or better. I don't know how or why, but it is very precise.

    4) I like the Alpa wake up system very much. I rarely get errors. I hate the cost, but like the function so much I purchased two release mechanisms so I would not have to unscrew them from the lenses as much!

    I will come out of the closet here and admit I do not always shoot an LCC. If there is snow and or a bunch of blue sky, then almost always. I often shoot one with the 40, but not very often with the 70, 100 or 150. Here is a shot I posted in the tech cam images thread. Sk150 shifted 18mm each way (2-image stitch). No LCC. Hey, I was near the end of a 16 mile ski day. I was tired!

    Dave

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Do you really need a wakeup for the IQ180? What's the gain? I thought that hack was for the P45+.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    2) Perhaps you should be considering the SWA instead?
    3) Nope. Nothing flexible when it comes to ALPA gear. In some configurations, there can be as many as 5 separate products between the lens and the back.
    4) It works very well. A lot of money though!
    Thanks Gerald... I thought of the swa but if the STC is easy in that orientation then I'd still prefer it because of its form factor.the other advice is anvaluable, thank you!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    @ Dave, thank you for the info - and that shot is seriously stunning!

    I will for now at least be only shooting the Rodie 40 - my longer Nikon glass on d800 is usually good enough, it's the wides that need covering better hence the volte face... So I will be stuck with LCC I'm afraid. Just have to be disciplined!

  26. #76
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Do you really need a wakeup for the IQ180? What's the gain? I thought that hack was for the P45+.
    Honestly I don't know! I continued to use a wake up because somewhere at the back of my head the zero latency mode is labelled as glitchy and noisy but if that isn't the case on the 180 then I would very, very happily shoot without! What do people think?

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    My recommendation for the ZERO LCC path with (mostly) affordable lenses:
    IQ 180 + Alpa FPS + Canon EF lens mount
    Canon 17 TSE, Canon 24 TSE, Contax 35 + Mirex 16mm shift adapter,
    HB V 40CFi, 50FLE, 80, 100, 150, 180 ... + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter
    Chris

  28. #78
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Do you really need a wakeup for the IQ180? What's the gain? I thought that hack was for the P45+.
    You don't have to but I do primarily to make the battery last longer. If I'm backpacking for a few days I need my batteries to last. So I have not used zero latency since I first got the back two years ago. Perhaps I should try it again though; there have been several firmware updates since then...

    I'm not thrilled with the shoot-cock-shoot solution. I tend to bump the tripod or at least send vibrations everywhere when rushing to do that in 4 seconds. Sometimes the winding mechanism is not so easy to reach.

    A little more about shooting orientation for rise: I have the grip but I generally do not have it attached (again, I don't handhold much). The pick below shows my strap and how it is oriented. You can imagine the grip attatched to the bottom left side of the STC in this pic. It provides a nice flat base for your left hand. Right hand goes through the strap. With the lens in the "normal" orientation, the release is at the bottom, parallel to the grip. Very close to the fingers of your left hand.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/463015-post236.html

    Dave
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  29. #79
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    My recommendation for the ZERO LCC path with (mostly) affordable lenses:
    IQ 180 + Alpa FPS + Canon EF lens mount
    Canon 17 TSE, Canon 24 TSE, Contax 35 + Mirex 16mm shift adapter,
    HB V 40CFi, 50FLE, 80, 100, 150, 180 ... + Mirex 16mm tilt/shift adapter
    Chris
    Can the Canon 24 really hold up to an IQ180? It seems intuitively more likely that a Rodie is going to do much, much better, admittedly at the cost of having to do LCCs...

  30. #80
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    You don't have to but I do primarily to make the battery last longer. If I'm backpacking for a few days I need my batteries to last. So I have not used zero latency since I first got the back two years ago. Perhaps I should try it again though; there have been several firmware updates since then...

    I'm not thrilled with the shoot-cock-shoot solution. I tend to bump the tripod or at least send vibrations everywhere when rushing to do that in 4 seconds. Sometimes the winding mechanism is not so easy to reach.

    A little more about shooting orientation for rise: I have the grip but I generally do not have it attached (again, I don't handhold much). The pick below shows my strap and how it is oriented. You can imagine the grip attatched to the bottom left side of the STC in this pic. It provides a nice flat base for your left hand. Right hand goes through the strap. With the lens in the "normal" orientation, the release is at the bottom, parallel to the grip. Very close to the fingers of your left hand.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/463015-post236.html

    Dave
    Thanks Dave - it does sound a bit awkward having to shoot with the left hand on the shutter but I guess it is what it is... good tip to live without the handle, at least at first: I also shoot nearly always with a tripod...

  31. #81
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Actually I like it a lot better. I never felt it was very easy to "squeeze" the shutter on a tech camera; the release position is just awkward for me. Once I got used to the left hand doing the work, it felt more natural.

    Dave
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Can the Canon 24 really hold up to an IQ180? It seems intuitively more likely that a Rodie is going to do much, much better, admittedly at the cost of having to do LCCs...
    I think it was gerald.d that posted a very nice comparison between Digaron-S 23mm and Canon 24 TS-E on an Alpa FPS. At f/8 the Digaron-S blows it away, still better at f/13 (or was it f/11) but then the Canon is quite close and diffraction is still not too bad. If one thinks it's good enough is personal. I think having great sharpness at f/8 is overkill, as f/11 is my preferred shooting aperture for MF, or else DoF becomes a bit too difficult to work with in most situations I think.

    edit: here's the link: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ts-e-hcam.html

    Anyway 24mm is a lot wider than 40mm, probably not what you are after. For the 40 you'd look at HB V 40CFi it the proposed FPS system, I have no idea of how that lens will perform, but typically retrofocus SLR-type of lenses are considerably weaker than tech cam lenses. They are often also rather expensive...

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    The 40mm HR is the best lens I have ever used, in any format. It is not close. If the 23mm HR is as good or at least close to being as good then it should blow away any extreme wide angle ever made.

    I have the 24 TS-E II and it works best at f11. Its good in the center at all f stops but in the borders and edges (on a 24x36mm sensor!) and when shifting, it only gets really good at f11. At f16 diffraction has set in.

    The 40mm HR is stunning at all f stops and its only diffraction limited..

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    The 40mm HR is the best lens I have ever used, in any format. It is not close. If the 23mm HR is as good or at least close to being as good then it should blow away any extreme wide angle ever made.

    I have the 24 TS-E II and it works best at f11. Its good in the center at all f stops but in the borders and edges (on a 24x36mm sensor!) and when shifting, it only gets really good at f11. At f16 diffraction has set in.

    The 40mm HR is stunning at all f stops and its only diffraction limited..
    The 23HR is, if anything, better than the 40HR regarding sharpness and bite. But of course with a smaller image circle (see comparison of tech camera image circles here).

    You will need to use a touch of distortion correction if you want perfect geometry, but given the incredibly wide FOV this is not unexpected.
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    2) the cambo wrc400 seems nice in that it has 'natural' rise whereas the STC requires the camera to be turned 90 degrees if you want rise. I use rise a lot more than shift. Is the STC easy to use that way or does it feel strange ergonomically?
    With two mounting blocks the Cambo STC will mount vertically or horizontally with the same ease.

    As seen here:
    https://vimeo.com/63916039
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    The Rodie 28mm is extremely sharp and maybe the sharpest lens I used with my Tech cam was the SK 60 XL. Frankly if it was me starting back up I would not get the 23 as it has no movements really 2mm maybe. The 28mm you get about 7mm so you could stitch a little if needed . Than I would get the 40mm, 70mm and 120.

    BTW I always shot Zero latency without any issues. I would just make it a habit to turn the back off after a bit. The IQ's power up pretty quick anyway so it was never a problem. I hate those one shot cables. Zero you just shoot than i would open the shutter 2 stops and nail a LCC. You get so fast at it after awhile you can really become very good at it and never feel like your missing a shot. I never did actually
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The Rodie 28mm is extremely sharp and maybe the sharpest lens I used with my Tech cam was the SK 60 XL. Frankly if it was me starting back up I would not get the 23 as it has no movements really 2mm maybe. The 28mm you get about 7mm so you could stitch a little if needed . Than I would get the 40mm, 70mm and 120.
    With a Full Frame sensor (e.g. IQ260) the 23 has no meaningful shift (like you said, 2mm maybe).

    But with an IQ140 you have 10-12mm of shift.
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Another vote for the RS 40HRW SB17! I use it with an IQ180, the tilt adapter, and an Alpa STC for landscape photography on a tripod. The combination produces better results than any other camera I have used in 40 years (including 4x5). The Alpa is wonderful in its simplicity, symmetry, speed, and precision. For my work, shifts less than about 15mm rarely require an LCC, but they are easy to do when necessary. The ability to shift the back without moving the lens leads to seamless stitching. Being able to mount the 17TS on either the lens side or back side, as well as rotate the back, camera and lens independently in 90 degree increments leads to wide range of combinations that cover all my needs. I use the camera with two small tripod plates and without grips. The RS 70HR SB17 seems to be equally outstanding. It will be interesting to see what you select and if it meets your high standards. Good luck.

  39. #89
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Do you really need a wakeup for the IQ180? What's the gain? I thought that hack was for the P45+.
    If you are diligent about turning off the IQ back between a sequence of shots then thei answer is no. However, for the very best results without fear of heat noise accumulation then yes. It's easy to forget to turn off the back and it can get warm - normally when you least want it to. I use the auto off feature anyway as a backup.

    Like Dave, I have two Alpa releases to avoid constantly swapping them between lenses. Expensive. Actually, bloody expensive, but they work better than the KG releases and are worth it just for the lack of miss synch frustrations.

    Rotating the STC for rise/fall is no bother especially if you have the appropriate sized tripod plates on the bottom/grip sides. Also, rotating the lens mount is simple since it square and you align it easily for best access to the shutter controls and visibility.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I think it was gerald.d that posted a very nice comparison between Digaron-S 23mm and Canon 24 TS-E on an Alpa FPS. At f/8 the Digaron-S blows it away, still better at f/13 (or was it f/11) but then the Canon is quite close and diffraction is still not too bad. If one thinks it's good enough is personal. I think having great sharpness at f/8 is overkill, as f/11 is my preferred shooting aperture for MF, or else DoF becomes a bit too difficult to work with in most situations I think.

    edit: here's the link: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ts-e-hcam.html

    Anyway 24mm is a lot wider than 40mm, probably not what you are after. For the 40 you'd look at HB V 40CFi it the proposed FPS system, I have no idea of how that lens will perform, but typically retrofocus SLR-type of lenses are considerably weaker than tech cam lenses. They are often also rather expensive...
    Here's the latter test -

    Copyright Gerald Donovan 2013. All rights reserved.

    And the discussion over at LuLa -

    Canon 24TSE-II vs Rodenstock 23HR

    Regards,

    Gerald.

  41. #91
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    This place is humming with great information - what an amazing resource, thank you to all, very much.

    I think I am going to follow this strategy so as to avoid spending money up front that I will later regret:
    Buy an STC with no wake up, no grips, no shade, and a long barrel Rodie 40 which I can later convert if needed (trying to find out what that costs and how long it takes!) should I discover that the lower DOF on this lens than I am used to with the Sk35XL matters. I hear that the Rodie's need to be shot at F8 thru 11 whereas I was comfortable with the SK at F16 if needed.

    So this setup should let me finally get the results from the IQ180 that I always wanted. Then, quite scarily, it will all be down to me. No excuses to hide behind and no more blaming the gear not the workman!

    I am getting so fussy - turning into an 'old woman' - today I was looking at some shots I made on an M8 with 90mm Macro Elmar and for the first time I noticed a subtle colour shift in the sky. Where will it all end?


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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    The grip on the stc is definitely superfluous for tripod work. I have it but I wouldn't bother next time.

    You seem to have a workable plan Tim.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    You will be shocked when you find out the upgrade cost for the 40HR to the 40HR SB17 if it is anything like what I paid. You may want to bite the bullet up front. I find tilt to be very useful on this lens and use Live View to nail focus. My bet is that the RS will be just as good as the SK at f16, but you will prefer shooting it at f8-13, so all the more reason for tilt. Also, I use the Lee WA lens hood system on all my lenses with great satisfaction. Happy shopping.

  44. #94
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I hear that the Rodie's need to be shot at F8 thru 11 whereas I was comfortable with the SK at F16 if needed.
    Tim,
    It's important to remember the context of these statements. As Steve mentioned, the Rodie won't be any worse than the SK at f/16. It is just that the Rodie noticeably better at f/8 - f/11 because, well, it's a wee-bit sharper.

    Diffraction is an equal opportunity destroyer; it doesn't affect the Rodie any worse than the SK (assuming equal formats).

    Dave
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  45. #95
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I am getting so fussy - turning into an 'old woman' - today I was looking at some shots I made on an M8 with 90mm Macro Elmar and for the first time I noticed a subtle colour shift in the sky. Where will it all end?

    Tim,
    Make a print, step away from the computer, turn on some good lights and enjoy!

    Dave
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    ...and a long barrel Rodie 40 which I can later convert if needed (trying to find out what that costs and how long it takes!)
    I agree bite the bullet and buy an SB from the get go. You then are free to lock it to a 34mm adapter and carry on as if it were LB, or... put it on a 34mm TS adapter or... two 17mm TS adapters for 2 directions, or... use it with an FPS. (no LB lenses can be used on an FPS)

    All that is possible with an SB, but not without. Yes you have to buy a 34mm adapter, but if you switch and then have to pay the not-so-cheap conversion costs plus the 34mm adapter, you'll be kicking yourself.

  47. #97
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    OK, good advice everyone, thank you. Actually I saved so much by discovering that there's no strict need for wake up, grips or shade that I might as well go for the SB and TS up front. I also suspect that if I later decide to sell, this will be the less illiquid end of the MF used market...

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Definitely get the lens in the SB version from the get-go. Better to have and not need than need and not have. It's the 17mm T/S mount that it uses, not the 34mm. The only caveat I would have is that, for my taste, on a chip as large as the IQ180, the 40 just doesn't feel wide enough for landscape shooting. Stitching is always an option of course. IF S/K are really bringing out a new 35mm that will behave better with large microlensed sensors, then - as long as it's not years away - that may just be worth waiting for.

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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    Just throwing the Cambo RC400 out there one more time. Compared to the STC it is lighter, smaller, has more movement, is less expensive, has less expensive accessories, and you can get a TS version of the 40HR which doesn't require a separate TS adapter.
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  50. #100
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    Re: Just thinking of a volte face

    I might be wrong but the 40 HR SB works with 17 t/s mount but not the 34 if focusing to infinity is needed.
    Philip

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