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Thread: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

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    Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    So I got this lens recently in R-mount. Originally had the previous version on order, and my dealer ended up getting me this instead - great guy BTW.

    I cannot compare lens performance to the non-ASPH version, but this lens is super sharp, and super tiny. The Big Booty extension box is not the most ergonomic, but no choice there.

    Today, I just got a bonus when I found out the IC on this thing is 150mm The previous version I believe is 110mm.

    Just looking at how much is usable, but this is just fantastic!

    Here's the excerpt from SK site:
    "This is a completely redesigned 120mm f/5.6 Digitar lens in a Copal #0 Shutter. It will stand up to the performance demands of today's high resolution digital backs, allowing you to bring the swings and tilts of traditional large format photography into the digital arena. The implementation of Aspherical Lens technology makes this lens extremely versatile with an incredible 150mm image circle"

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    It looks like a great addition to the current S/K lens line-up. As mentioned elsewhere however, there's a trade-off between resolution and IC (asph) vs. illumination and distortion (non-asph).

    The IC is pretty amazing - 153mm at infinity I think - since the lens design is the same as the DSLR PC version. Oddly, Alpa have it listed as 110mm in their report and 120mm on their website.

    Whilst impressive, it's a bit of a moot point since I don't think any of the current generation of technical cameras can get anywhere close to using it all - which makes the 120N at $1k less, with less illumination fall-off and distortion, still a hugely attractive alternative.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    No so moot. On the Arca, I took some shots with the sliding back - 15mm on the camera + 25mm on the back on either side. So total of 40mm on each side. I was able to shift up/down +/- 20mm and do the same thing. No real color cast to speak of. Will post something as soon as I get a chance.
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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    The IC is pretty amazing - 153mm at infinity I think - since the lens design is the same as the DSLR PC version. Oddly, Alpa have it listed as 110mm in their report and 120mm on their website.
    If it's not just a typo it may be that the lens is mount-limited on an Alpa.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    Whilst impressive, it's a bit of a moot point since I don't think any of the current generation of technical cameras can get anywhere close to using it all - which makes the 120N at $1k less, with less illumination fall-off and distortion, still a hugely attractive alternative.
    I've added the 120 ASPH to our visualizer.

    https://www.digitaltransitions.com/p...ra-visualizers

    As you can see from our Arca Swiss page the max rise on an RL3Di is 40mm with independent +/-20mm of shift.

    That means a 6-shot stitch could be done that uses the entire height of the image circle.

    The very large Arca mount should provide more than enough room to accommodate such a massive image circle. But I will have to double check with Arca to be sure.

    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    That's a funky piece of software Doug. However I was thinking more of using the classic panoramic (horizontal) stitch across as much of the 153mm diameter of the IC rather than just being able to reach the edge of the image circle.

    So, for the landscape shooter's horizontal stitch using a 54 x 40 sensor:

    1. With the sensor starting off in landscape orientation, it would have to be shifted approx. 47mm L/R to make use of the greatest part of the 153mm diameter image circle. The resultant image ratio would be (almost) 4:1.

    2. With the sensor starting off in portrait orientation, it would need to be shifted approx. 51.5mm L/R to make use of the greatest part of the 153mm diameter image circle. The resultant image ratio would be (almost) the 'classic' panoramic 3:1.

    From what Jagsiva has written it looks like the Arca RM3d/i plus a sliding back could get you 40mm (25mm + 15mm) of shift - close but not enough. The RL3D + sliding back would get you there - i.e. 40mm + 25mm. However you would have to perform some gymnastics with the camera since the 40mm of movement is only in one direction (I assume the camera can be mounted on its side and the sliding back mounted in the same orientation as the 40mm of travel?) The Alpa XY has 45mm of rise, so if the camera was on it's side it might get you close, but this would depend on any cropping of the IC by the mount's 'throat' as Doug points out.The A/S ML2 with sliding back looks like the easiest option i.e. 35mm (on camera) + 25mm (on the sliding back) - assuming no mechanical cropping of the IC.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    It looks like a 100 and a 120 ASPH

    Jos. Schneider Optische Werke Kreuznach: Apo-Digitar

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    The Schneider website linked above claims about 120mm of image circle -- Is it 120mm or 150mm?

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by kzphoto View Post
    The Schneider website linked above claims about 120mm of image circle -- Is it 120mm or 150mm?
    I'm confused about this too. All their graphs are based on a 120mm image circle.

    http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/up..._56_120_D2.PDF

    Dave
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    davechewphotography.com

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I'm confused about this too. All their graphs are based on a 120mm image circle.

    http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/up..._56_120_D2.PDF

    Dave
    But here shows 150mm image circle: digitaltransitions.com/images/upload/dep/Image_Circle_Digitar_2012.pdf

    I'm waiting to hear back from the head of the photographic applications division at Schneider. That should clear it up 100%...
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    I've confirmed for 100% sure directly from Schneider's Photo Product Manager that the specification for the 120 ASPH is an image circle of 150mm (technically 153mm as specified on the full specification sheet).

    Two notable caveats:
    - Schneider is well known to be quite liberal in their ascertainment of the image circle, generally using illumination rather than sharpness as the guide. So the "usable image circle" is likely to be a good bit less.
    - The mechanical mounting of the lens (which simultaneously is relatively long and has a huge image circle - leading to a propensity for barrel vignetting) by the various tech camera manufactures will surely impact such a large image circle. The Arca R has the widest mounting throat in this regard and I would expect it to perform well in this regard, but I've not had the chance to work with this lens on any platform.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I've confirmed for 100% sure directly from Schneider's Photo Product Manager that the specification for the 120 ASPH is an image circle of 150mm (technically 153mm as specified on the full specification sheet).

    Two notable caveats:
    - Schneider is well known to be quite liberal in their ascertainment of the image circle, generally using illumination rather than sharpness as the guide. So the "usable image circle" is likely to be a good bit less.
    - The mechanical mounting of the lens (which simultaneously is relatively long and has a huge image circle - leading to a propensity for barrel vignetting) by the various tech camera manufactures will surely impact such a large image circle. The Arca R has the widest mounting throat in this regard and I would expect it to perform well in this regard, but I've not had the chance to work with this lens on any platform.
    Thanks for the update Doug! Looks like this one might be on my short list for a tech cam / 6x9.

    To clarify is this a newer design than the other APO digitar lenses in the Schneider line up?

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by kzphoto View Post
    Thanks for the update Doug! Looks like this one might be on my short list for a tech cam / 6x9.

    To clarify is this a newer design than the other APO digitar lenses in the Schneider line up?
    Yes this is a newer design, but it's not alone, there are both new and old designs in the line.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Anyone have a photograph of the lens? My usual sources (b&H, adorama, schneider website) haven't turned up much. Or a brochure for the 100/120 lenses?

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by kzphoto View Post
    Anyone have a photograph of the lens? My usual sources (b&H, adorama, schneider website) haven't turned up much. Or a brochure for the 100/120 lenses?
    Do you mean this lens? Mine is Alpa version, though.

    Michael

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Repeating a post in another thread since that I didn't yet get an answer to. Looking at Mike's pictures there has got me really wanting to make a decision on this now!

    -

    I was going to make a new thread with this question, but looking at this one I think it probably makes sense to add it onto here.

    I'm looking at getting a 120mm lens to (famous last words coming up...) complete my lens collection for my Alpas.

    Anyone care to share thoughts on comparison between the Schneider discussed above, and the Schneider PC-TS 120mm in Mamiya mount?

    Regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by mike6272 View Post
    Do you mean this lens? Mine is Alpa version, though.

    Michael
    I have that same gear as you Mike: Lens, IQ180, FPS, Cube.
    but just the straight 17mm spacer, not the TS version - that's the 17mm TS or the ? 6mm one?

    is there some advantage to using the FPS for longer lenses I'm unaware of? So far I've been using mine with the 50mm HR, and like that combo. great to be able to keep shooting without taking your eye away.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Repeating a post in another thread since that I didn't yet get an answer to. Looking at Mike's pictures there has got me really wanting to make a decision on this now!
    ........
    Anyone care to share thoughts on comparison between the Schneider discussed above, and the Schneider PC-TS 120mm in Mamiya mount?
    Gerald, I believe they are optically the same lens, the Mamiya having the additional tilt/swing hardware built into the mount. This was also mentioned on some other thread here, but I can't find it now.....

    Cheers, -Peter
    Alpa TC STC | IQ140 | 24XL 35XL 120N-ASPH
    www.peterlomdahl.com

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Gerald, I believe they are optically the same lens, the Mamiya having the additional tilt/swing hardware built into the mount. This was also mentioned on some other thread here, but I can't find it now.....

    Cheers, -Peter
    Thanks Peter.

    I had a vague recollection of it being discussed previously as well, but also wasn't able to find the thread.

    Hmm. Tough decision as to which one to get now!

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Yes, they are the same lens - with the same 153mm image circle (at infinity). Because the PC-TS Apo-Digitar 5.6/120 HM Aspheric 'only' has 12mm of shift available there's a mechanical limit to how much of this large image circle you can use. This isn't such an issue with the 'straight' Alpa lens - though as others have pointed out, the throat dimensions of Alpa's mount will restrict just how much of the outer limits of the image circle you will be able to get to - but it will be way more than 12mm when on a Max / STC etc. In Alpa's Report #2 it states the image circle of the A/D 5.6/120 Aspheric as being 110mm @ F11 - so that may offer a clue to the degree of access the Alpa mount affords. Or it could just be a typo. One advantage of the PC-TS version is the 8 degrees of tilt it has built in. Only 5 or 6 degrees is available with the Alpa 34mm T/S adapters (that said, can you combine two 5 degree ones and get 10 degrees? Not sure). With a 120mm lens, 5 or 6 degrees should really be regarded as a working minimum.

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    Re: Some interesting points on the Schneider 120N Aspherical -

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    I have that same gear as you Mike: Lens, IQ180, FPS, Cube.
    but just the straight 17mm spacer, not the TS version - that's the 17mm TS or the ? 6mm one?

    is there some advantage to using the FPS for longer lenses I'm unaware of? So far I've been using mine with the 50mm HR, and like that combo. great to be able to keep shooting without taking your eye away.
    Yes, it is the 17mm TS for FPS. I think(IMHO) the best advantage is to use higher shutter speed than "normal" tech camera without the need of ND under a sunny day and wide-open aperture for a paper-thin DOF.

    Regards

    Michael

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