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How Leica reinvented MFD...or not

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
The question is: Did they reinvent MF or or professional DSLR? It's a hybrid in my view, and I wouldn't be surprised if more will follow from other manufacturers along the same lines. The Pentax isn't so far off.
 

6x6

Member
Very interesting article. Forbes being a deliberate choice to aim at a specific demographic.

StS: There are no industry-wide figures, but we think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands. We are not yet the market leader (I estimate Phase One to have 40-45% market share), but we already have 20% share – and this is only after 3 years after introduction.
I found the above sales figures / market share interesting. It's not normally published and his numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are estimates. However Leica seems to be doing very well, considering the limited life span of the product. If they did a trade in program like Hassy or Phase I'm sure their market share would rise even faster.

I'm very tempted by their camera, especially from a lens point of view. If only they used 3/4 format instead of 2/3. Thats the deal breaker for me. If Phase built a similar camera with a 40mp / 60mp 3/4 format sensor I would be trading in my P40+ in a heart beat. Especially if the LS lenses went on it. As a portrait / location camera that would be very hard to beat.
 

Ken_R

New member
"In today’s professional market, photojournalists are a rare breed, and they are no longer as well paid as in previous generations."

Wow, They might be a "rare breed" in the Leica market but there are probably more photojournalists today than ever. It's just that they have not purchased Leicas ever since the Nikon F came out! But let's fast forward to the digital age. Canon and Nikon are and have been king since then. Leica is just a luxury item for rich amateurs even though its also a tool for some professionals and artists.

There is a reason Phase One dominates the Medium Format market. Most users in that market demand high performance, reliability (both software and hardware) and versatility (open systems). Phase One is more like a high performance film that can be used in a variety of cameras (tech to phase one or hasselblad dslr's).

The Leica S is a great system though. The lenses are amazing but its a camera looking for a sensor. Its great for people but for a LOT of other things its not the best. Leica needs to figure out how to lead the market in sensor design / quality. Put a 60MP CMOS sensor in that camera with live view and trust me, sales will go through the roof compared to what they are now.
 

craigrudlin

New member
I agree with most of what Ken R says, except perhaps his implication that the S is not good for subjects beyond people. I find it excellent for macros, landscapes, abstracts, etc. I do agree with his statement about the sensor and the limitations regarding ISO, frames per second, etc. However, as a fine art photographer, one adapts, and the lenses are amazing. Please see the section of my website called galleries->portfolio and in particular the prison, old trucks, section where the images are with the S.
Rudlin Fine Art
thanks
 

RVB

Member
S-League

The link above shows a lot of pro work,the camera is very capable and has amazing lenses,the body has great ergonomic's and weather sealing,AF on the S is even better than the S2,Leica are obviously doing well with this camera and the Lenses are mostly on back order,I waited a year for a 120CS...
 

RVB

Member
"In today’s professional market, photojournalists are a rare breed, and they are no longer as well paid as in previous generations."

Wow, They might be a "rare breed" in the Leica market but there are probably more photojournalists today than ever. It's just that they have not purchased Leicas ever since the Nikon F came out! But let's fast forward to the digital age. Canon and Nikon are and have been king since then. Leica is just a luxury item for rich amateurs even though its also a tool for some professionals and artists.

There is a reason Phase One dominates the Medium Format market. Most users in that market demand high performance, reliability (both software and hardware) and versatility (open systems). Phase One is more like a high performance film that can be used in a variety of cameras (tech to phase one or hasselblad dslr's).

The Leica S is a great system though. The lenses are amazing but its a camera looking for a sensor. Its great for people but for a LOT of other things its not the best. Leica needs to figure out how to lead the market in sensor design / quality. Put a 60MP CMOS sensor in that camera with live view and trust me, sales will go through the roof compared to what they are now.
i think CMOS is on the card's,I expect it to be in the next body,CMOSIS CMOSIS - Image Sensors - CMOSIS already have sensor's with a density that would make the next S over 70mp..
 
D

Deleted member 7792

Guest
"In today’s professional market, photojournalists are a rare breed, and they are no longer as well paid as in previous generations."

Wow, They might be a "rare breed" in the Leica market but there are probably more photojournalists today than ever.
Free lancers and paparazzi perhaps, but the number of professional photojournalists who make a living from that profession has dramatically decreased with the demise of newspapers, news bureaus, and magazines. Online content, often obtained at very low cost (or free), has driven many out of the profession.

Leica is just a luxury item for rich amateurs even though its also a tool for some professionals and artists.
The price of a Leica S plus two lenses is about the same price as a Phase One digital back with no camera or lenses attached. Your statement doesn't make sense.

There is a reason Phase One dominates the Medium Format market. Most users in that market demand high performance, reliability (both software and hardware) and versatility (open systems). Phase One is more like a high performance film that can be used in a variety of cameras (tech to phase one or hasselblad dslr's).
Since September 2010, I've owned and shot with a Hasselblad H4D-50, Phase One 645DF/IQ180, Leica S2 and now a Leica S. While the Phase One IQ-series backs, and the IQ180 in particular, are the best imaging devices I've ever used, the Phase One 645DF camera was the least reliable (frequent lock-ups, poor autofocus, etc.), most difficult to configure, and had the poorest ergonomics of the lot. My guess is that you haven't owned or used any of these cameras and your opinion is based on no first-hand experience.

The Leica S is a great system though. The lenses are amazing but its a camera looking for a sensor. Its great for people but for a LOT of other things its not the best. Leica needs to figure out how to lead the market in sensor design / quality. Put a 60MP CMOS sensor in that camera with live view and trust me, sales will go through the roof compared to what they are now.
I would encourage you to do some research on how the Leica S is being used. It may not be the right camera for sports, wildlife or action photography, but I can assure you that it's ideal for more than shooting portraits and fashion. The lenses are superb and the image quality rivals any of the medium format systems I've owned and used, bar none. The IQ180 only beats it on resolution.

Joe
 

Ken_R

New member
I agree the 645DF bodies leave a LOT to be desired. The Mamiya "ghost" is still dragging it down in some aspects. Such is life when having to work with an inherited system from the film era. Phase has worked on it quite a bit it seems though.

I know a lot of folks that are happy with their Hasselblad H(insert number)D series of cameras. It's a very good integrated solution. But I do believe the Leica S system is better overall. I would choose it over the Hasselblad's, specially the 40's, If I was looking for a Camera to work outside the studio. The multishots do offer some extra capability and maybe the 60 for studio work though.

I did not say that the Leica S system is bad for everything other than People but that it is not the absolute best for Landscape and Architecture. Of course amazing images can be produced with it in almost any circumstance, just like with many other cameras. But the lower resolution and lack of tilt shift lenses do turn quite a bit of potential buyers into a Phase One back and tech camera solution.

Also, no camera exists in a vacuum, the D800E does exist. It is fact that it has slayed a lot of MF digital sales.

At the price point of the Leica S2, 37.5 MP makes it a tougher sell than it deserves to be.
 
D

Deleted member 7792

Guest
Also, no camera exists in a vacuum, the D800E does exist. It is fact that it has slayed a lot of MF digital sales.
Yep, been there and done that, too. The available lenses for the D800E leave a lot to be desired. Read Tim Ashley's blog for more details. I recently sold my entire Nikon D800E kit, partly due to my frustration in achieving outstanding image quality with either Nikon or Zeiss lenses.

At the price point of the Leica S2, 37.5 MP makes it a tougher sell than it deserves to be.
With any camera, you're buying into a system. The Leica S-system, with camera and lenses beats any alternative system I've tried. If Phase One introduces a camera that is as revolutionary as its IQ1XX and IQ2XX digital backs, their system (with Schneider lenses) will be highly competitive, but at an even higher price point.

Joe
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Also, no camera exists in a vacuum, the D800E does exist. It is fact that it has slayed a lot of MF digital sales.
I don't think there is any actual data.

I think the photographer thinking of an S2 system, is not really in the same market. I think the D800 has had an impact with Pentax 645D sales as they are far closer in price. But if you are going to drop $20K+, you are not really thinking of a $3K as being in the running. I would imagine that the other MFD manufacturers, especially Hasselblad, are the real competition.

I have heard lots of folks "claim" they did not enter MFD because of the D800, but those folks probably would not have gone into the MFD market anyway.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I would likes to see a Monochrom S, Leica SM?
I would like a monochrome camera with live view.

As impressive the S files are, I think the pricing is not great.

However....a Leica SM would start me thinking about saving up some serious cash. :)
 

RVB

Member
I would like a monochrome camera with live view.

As impressive the S files are, I think the pricing is not great.

However....a Leica SM would start me thinking about saving up some serious cash. :)
It would be nice if it was a little cheaper but as we know Leica is a small company and the S is still relatively new with high R&D costs and sells in small number's,yet it is not much more than a IQ140 or H4D40 and it give's you access to amazing lenses.. if the next S (or SM) has 60-70mp it will change the vale perception and a lot more people would be willing to pay the price,livbe view will add to the allure.. I think they are learning the in's n out's of CMOS now with the M and we will have a CMOS S in a year or two..
 

Shashin

Well-known member
It would be nice if it was a little cheaper but as we know Leica is a small company and the S is still relatively new with high R&D costs and sells in small number's,yet it is not much more than a IQ140 or H4D40 and it give's you access to amazing lenses.. if the next S (or SM) has 60-70mp it will change the vale perception and a lot more people would be willing to pay the price,livbe view will add to the allure.. I think they are learning the in's n out's of CMOS now with the M and we will have a CMOS S in a year or two..
But it is a lot more than a Pentax 645D.
 

doug

Well-known member
As does the Pentax 645D and still for less...
Some of the Pentax lenses are great, some were considered great 20 years ago (but not now), and only a few were actually designed for the 645D. What non-Pentax lenses can you use on the 645D?
 
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