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Thread: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

  1. #51
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    By the way if anyone would like to expand this table to include the other systems like Sinar et al or to expand its level of detail (though I warn you as soon as you leave the "overview" level the complexity can overwhelm concise table based summaries) I'd be glad to send that person the source document as an easier starting point. A link acknowledging the original table would be nice but not required.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    In medicine, conflict of interest is extremely important compared to most industries.
    This discussion is a good example. It is a gray zone and you just have to be careful how you will interpret it.
    For new members who want to get into tech camera, please try each systems first before you make a decision.
    Each of them have their own advantages & disadvantages.
    Currently, I have both Cambo (WRS AE) and Alpa (SWA) which I've just acquired. I can't comment about the Arca RM3Di which is no doubt a fantastic camera. I eliminated it for simplicity (not functionality or accuracy) point of view.
    If you want the camera you will immediately fall in love with, it would be Alpa. To me, it likes a "Porsche" of tech cam.
    Cambo, likes "Lexus", is more cost effective. You pay less for everything and get what you pay for. I thought it was very well made until I've got the Alpa.
    Craftsmanship and handling are something you can't measure by the specification. I am happy with both systems but fall in love with Alpa.
    At the end, it will be your job to master them.

    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 26th May 2013 at 14:45.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I agree with Pramote regarding Alpa but I fully admit that I am absolutely and completely biased
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Doug, thanks for posting the info, certainly find the lens specs, especially weights, filter threads etc. very useful.

    A general comment, I think it is unfair to characterize a dealer as biased for favouring the products they carry. This is what they are here for. I find the level of information provided by Doug and others like him regarding the products they sell to be very valuable. I'm sure other dealers carrying other products are welcome to put out helpful info regarding their products as well. In any case, Doug has always been open about the fact that he is a dealer.

    In addition, the product/brand agnostic information that Doug has posted here including various calculators, image circle info, C1 tips etc., should be appreciated. Not sure what the witch hunt is about, and I would hate to see otherwise mature, very talented photographers, diminish the intent of this post.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Doug

    Just a quick correction for you mate.
    The 120mm Schneider is listed on your site with a 110mm image circle. Schneider list is with a 120mm circle. Also their list for the filter thread is 46mm not 40.5mm.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Dogs857; 26th May 2013 at 21:40.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

    Jeff, but my friends call me Dogs

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Doug, thanks for posting the info, certainly find the lens specs, especially weights, filter threads etc. very useful.

    A general comment, I think it is unfair to characterize a dealer as biased for favouring the products they carry. This is what they are here for. I find the level of information provided by Doug and others like him regarding the products they sell to be very valuable. I'm sure other dealers carrying other products are welcome to put out helpful info regarding their products as well. In any case, Doug has always been open about the fact that he is a dealer.

    In addition, the product/brand agnostic information that Doug has posted here including various calculators, image circle info, C1 tips etc., should be appreciated. Not sure what the witch hunt is about, and I would hate to see otherwise mature, very talented photographers, diminish the intent of this post.
    Sorry, but I'm not going to sit back and let accusations of a "witch hunt" just stand without a response.

    People need to read the thread from the start.

    Doug claimed this for what he posted - "As far as I'm aware this is the only place one can find the weight, length, width, and movements of Cambo, Arca, and Alpa tech cameras in one place".

    Additionally, on the page itself, right after the introduction to the company, he states this as an opener (and this is of critical importance to the argument) - "This page is provided to help guide our customers early in their process of selecting the body and lenses that best match their needs and budget."

    He listed both the Max and the XY as not being capable of back-only movements.

    It is NOT a witch hunt to point out a factual error.

    When the person who has made that error initially refuses to correct it, coming out with some ridiculous assertion that you can't include accessories (even those included with the camera when you purchase it) when assessing the functionality of a camera, then frankly, I think I have every right to call him out on it.

    Yes. He is a dealer for Cambo and Arca.

    Yes. We of course should expect some bias in some circumstances.

    But no. We should NOT expect some bias when he is purporting to present a purely objective, balanced - and hence presumably unbiased - assessment of the functionality of different cameras on the market.

    And no. It is NOT OK to just sit back and accept it when he misrepresents a product that he does not sell, and having had the error pointed out to him, refuses to correct it.

    With regards to the product agnostic information, I agree with you 100%. And if you were to look through the thread on his visualisation tool, you'll see that I was pretty vocal in my support of it, and suggested additional thoughts as to how it could be enhanced.

    Look.

    Like Graham, I too have spent some time in technical sales. I was a tech pre-sales guy for a software company for a good portion of my career, and trust me on this - not only do I know every sales trick in the book, I also fully understand multiple sales processes from both vendor and customer perspectives.

    One of the things you look to do in any sales process is eliminate the competition as early as you can. Particularly the ones that you have often lost to in the past.

    The oldest trick in the book is to feel the customer's pain and recognise what a confusing, complicated - not to mention, expensive - decision he has to make. In fact, part of your job as a salesman is to make the decision process appear even more complicated than it is. You want the customer out of their comfort zone. That way, they need you to guide them.

    But don't worry Mr Customer - we're here to help you with that. Look - we've put a great little tool together that will simplify things for you. Have a look through it, then come back to us when you need some more guidance.

    Since you've developed a great relationship with your customer - chances are, he's going to trust you, and take you at your word.

    And guess what. That little tool you provided (typically a bunch of check boxes against functionality) is loaded in your favour to knock the competition out.

    Which is exactly what Doug provided.

    Anyone looking for all movements on the back would have written off the Max and XY right out of the starting gate.

    Whether this was a deliberate intent from the outset we'll never know. But either Doug is a very well trained sales guy, or he's just extremely naturally gifted at it (or I guess a combination of both). What you are seeing in play here - by accident or design - is sales process methodology 101.

    I'm more than happy to be called out as being overly cynical with regards to my perspective on this. Perhaps I'm just a jaded old fart who has been involved in far too many sales processes in his life (both as vendor and customer) and is not one to just sit back and shut up when he thinks he sees customers getting manipulated by false information.

    But please don't accuse me of going on a witch hunt.

    Who knows. Perhaps Doug really is that rare breed of salesman who would actually be happy to lose a sale and recommend a competitor's product if he recognised that's what would be best for the customer?

    What is evident though, is that without strongly voiced objections, that table would have been left as it was.
    Last edited by gerald.d; 26th May 2013 at 22:53.
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    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogs857 View Post
    Doug

    Just a quick correction for you mate.
    The 120mm Schneider is listed on your site with a 110mm image circle. Schneider list is with a 120mm circle. Also their list for the filter thread is 46mm not 40.5mm.

    Cheers
    My SK 120 N has indeed a 40.5mm filter thread.
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    . . . . .
    Yes. He is a dealer for Cambo and Arca.
    Yes. We of course should expect some bias in some circumstances . . . .

    Who knows. Perhaps Doug really is that rare breed of salesman who would actually be happy to lose a sale and recommend a competitor's product if he recognised that's what would be best for the customer?
    . . . .
    For me one question arises as to whether a forum (any forum) really needs such a strong presence of a dealer .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Jurgen,

    I do hope you're not serious. I think that most of us welcome input from the manufacturers and dealers as they bring valuable information to the forum. It would be very sad if they were effectively chased off.

    Doug in particular makes no attempt to hide his position as a dealer's employee and is very open about that. I really don't think that anyone would expect him not to have a bias towards the products and services his company handles. It would be very naive to expect anything else. However, he has always been very gracious in sharing extremely helpful information about the MF market and products in general. We just have to understand that he doesn't work for an Alpa dealer ... I'd hope that we are thick skinned enough to accept this.

    Personally, I wish we had more dealer and manufacturer input here, not less IMHO. Just my $0.02.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    For me one question arises as to whether a forum (any forum) really needs such a strong presence of a dealer .
    yes, it does. (IMHO)
    www.gigi-photos.com
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Doug's characterization of the Alpa Max and XY is, IMHO, unfair and I don't understand why he doesn't change his table with regard to the issue of back movements. In a way, Gerald's reaction is appropriate. On the other hand, there is, IMHO, nothing wrong with Doug's bias - it's his job to sell cameras and Doug's contributions to this forum are pretty valuable.

    I'm with Gerald with respect to this table (I'm biased: I use a Max :-) but to me, the basic problem is that people tend to forget that they have to evaluate whatever they read in a forum or on a website. And that's why we need strong reactions like Gerald's. Nevertheless it would be a huge mistake to ask dealers not to contribute to a forum like getDPI.

    Chris

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Here lies the problem with us all having strong feelings towards the cameras we use.

    Least we forget, the main purpose of Doug being on these forums is to sell cameras for his income and sometimes I feel any dealer will step over the mark with blatant sales oriented posts. I don't imagine Doug created this post for the shear fun of it. However, the information Doug supplies is of such high quality that I feel he is an important part of this community and this forum would be the worst without his input. A reality check that (as he states) there are other options than the ones he sells out there and its up to the buyer to fully investigate these.

    With regards to this table, there has to be some base to which all cameras are judged. I disregarded Alpa because of their building block camera system. Some see it as giving better choice, I see it as the "optional accessories" and they cost more approach.

    For me, any camera/lens can be configured and modified to allow further functions at a cost but what matters is what is available at the base in regards to camera comparisons. So I think Doug is right to include camera functions available without accessories (stitch adapter?).

    Just IMO.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Here lies the problem with us all having strong feelings towards the cameras we use.

    Least we forget, the main purpose of Doug being on these forums is to sell cameras for his income and sometimes I feel any dealer will step over the mark with blatant sales oriented posts. I don't imagine Doug created this post for the shear fun of it. However, the information Doug supplies is of such high quality that I feel he is an important part of this community and this forum would be the worst without his input. A reality check that (as he states) there are other options than the ones he sells out there and its up to the buyer to fully investigate these.

    With regards to this table, there has to be some base to which all cameras are judged. I disregarded Alpa because of their building block camera system. Some see it as giving better choice, I see it as the "optional accessories" and they cost more approach.

    For me, any camera/lens can be configured and modified to allow further functions at a cost but what matters is what is available at the base in regards to camera comparisons. So I think Doug is right to include camera functions available without accessories (stitch adapter?).

    Just IMO.
    Gareth -

    Where do we draw the line as to what an accessory is?

    To the best of my knowledge, not one of these cameras allows you to attach a digital back without an accessory. (Or maybe the requisite adapter plate is welded to the Cambos and Arcas at the factory?)

    Should we just write them all off on that basis?

    Once again - this is not simply about further functions being made available at extra cost.

    In the case of the XY, it ships with the sitching column.

    When this was pointed out, and he was asked whether he felt it was correct to say that the XY was not capable of having all movements on the back, simply because there was a separate piece of metal in the box that enabled this, he responded "correct".


    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Gerald,

    What you are referring to happens all over the internet. I just feel that beating up on Doug, who clearly represents himself as a dealer is unfair, especially when he goes beyond his role as a dealer to help us all.

    If we are after the "truth", there was a post of LuLa by Dubovoy, NOT in the forums, but in the main articles section on the Alpa FPS. In that article, there is a quote,

    I should mention that Hartblei tried to produce a similar "universal" Medium Format camera some time ago, but the effort was a failure. You can find our review of this device here.

    This was later changed to:

    I should mention that Hartblei has been producing a similar "universal" Medium Format camera for the past three years. You can find Michael's review of the Hartblei Cam here.

    This was presented in a "journalistic review" context, NOT as a dealer. So how many of you were jumping up and down on this, when it clearly was incorrect?

    When the statement was changed eventually, there was not even an acknowledgement that this had happened. Again, where was all this need for accuracy and objectivity?

    I have personally spoken to Doug and Lance on a number of occasions, and both have been extremely helpful. If they are biased so be it, I prefer to spend my money with dealers that believe in what they sell, with or without the Koolaid

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Gerald,

    What you are referring to happens all over the internet. I just feel that beating up on Doug, who clearly represents himself as a dealer is unfair, especially when he goes beyond his role as a dealer to help us all.

    If we are after the "truth", there was a post of LuLa by Dubovoy, NOT in the forums, but in the main articles section on the Alpa FPS. In that article, there is a quote,

    I should mention that Hartblei tried to produce a similar "universal" Medium Format camera some time ago, but the effort was a failure. You can find our review of this device here.

    This was later changed to:

    I should mention that Hartblei has been producing a similar "universal" Medium Format camera for the past three years. You can find Michael's review of the Hartblei Cam here.

    This was presented in a "journalistic review" context, NOT as a dealer. So how many of you were jumping up and down on this, when it clearly was incorrect?
    I was the first person to jump up and down all over this.

    Alpa FPS review

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Doug's characterization of the Alpa Max and XY is, IMHO, unfair and I don't understand why he doesn't change his table with regard to the issue of back movements.
    I did.

    See the end of the last page.

    I don't think it's "wrong" as it was originally listed and it definitely was not malicious. In the same vein I listed the RL3Di movement range as 20mm left/right which excludes the additional movement range possible when adding the sliding back adapter.

    But after asking for and receiving input here I do think its more useful and accurate to say "w adapter" rather than "no".

    There are other capabilities and specifications that change with addition of accessories (e.g. Weight/size/movement-range/focusing distance etc etc) which can't be easily noted in a summary table. But this one could be listed by changing the wording so it has been.

    In other words I think Gerald was right (or in an area of nuance and gray he was more right than I was). I might have even reacted in a too close minded way at first because I felt it was a bit more of an attack than a suggestion. But Gerald does have a good track record of "dolling it out" quite equally and while his writing style can read a bit harsh you can tell it comes from a good place of wanting fairness-above-all-else. Which is a good place to come from.

    He was right and I changed the two boxes accordingly. It did take a night of sleep and a fresh cup of coffee. Though in the age of the Internet 12 hours is probably considered a long delay .

    I am biased; my company sells stuff. I've always stated as much. I guess it's up to each forum member to decide if I'm a sleezy/greedy/shameless sales guy - in which case every small detail could be readily interpreted as a carefully constructed conspiracy to lure unwitting folks into a trap through a series of sales tactics (I'm invisioning a Jedi now). Or if I'm an enthusiastic guy who loves specialty cameras, loves photography, and has found that if you make good information and tools available, answer questions (when you have a good answer) and support people when they need help that business usually follows in sufficient quantity to allow you to enjoy your work and your personal life (even when they overlap a bit).
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 27th May 2013 at 06:01.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    If I may to set the record straight. Doug has never been in sales with CI or his new role with DT. I know Doug very well as we have had him on many workshops, been on several seminars with him and worked side by side testing with him. Doug is a digital technician has been all along , he is not in sales. DT has separate sales folks in there company as well as CI. Not sure Doug even knows the prices of half the products he deals with, he makes no commission on sales either. He purely is on the support side of the industry. I have ate, drank and shared many times together. If Doug is anything he would be considered the biggest nerd you will meet. I mean that in a good way too. He is very bright when it comes to the medium format processes and the gear he works with everyday.

    So to set the record straight as I keep reading sales guy , bottom line he is not in sales period. Never has been. He will help customers obviously about the gear they sell for the company that he works for. That's really his job.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    That is true. But I don't deny that working for a company that sells stuff biases me. Even if my role is tech, not sales.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    once again, doug offers a measured and reasonable reply. let the crusaders rest

    (overly aggressive term removed, with apology)
    Last edited by jlm; 27th May 2013 at 08:44.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Guy, please.

    Regardless of job titles and comp plans, or lack thereof, Doug is on here selling all the time.

    Whether or not he put that page together personally, he linked to it. He promoted it here.

    And that page is a sales pitch straight out of the playbook.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    I was the first person to jump up and down all over this.

    Alpa FPS review
    Gerald, my apologies. I was looking for a correction within the article.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    once again, doug offers a measured and reasonable reply. let the storm troopers rest
    Sod this for a lark.

    I've been told to "cut the crap", accused of being harsh, biased, and of using disgraceful tactics.

    And now being told as a "storm trooper" to rest?

    By someone who hasn't even got the decency to address me directly?

    Consider this account nuked.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    That is true. But I don't deny that working for a company that sells stuff biases me. Even if my role is tech, not sales.
    We are all bias in certain ways, there is really no getting around that. Any tool that you use regardless of brand is usually your favorite tool. That is natural.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Guy, please.

    Regardless of job titles and comp plans, or lack thereof, Doug is on here selling all the time.

    Whether or not he put that page together personally, he linked to it. He promoted it here.

    And that page is a sales pitch straight out of the playbook.
    So is it better to not have information like this brought to people that are interested in these products and worse keep the guessing game up on what's out there. He does not hide the fact he works for a dealer , loves the industry and a excitable guy that loves to talk about MF. Even admits he is bias towards certain products. Are we all not the same in many ways or we would not be on this forum. Hell I love to talk about this stuff, its fun. I'm I bias maybe not but I certainly have my preferences on gear. Frankly we invite all the dealers, tech, sales reps and OEMs to be here on this site, we are adults and certainly capable of editing out things as well. This forum is and always will be about information on the industry at large. Our motto is to learn and share what we know and along the way give back to the industry that we care about. I think we are all smart enough to understand who and what Doug is in the industry. Frankly he is not a sleazy pig or I would have thrown him off years ago. I also consider him a friend and a friend to all the members here , he deserves that respect even with his bias.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Consider this account nuked.
    Gerald, I hope that's not your final decision. I don't know jlm, hence I have no idea how to take his reply but even if he had thought carefully about his wording his is just one voice. And: if you compare this forum to LL, I think getDPI is a much more friendly and civilized place ...

    If you leave, I'd miss your FPS cam porn* - and until a couple of people on this board have bought one (I think Graham is definitely a candidate, me too), Alpa needs 'enablers' like you :-)

    Chris

    *OT: how long does it take to get to the top of Burj Khalifa?

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    The issue of "conflict of interest" should be thought twice before posting reviews or comments, especially someone like Doug who, although not directly a sale person but working with the company selling Cambo and Arca Swiss.
    The same thing happens to the health care industry. Doctors who get sponsored by drug companies to give talks may add only 5% of information in flavor of the drug companies or neglect to not mention side effects of the drugs they are sponsored for. Although the lectures may still be useful to the audiences, this technique is not acceptable any more nowsaday and doctors have been monitored very closely by both the University, associated organization and Government.
    Sometimes the line is so thin you have to be very careful about it.
    Just a thought.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    No one needs to leave and discussion is good. But this is a friendly site and everyone likes it that way. So everyone lets watch the insults as it really has zero amount of value to the discussion at hand. Doug authored this piece which I have not read yet but it is his and we invite anyone to post about it. That's info we all need and want. Honestly I don't know enough about Alpa, Hassy, Leaf, Pentax and others as I would like too myself. I owned a TC at one time and loved it but like many systems its confusing but I do give them a lot of credit for having a website that has good data better than Arca which has none except Rods website. Cambo's to me is limited info. Alpa pulled there rep from the forums which was a stupid idea IMHO. But we have no Cambo rep here either. The only rep is Rod from Arca that posts. So frankly in my eyes these guys need to up there game so we understand these systems. I would like to see Pentax and more Hassy reps here. Leica as well.

    I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  28. #78
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No one needs to leave and discussion is good. But this is a friendly site and everyone likes it that way. So everyone lets watch the insults as it really has zero amount of value to the discussion at hand. Doug authored this piece which I have not read yet but it is his and we invite anyone to post about it. That's info we all need and want. Honestly I don't know enough about Alpa, Hassy, Leaf, Pentax and others as I would like too myself. I owned a TC at one time and loved it but like many systems its confusing but I do give them a lot of credit for having a website that has good data better than Arca which has none except Rods website. Cambo's to me is limited info. Alpa pulled there rep from the forums which was a stupid idea IMHO. But we have no Cambo rep here either. The only rep is Rod from Arca that posts. So frankly in my eyes these guys need to up there game so we understand these systems. I would like to see Pentax and more Hassy reps here. Leica as well.

    I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
    You know there is a old saying believe 50 percent of what you read. It's no different on forums than newspapers when that phrase was coined. Do we all totally believe every camera review. If you do your nuts. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Cut him some slack for what?

    Deliberately misrepresenting the functionality of a system he doesn't sell, that is a direct competitor to those that he does?

    Do you really think it's fine to come out with the excuse that he did for saying the Max can't shift/rise/fall the back?

    Or to claim the XY can't do it either?
    Graham

    The best way to 'fix' an error is to simply point it out...I think you have done a fine job of alerting people to the facts regarding the Max and the XY and I am sure Doug as well as others reading the thread are now aware of the facts.

    No need to feel aggrieved at other's lack of apparent note - your observations have been noted and appreciated I am sure.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
    Guy it is big money in a tiny tiny market - I am guessing that the manufacturers themselves dont really have the time or manpower to be forum regulars.

    Dealers? Well some people like them in forums and some don't. Most sales people are busy trying to sell. There aren't a lot of 'Dougs' paid and made available .



    Just a guess.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Absolutely if something is wrong or missing than totally fill in the blanks. We members appreciate the folks that add data to these discussions. Hell I learned something, actually I learned a couple things on the Alpa's I did not know. Frankly these three systems are all very good. I shot the Arca, Cambo's I owned and been around several Alpa shooters as well on workshops to understand them . But many folks never held anyone of these in there hands as they are pretty rare and you just can't walk into B&H and handle one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Guy it is big money in a tiny tiny market - I am guessing that the manufacturers themselves dont really have the time or manpower to be forum regulars.

    Dealers? Well some people like them in forums and some don't. Most sales people are busy trying to sell. There aren't a lot of 'Dougs' paid and made available .



    Just a guess.
    Well your exactly correct and I agree but it still bugs me they are not here helping people.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I understand also people have issues with dealers on forums as sometimes the barrage never ends. We had it here at one time but we also need the data and really need to edit out some of it I agree. But on the same hand we may never hear of a Alpa system on the streets to begin with. Forums are great and also a hell hole sometimes. I think we all understand that and we also need to go back to that phrase I mentioned as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I did.
    Apologies, Doug, I missed that update. (Nevertheless, I still think that the stitching adapter of the Max is in a different category, that is, it's not an accessory like the Alpa Tilt-Adapter ... Both the Max and the XY should be listed with an unrestricted yes :-)

    Chris

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I've been jumping in here feeling someone should address out the rather strenuous tone of gerald's responses, especially in light of Doug's polite responses

    right off let me apologize for using the storm trooper term; way out of proportion.

    perhaps crusader would be better?

    in my opinion, a simple: "Doug: alpa can do a lot more using the entire system components" would have sufficed.
    There was no need for Gerald's personally demeaning, insulting and incendiary remarks directed at Doug: "complete misunderstanding...clearly do not have sufficient understanding as to the capabilities of the Alpa system to get this table right from the outset... (presumably, this means that in discussing the merits of the cameras that you do sell, over the ones that you don't, you've been getting it wrong for a while). Disgraceful sales tactics. Deliberately misrepresenting the functionality of a system he doesn't sell, ridiculous assertion he misrepresents a product that he does not sell, Who knows. Perhaps Doug really is that rare breed of salesman who would actually be happy to lose a sale and recommend a competitor's product if he recognised that's what would be best for the customer? '

    call a spade a spade; Gerald was way out of line an it pissed me off
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No one needs to leave and discussion is good. But this is a friendly site and everyone likes it that way. So everyone lets watch the insults as it really has zero amount of value to the discussion at hand. Doug authored this piece which I have not read yet but it is his and we invite anyone to post about it. That's info we all need and want. Honestly I don't know enough about Alpa, Hassy, Leaf, Pentax and others as I would like too myself. I owned a TC at one time and loved it but like many systems its confusing but I do give them a lot of credit for having a website that has good data better than Arca which has none except Rods website. Cambo's to me is limited info. Alpa pulled there rep from the forums which was a stupid idea IMHO. But we have no Cambo rep here either. The only rep is Rod from Arca that posts. So frankly in my eyes these guys need to up there game so we understand these systems. I would like to see Pentax and more Hassy reps here. Leica as well.

    I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
    Guy I am with you 100% on this one. As someone who is taking the plunge having as much information from those in the know makes the decisions a lot easier to sort through. I almost bought an Arca just to take the stress out of picking a body. But lack of dealer support made me think twice.

    This is big money, it's not easy to change tack mid stride (Guy I believe you are an expert at this) and having easy access to information is what the internet is best used for.

    Well that and porn.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

    Jeff, but my friends call me Dogs

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogs857 View Post
    Well that and porn.
    Plenty of camera nerd porn here
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Guy it is big money in a tiny tiny market - I am guessing that the manufacturers themselves dont really have the time or manpower to be forum regulars.

    Dealers? Well some people like them in forums and some don't. Most sales people are busy trying to sell. There aren't a lot of 'Dougs' paid and made available .



    Just a guess.
    Let me offer my perspective as a new entrant to the MF Digital arena and currently shopping my first tech cam. I am what they call an enthusiast, meaning, of course that my cash outlay is not a capital investment. I need information from both a dealer and from users. A dealer is trying to read my needs and they understand (or at least they should) that this is a discretionary purchase. I am a prime candidate for the secondary market and recently bought a refurbished MFDB that fit my H503CW.

    So, now I'm fishing in the tech cam market and I have to separate the wheat from the chaff (mixed metaphors...sorry). The gearhead in me, after reading these forums says there is only one solution, an ALPA STC with Rodenstock lenses and HPF rings and a Leica Disto.... and you'll be sorry you ever bought anything else. The, umm, financially shellshocked part of me says, maybe I should dip my toes in with something a little more affordable and concentrate on displaying fine images instead of displaying my refined taste in equipment.

    I've dealt with Digital Transitions and they've been very helpful and attentive and their rep, Lance Schad, seems to understand me as a customer and doesn't seem to mind I don't have 50 grand burning a hole in my pocket.

    These guys as well as this forum have been very helpful.

    Now its just up to me to produce the images.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I found the table informative and don't understand the issues.
    We all read through the lines when it comes to making buying decisions based on information coming from people that are in the business of selling or being affiliated with it.,nothing wrong with that IMHO
    I am based in Asia and I hope that I don't step on anybodys toes for saying that the majority of digital MF shooters would feel blessed to have Doug as well as all the other dealers/ reps and associated industry professionals at their disposal.

    They represent a great source of knowledge , something I wish we had in this part of the world.
    That's probably why you got folks from Asia , Australia and Europe reading and contributing on this very forum.
    At least I have not found a forum apart from Lula where the global MF community enjoys this level of exchange.

    Mind you I have no dealings with CI, have never met Doug and actually shoot Alpa. I don't see any harm done , rather the opposite.
    www.rupho.com
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Let me add coming from a tech cam owner. Prices are deceiving in many ways for example and don't hold me to absolute pricing but having bought the Cambo which the body is the cheapest outlay up front than lets say the Arca but here is the catch on that. Tilt and if you want Tilt features its standard on the Arca on the body and costs lets say 4500 dollars the Cambo body lets say 2800 dollars but now when tilt comes into play on the Cambo its a extra 1200 dollars per lens so you have three lenses with tilt that's a extra 3600 which makes it more expensive than the Arca with tilt built in and just three standard lenses. Than you add accessories on the Arca which are not cheap than your costs for that Cambo with tilt feature than these systems start to become the same costs. Alpa no different and maybe more. I don't know Alpa pricing as well so want to be careful here but there accessories are also not exactly cheap either.

    In all this there is a lot of balancing acts you need to perform and what maybe good for some is not what you need. Now do you need three lenses with tilt for example. Do you need shift adapters do you need expensive viewfinders. Hell do you even need the Disto. I personally have been through this and maybe save in one area but pay more in others. It certainly is a do your damn homework project.

    Also being rare items in all three systems like I mentioned earlier and being in your part of the globe that may play another role in the decision process. May e don't need a dealer next door but certainly one you can get product from and a,so support. Bottom line and you can do the math anyway you want but just body, lenses and accessories can easily put you in the 12 to 25 thousand dollar range and we have not got to the back yet.

    Rough numbers folks so don't hold me to them just some common example of just talking the Tilt feature Arca has it on the body . Alpa is a accessory and Cambo on the lenses. All three take a different approach to just this one feature.

  41. #91
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Btw we do have a very international crowd here and that's a amazing achievement to have such diversity here. Hats off to our members
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Not sure if it applies here, but Sayre's Law says that

    "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." "That is why academic politics are so bitter." (Sayre's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    As a life-long gearhead, I don't know that I agree that the issues here are small ones, but still....

  43. #93
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I think and we do drive this home on the forum when we are at the big ticket items passion runs deep and the worst thing we can do is buy the wrong damn system. I have gotten those emails from members and my hearts sinks when someone spends 40k and he thinks he screwed up. It's not fun replying to them either because you feel so bad. All the more reason to have all the data and as a group we all need to help do that. We can't depend on one person to do that and maybe that comes down to this whole discussion, its not a singular person to provide it all, but as a whole .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think and we do drive this home on the forum when we are at the big ticket items passion runs deep and the worst thing we can do is buy the wrong damn system. I have gotten those emails from members and my hearts sinks when someone spends 40k and he thinks he screwed up. It's not fun replying to them either because you feel so bad. All the more reason to have all the data and as a group we all need to help do that. We can't depend on one person to do that and maybe that comes down to this whole discussion, its not a singular person to provide it all, but as a whole .
    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    I've been told to "cut the crap", accused of being harsh, biased, and of using disgraceful tactics.

    And now being told as a "storm trooper" to rest?
    Guy, I feel it is wrong to try and silence a forum member because he has strong feelings towards the equipment they use. Gerald feels Doug is misrepresenting ALPA and is offering some clarity to Doug's post.

    How anyone dare be rude enough to tell someone to "cut the crap" and accuse them of being a "storm trooper" goes against everything I thought this amazing forum stands for.

    We have all seen the work Gerald produces and the boundaries he pushed with his equipment and a forum without his talent and view point on the equipment he uses is a wasted opportunity indeed. Not only does Gerald provide technical details of equipment he uses but shows amazing imagery produced with it.

    I sincerely hope the moderators realise this and contact Gerald to resolve this in a gentlemanly way rather than see a very active and valuable member leave.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Lets be clear I never used any of those comments in any of my responses in this thread. The only concern towards anyone in this thread was let's not use insulting words that goes out to EVERYONE. This is a non insulting forum with a policy in place. That was my only direct response to anyone. Certainly ways to get a message across and I did not try to silence anyone from speaking out. Just do it without being insulting. Everyone is intitled to there opinion. Not one of those words was used in any of my posts. My only real comment is Doug's role has and never has been as from sales. He has always been from the support side as a digital technician, I know that personally that is the case.

    There where several folks comments that I thought where insulting , no one was singled out in warning but everyone.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I come to this site to learn and enjoy some darn good work that others produce. I have learned a lot from Doug's posts and have also learned from Gerald's posts. Gerald's use of the VR drive with a technical camera is revolutionary to me.
    I would appreciate it if everyone cooled down and continued to teach here and people would post more of their work and fewer of their anxieties.
    Stanley
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Lets be clear I never used any of those comments in any of my responses in this thread.
    My comments were not directed towards you but the members who contacted Gerald my PM.

    Lets hope things can return to pre this topic soon.......

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Group hug time?

    (Sorry, it's been a long travel day ...)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Group hug time?

    (Sorry, it's been a long travel day ...)
    Your long travel day is ending just as mine is starting.

    Up at 4am for 6am flight so I can be in the office at 9am.

    And to think my grandma didn't leave her county until her 40s.

    It will be an early night tonight!
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  50. #100
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    This thread is like trying to have an intense discussion with your boss via email.
    Ed Cooley Fine Art Photography
     
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