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Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

cly

Member
Doug's characterization of the Alpa Max and XY is, IMHO, unfair and I don't understand why he doesn't change his table with regard to the issue of back movements. In a way, Gerald's reaction is appropriate. On the other hand, there is, IMHO, nothing wrong with Doug's bias - it's his job to sell cameras and Doug's contributions to this forum are pretty valuable.

I'm with Gerald with respect to this table (I'm biased: I use a Max :) but to me, the basic problem is that people tend to forget that they have to evaluate whatever they read in a forum or on a website. And that's why we need strong reactions like Gerald's. Nevertheless it would be a huge mistake to ask dealers not to contribute to a forum like getDPI.

Chris
 

gazwas

Active member
Here lies the problem with us all having strong feelings towards the cameras we use.

Least we forget, the main purpose of Doug being on these forums is to sell cameras for his income and sometimes I feel any dealer will step over the mark with blatant sales oriented posts. I don't imagine Doug created this post for the shear fun of it. However, the information Doug supplies is of such high quality that I feel he is an important part of this community and this forum would be the worst without his input. A reality check that (as he states) there are other options than the ones he sells out there and its up to the buyer to fully investigate these.

With regards to this table, there has to be some base to which all cameras are judged. I disregarded Alpa because of their building block camera system. Some see it as giving better choice, I see it as the "optional accessories" and they cost more approach.

For me, any camera/lens can be configured and modified to allow further functions at a cost but what matters is what is available at the base in regards to camera comparisons. So I think Doug is right to include camera functions available without accessories (stitch adapter?).

Just IMO.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Here lies the problem with us all having strong feelings towards the cameras we use.

Least we forget, the main purpose of Doug being on these forums is to sell cameras for his income and sometimes I feel any dealer will step over the mark with blatant sales oriented posts. I don't imagine Doug created this post for the shear fun of it. However, the information Doug supplies is of such high quality that I feel he is an important part of this community and this forum would be the worst without his input. A reality check that (as he states) there are other options than the ones he sells out there and its up to the buyer to fully investigate these.

With regards to this table, there has to be some base to which all cameras are judged. I disregarded Alpa because of their building block camera system. Some see it as giving better choice, I see it as the "optional accessories" and they cost more approach.

For me, any camera/lens can be configured and modified to allow further functions at a cost but what matters is what is available at the base in regards to camera comparisons. So I think Doug is right to include camera functions available without accessories (stitch adapter?).

Just IMO.
Gareth -

Where do we draw the line as to what an accessory is?

To the best of my knowledge, not one of these cameras allows you to attach a digital back without an accessory. (Or maybe the requisite adapter plate is welded to the Cambos and Arcas at the factory?)

Should we just write them all off on that basis?

Once again - this is not simply about further functions being made available at extra cost.

In the case of the XY, it ships with the sitching column.

When this was pointed out, and he was asked whether he felt it was correct to say that the XY was not capable of having all movements on the back, simply because there was a separate piece of metal in the box that enabled this, he responded "correct".


Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

jagsiva

Active member
Gerald,

What you are referring to happens all over the internet. I just feel that beating up on Doug, who clearly represents himself as a dealer is unfair, especially when he goes beyond his role as a dealer to help us all.

If we are after the "truth", there was a post of LuLa by Dubovoy, NOT in the forums, but in the main articles section on the Alpa FPS. In that article, there is a quote,

I should mention that Hartblei tried to produce a similar "universal" Medium Format camera some time ago, but the effort was a failure. You can find our review of this device here.

This was later changed to:

I should mention that Hartblei has been producing a similar "universal" Medium Format camera for the past three years. You can find Michael's review of the Hartblei Cam here.

This was presented in a "journalistic review" context, NOT as a dealer. So how many of you were jumping up and down on this, when it clearly was incorrect?

When the statement was changed eventually, there was not even an acknowledgement that this had happened. Again, where was all this need for accuracy and objectivity?

I have personally spoken to Doug and Lance on a number of occasions, and both have been extremely helpful. If they are biased so be it, I prefer to spend my money with dealers that believe in what they sell, with or without the Koolaid :)
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Gerald,

What you are referring to happens all over the internet. I just feel that beating up on Doug, who clearly represents himself as a dealer is unfair, especially when he goes beyond his role as a dealer to help us all.

If we are after the "truth", there was a post of LuLa by Dubovoy, NOT in the forums, but in the main articles section on the Alpa FPS. In that article, there is a quote,

I should mention that Hartblei tried to produce a similar "universal" Medium Format camera some time ago, but the effort was a failure. You can find our review of this device here.

This was later changed to:

I should mention that Hartblei has been producing a similar "universal" Medium Format camera for the past three years. You can find Michael's review of the Hartblei Cam here.

This was presented in a "journalistic review" context, NOT as a dealer. So how many of you were jumping up and down on this, when it clearly was incorrect?
I was the first person to jump up and down all over this.

Alpa FPS review
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Doug's characterization of the Alpa Max and XY is, IMHO, unfair and I don't understand why he doesn't change his table with regard to the issue of back movements.
I did.

See the end of the last page.

I don't think it's "wrong" as it was originally listed and it definitely was not malicious. In the same vein I listed the RL3Di movement range as 20mm left/right which excludes the additional movement range possible when adding the sliding back adapter.

But after asking for and receiving input here I do think its more useful and accurate to say "w adapter" rather than "no".

There are other capabilities and specifications that change with addition of accessories (e.g. Weight/size/movement-range/focusing distance etc etc) which can't be easily noted in a summary table. But this one could be listed by changing the wording so it has been.

In other words I think Gerald was right (or in an area of nuance and gray he was more right than I was). I might have even reacted in a too close minded way at first because I felt it was a bit more of an attack than a suggestion. But Gerald does have a good track record of "dolling it out" quite equally and while his writing style can read a bit harsh you can tell it comes from a good place of wanting fairness-above-all-else. Which is a good place to come from.

He was right and I changed the two boxes accordingly. It did take a night of sleep and a fresh cup of coffee. Though in the age of the Internet 12 hours is probably considered a long delay :).

I am biased; my company sells stuff. I've always stated as much. I guess it's up to each forum member to decide if I'm a sleezy/greedy/shameless sales guy - in which case every small detail could be readily interpreted as a carefully constructed conspiracy to lure unwitting folks into a trap through a series of sales tactics (I'm invisioning a Jedi now). Or if I'm an enthusiastic guy who loves specialty cameras, loves photography, and has found that if you make good information and tools available, answer questions (when you have a good answer) and support people when they need help that business usually follows in sufficient quantity to allow you to enjoy your work and your personal life (even when they overlap a bit).
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
If I may to set the record straight. Doug has never been in sales with CI or his new role with DT. I know Doug very well as we have had him on many workshops, been on several seminars with him and worked side by side testing with him. Doug is a digital technician has been all along , he is not in sales. DT has separate sales folks in there company as well as CI. Not sure Doug even knows the prices of half the products he deals with, he makes no commission on sales either. He purely is on the support side of the industry. I have ate, drank and shared many times together. If Doug is anything he would be considered the biggest nerd you will meet. I mean that in a good way too. He is very bright when it comes to the medium format processes and the gear he works with everyday.

So to set the record straight as I keep reading sales guy , bottom line he is not in sales period. Never has been. He will help customers obviously about the gear they sell for the company that he works for. That's really his job.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
once again, doug offers a measured and reasonable reply. let the crusaders rest

(overly aggressive term removed, with apology)
 
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gerald.d

Well-known member
Guy, please.

Regardless of job titles and comp plans, or lack thereof, Doug is on here selling all the time.

Whether or not he put that page together personally, he linked to it. He promoted it here.

And that page is a sales pitch straight out of the playbook.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
once again, doug offers a measured and reasonable reply. let the storm troopers rest
Sod this for a lark.

I've been told to "cut the crap", accused of being harsh, biased, and of using disgraceful tactics.

And now being told as a "storm trooper" to rest?

By someone who hasn't even got the decency to address me directly?

Consider this account nuked.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That is true. But I don't deny that working for a company that sells stuff biases me. Even if my role is tech, not sales.
We are all bias in certain ways, there is really no getting around that. Any tool that you use regardless of brand is usually your favorite tool. That is natural.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy, please.

Regardless of job titles and comp plans, or lack thereof, Doug is on here selling all the time.

Whether or not he put that page together personally, he linked to it. He promoted it here.

And that page is a sales pitch straight out of the playbook.
So is it better to not have information like this brought to people that are interested in these products and worse keep the guessing game up on what's out there. He does not hide the fact he works for a dealer , loves the industry and a excitable guy that loves to talk about MF. Even admits he is bias towards certain products. Are we all not the same in many ways or we would not be on this forum. Hell I love to talk about this stuff, its fun. I'm I bias maybe not but I certainly have my preferences on gear. Frankly we invite all the dealers, tech, sales reps and OEMs to be here on this site, we are adults and certainly capable of editing out things as well. This forum is and always will be about information on the industry at large. Our motto is to learn and share what we know and along the way give back to the industry that we care about. I think we are all smart enough to understand who and what Doug is in the industry. Frankly he is not a sleazy pig or I would have thrown him off years ago. I also consider him a friend and a friend to all the members here , he deserves that respect even with his bias.
 

cly

Member
Consider this account nuked.
Gerald, I hope that's not your final decision. I don't know jlm, hence I have no idea how to take his reply but even if he had thought carefully about his wording his is just one voice. And: if you compare this forum to LL, I think getDPI is a much more friendly and civilized place ...

If you leave, I'd miss your FPS cam porn* - and until a couple of people on this board have bought one (I think Graham is definitely a candidate, me too), Alpa needs 'enablers' like you :)

Chris

*OT: how long does it take to get to the top of Burj Khalifa?
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
The issue of "conflict of interest" should be thought twice before posting reviews or comments, especially someone like Doug who, although not directly a sale person but working with the company selling Cambo and Arca Swiss.
The same thing happens to the health care industry. Doctors who get sponsored by drug companies to give talks may add only 5% of information in flavor of the drug companies or neglect to not mention side effects of the drugs they are sponsored for. Although the lectures may still be useful to the audiences, this technique is not acceptable any more nowsaday and doctors have been monitored very closely by both the University, associated organization and Government.
Sometimes the line is so thin you have to be very careful about it.
Just a thought.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No one needs to leave and discussion is good. But this is a friendly site and everyone likes it that way. So everyone lets watch the insults as it really has zero amount of value to the discussion at hand. Doug authored this piece which I have not read yet but it is his and we invite anyone to post about it. That's info we all need and want. Honestly I don't know enough about Alpa, Hassy, Leaf, Pentax and others as I would like too myself. I owned a TC at one time and loved it but like many systems its confusing but I do give them a lot of credit for having a website that has good data better than Arca which has none except Rods website. Cambo's to me is limited info. Alpa pulled there rep from the forums which was a stupid idea IMHO. But we have no Cambo rep here either. The only rep is Rod from Arca that posts. So frankly in my eyes these guys need to up there game so we understand these systems. I would like to see Pentax and more Hassy reps here. Leica as well.

I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No one needs to leave and discussion is good. But this is a friendly site and everyone likes it that way. So everyone lets watch the insults as it really has zero amount of value to the discussion at hand. Doug authored this piece which I have not read yet but it is his and we invite anyone to post about it. That's info we all need and want. Honestly I don't know enough about Alpa, Hassy, Leaf, Pentax and others as I would like too myself. I owned a TC at one time and loved it but like many systems its confusing but I do give them a lot of credit for having a website that has good data better than Arca which has none except Rods website. Cambo's to me is limited info. Alpa pulled there rep from the forums which was a stupid idea IMHO. But we have no Cambo rep here either. The only rep is Rod from Arca that posts. So frankly in my eyes these guys need to up there game so we understand these systems. I would like to see Pentax and more Hassy reps here. Leica as well.

I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
You know there is a old saying believe 50 percent of what you read. It's no different on forums than newspapers when that phrase was coined. Do we all totally believe every camera review. If you do your nuts. LOL
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Cut him some slack for what?

Deliberately misrepresenting the functionality of a system he doesn't sell, that is a direct competitor to those that he does?

Do you really think it's fine to come out with the excuse that he did for saying the Max can't shift/rise/fall the back?

Or to claim the XY can't do it either?
Graham

The best way to 'fix' an error is to simply point it out...I think you have done a fine job of alerting people to the facts regarding the Max and the XY and I am sure Doug as well as others reading the thread are now aware of the facts.

No need to feel aggrieved at other's lack of apparent note - your observations have been noted and appreciated I am sure.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I'm off topic but will get it of my chest since its frustrating as hell and I don't understand it. Forums like this are a very important part of the market and why the hell don't we have more of these folks helping people make smart buy decisions is beyond me. If I owned one of these OEMs I would have someone on the forums answering these 50 thousand dollar questions as this is big money and people need to feel good going in. Okay that's my rant but it really pisses me off.
Guy it is big money in a tiny tiny market - I am guessing that the manufacturers themselves dont really have the time or manpower to be forum regulars.

Dealers? Well some people like them in forums and some don't. Most sales people are busy trying to sell. There aren't a lot of 'Dougs' paid and made available .



Just a guess.
 
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