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Thread: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

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    Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    We have just launched our Technical Camera Tech Spec Overview page on our website.

    As far as I'm aware this is the only place one can find the weight, length, width, and movements of Cambo, Arca, and Alpa tech cameras in one place. It also has the full specifications for all modern Schneider/Rodenstock tech camera lenses including image circle, size, weight, and compatibility with the higher resolution digital backs.

    Any comments, additions, and corrections are very welcome and can be posted here or emailed to [email protected]

    This is in addition to the Tech Camera Visualization Tools (to which we owe a great deal to the forums for useful feedback on design/features/clarity) and the Arca and Cambo product pages in which we believe we present the most comprehensive feature/use evaluation available for these systems anywhere.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    "Quotes may be delayed up to 20 minutes. Information is provided 'as is' and solely for informational purposes, not for trading purposes or advice. Disclaimer"

    ??

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Just one other thing, with regards "Rear only", shouldn't the Alpa STC and SWA be listed as "no", since the lens and back can be swapped?

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    One more.

    ALPA don't sell the Schneider 72. They have the 75, which is available in a short barrel mount.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I think the 72 and 75 is the same lens(?), as the 72's actual focal length in the data sheets is 74.9mm or something like that, so I guess calling it "75" is more correct.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    "Quotes may be delayed up to 20 minutes. Information is provided 'as is' and solely for informational purposes, not for trading purposes or advice. Disclaimer"

    ??
    Maybe some standard table stuff caused by the tool used (some google stuff?). I get the exact same information but in Swedish.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Gerald, I saw you test the 23 HR on your Alpa FPS on an IQ180:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/494735-post23.html

    To me it seems to have that microlens banding documented for some other wide angle lenses, and thus I would say that the 23 HR is not fully compatible with the IQ180, and thus it would say "limited" in the table. Do you agree, or is the banding issue so small that it can be ignored?

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Hi torger -

    The banding comes out if you really work the file hard. There was no sign of it in the original file, but it did come out under strong processing in Silver Efex Pro 2.

    Having said that, it cleaned up 100% with the LCC.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Okay I guess one can say it is compatible then.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Well I'm not sure what parameters Doug is using for his different categories, so only he can answer it really.

    For me, the 23HR is operating right at the limit of the back's capability, even without any shifting. I was extremely surprised when the banding showed up, and very grateful indeed for the resolution!

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    I do not know why he has "No" for the 28 lens with Alpa as I have one and it works well with my Max.

    If you do not sell Alpa cameras, how can you make technical recommendations about them?
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    I do not know why he has "No" for the 28 lens with Alpa as I have one and it works well with my Max.

    If you do not sell Alpa cameras, how can you make technical recommendations about them?
    That's under the heading "TS Available" meaning Tilt-Swing available. The 28HR is not available in a short-barrel tilt-swing compatible mount from Alpa.

    I do not feel comfortable making technical recommendations about Alpa. However I do feel comfortable listing their technical specifications without comment/editorial next to the technical specifications of Arca and Cambo.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    One more.

    ALPA don't sell the Schneider 72. They have the 75, which is available in a short barrel mount.
    They are the same lens, so I think it's less confusing to list it as the 72. Maybe I should make an asterisk and a note to that effect underneath (same with the Alpa 48mm badging of the Schneider 47mm)?

    Thank you however for pointing out the 75 is available in a TS-compatible mount for Alpa. I have updated the table accordingly. This is exactly the sort of correction I was hoping for; thanks again!
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Just one other thing, with regards "Rear only", shouldn't the Alpa STC and SWA be listed as "no", since the lens and back can be swapped?
    "Rear only" is meant to be a positive attribute meaning when stitching you don't have to be worries about the lens moving. Perhaps I should reword to "Rear Only Capable" or such to make it more obvious that this is a desirable (not limiting) attribute? It is described as such underneath.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Well I'm not sure what parameters Doug is using for his different categories, so only he can answer it really.

    For me, the 23HR is operating right at the limit of the back's capability, even without any shifting. I was extremely surprised when the banding showed up, and very grateful indeed for the resolution!
    It's of course a judgement call, but I choose to judge based on the file quality/fidelity after proper LCC is applied. It's not that important to me if the file shows a cast or anomaly prior to LCC if it is not visible in the final file.

    Mostly the goal is to alert potential users that, for instance, with an IQ180 the 28XL's stated image circle is not relevant (since you can't use hardly any of it with an IQ180).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    "Quotes may be delayed up to 20 minutes. Information is provided 'as is' and solely for informational purposes, not for trading purposes or advice. Disclaimer"
    The pages use Google Doc embedding to make it easier to maintain, share, and cross link between different pages/tools we have.

    The disclaimer sucks (in so far as it's a non sequitur for most viewers), but it's non-optional, since elsewhere on the google doc we use a real-time translation of Alpa's Swiss Franc pricing into USD.

    In the end it's an annoyance I choose to live with versus the alternative options.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    "Rear only" is meant to be a positive attribute meaning when stitching you don't have to be worries about the lens moving. Perhaps I should reword to "Rear Only Capable" or such to make it more obvious that this is a desirable (not limiting) attribute? It is described as such underneath.
    This explanation doesn't make sense though.

    You list the Max "no", and yet, with the stitching adapter (and I rather suspect that everyone who purchases the camera, also buys the adapter - I know I did), the lens stays stationary whilst the back rises/falls/shifts.

    I think this highlights the point that Darr was alluding to - you're not an Alpa dealer, and clearly do not have sufficient understanding as to the capabilities of the Alpa system to get this table right from the outset (presumably, this means that in discussing the merits of the cameras that you do sell, over the ones that you don't, you've been getting it wrong for a while).

    There are also many built-to-order lens options for Alpa that you don't list in your table. Perhaps there are also BTO options available for Cambo and Arca? I wouldn't know. What I do know though, is that I recently purchased a 210mm Schneider in a SB34 mount for my Alpas, and this lens isn't listed in your table.

    I'm also intrigued by the statement on the page that you have a private link available for your customers that includes pricing for all three manufacturers.

    Why is this private? Alpa are totally open regarding the ex-factory price of every single thing they sell. On your private page that is only available when someone asks for it, how do you calculate the price of Alpa products?

    Why is the FPS not listed?

    You state on this page -

    "But the numbers (price and specifications) are only a small part of the process of selecting a tech camera. The workflows, ergonomics, aesthetics, and "feels right" factors should weigh heavily in this decision.

    We strongly encourage you to contact us for an appointment at our office, a remote demonstration (video+audio+screen+file sharing), or an evaluation rental (counted towards purchase) so we can help you determine which fits your needs best."

    You then go on to detail Cambo, Arca, and Alpa cameras. And yet, you are not able to provide the above service for Alpa.

    Following one of those appointments, remote demos, or evaluation rental, have you ever recommended a potential customer to buy neither Cambo nor Arca, but based on an understanding of their requirements and the true capabilities of the respective systems, told them that an Alpa solution is actually the best option for them?
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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    A problem I have with your tech specs is your blatant bias towards what you sell. If an Alpa or other non Arca or Cambo owner sees your bias, they may not want to spend their cash with you on other accessories (digital backs, etc.). Just saying you should not be so obvious with your sales pitch and using tech specs as a cover; at least this is how it may be perceived by buyers and users (me in particular, and I own and use Arca Swiss gear). There are other tech cameras out there to include in your spreadsheet, why is it Alpa seems to be the only comparison to what you sell?
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    You list the Max "no", and yet, with the stitching adapter (and I rather suspect that everyone who purchases the camera, also buys the adapter - I know I did), the lens stays stationary whilst the back rises/falls/shifts.
    The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    There are also many built-to-order lens options for Alpa that you don't list in your table. Perhaps there are also BTO options available for Cambo and Arca? I wouldn't know. What I do know though, is that I recently purchased a 210mm Schneider in a SB34 mount for my Alpas, and this lens isn't listed in your table.
    Indeed. There are many additional lenses available for all three manufacturers. Each company is able/willing to mount just about any Schneider/Rodenstock lens. The list is of the represent the current Rodenstock/Schneider line. I will also gladly note this on Tuesday.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    I'm also intrigued by the statement on the page that you have a private link available for your customers that includes pricing for all three manufacturers.

    Why is this private? Alpa are totally open regarding the ex-factory price of every single thing they sell.
    The Alpa website is not "totally open" with pricing. It requires you to register and then sign in to view their pricing. Likewise a quick email to us will give you the link with the pricing.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Why is the FPS not listed?
    It's an overview, not a comprehensive list. Similarly the RM2D, DS, and RS-AE bodies are not listed.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    A problem I have with your tech specs is your blatant bias towards what you sell. If an Alpa or other non Arca or Cambo owner sees your bias, they may not want to spend their cash with you on other accessories (digital backs, etc.). Just saying you should not be so obvious with your sales pitch and using tech specs as a cover; at least this is how it may be perceived by buyers and users (me in particular, and I own and use Arca Swiss gear). There are other tech cameras out there to include in your spreadsheet, why is it Alpa seems to be the only comparison to what you sell?
    Please let me know where you see any information which is "blatantly biased" against Alpa on the technical overview page so I can correct accordingly. It's a list of technical specifications and it's presented without editorial comment.

    Alpa/Arca/Cambo represent nearly the entire market for tech cameras in the US. They are the brands we find our customers are deciding between 99% of the time.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod.
    I think most Alpa folks would consider the stitch adapter a 'mandatory option' for the MAX. I know that it was the first thing I bought for mine when I had it. Somewhat similar to a back adapter being mandatory for any of the bodies ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Give it up Doug, you are bias and anyone that uses an Alpa knows it!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod.
    Well, that's any remaining credibility totally shot to pieces.

    Disgraceful sales tactics.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    tough crowd
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Knowing Doug I actually think that he's trying to be fair by including the Alpa gear in his comparisons but it is important that the information there is accurate. We can help with that constructively and if it's not updated well that's a different situation.

    Obviously we have to expect some bias otherwise he's not doing his job (Hey, I'm in technical sales too!)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Tough crowd indeed.

    Ok I am new here and as such don't know the background (if any) between you blokes.

    However as a "newbie" who has been doing a lot of reading trying to nail down my ideal "kit" I have found this resource quite useful. At the end of the day I highly doubt anyone will commit to spending the equivalent of a small nations budget on camera gear just by reading one review alone. The same could be said for this chart Doug has put together.

    I know the Alpa has an adaptor to allow all movements on the back. So it's not a huge issue that it's not written up as such, as long as the movements are there. I don't think it is included as slight against Alpa. I think the fact that he includes Alpa even though he doesn't sell them is a good thing. It brings all the info into one place for those who are looking at making the jump. As for bias, well isn't everyone?? From what I understand Alpa users love Alpa, Arca users love Arca and the Cambo crowd seem to be a bit quieter. I am sure they still love their gear but are less inclined to get on the front foot about it.

    As for asking to contact them to see the costs page, that is not unusual either. Yes Alpa have their prices on their website but unless you live in Switzerland then it is not that helpful. I can assure you that is has little to no relevance to prices in Oz. In fact for me to buy a body and 3 lenses with all the adaptors etc it is almost cheaper for me to fly to Switzerland and pick them up from the factory. Almost every dealer I have contacted regarding kit both in Oz and the US has not listed prices on their websites. Capture Integration are an exception here but they don't have lens prices.

    I have been in contact with Michelle at DT as well as Jeff at Fotocare and Dave at CI with regards to kit. Everyone has been exceptionally helpful and not at all pushy in regards to sales. I am heading to the US and wanted to try before I buy. Anyone in their right mind should do this. I might think the Apla Max, the Cambo WRS or Arca Rm3di is the right camera for me, but until I try it I will never know.

    This resource is a handy guide, but that's all it is. Thanks DT for putting this together and I can assure you that I have found it quite helpful.
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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Dogs857,
    You make valid points. I own Alpa and Arca Swiss and I agree you need to hold them both and use them to see the differences. I would never trade my Alpa for an Arca R series for various reasons, but have been happy with the reliability of the Arca ML2 for a couple of years, but like all cameras, it has its limitations.

    Resell value and availability of items is an important factor for me. Alpa gear used is about the price of Alpa gear new, and Arca gear, at least recently from what I have been watching on various forums and eBay, does not resell as quickly and as well, value wise. I cannot speak for the Cambo gear, but I do think it is popular.

    The biggest gripe I have with dealers that make postings that appear to be "valuable," is their real target is to find people like you, looking for gear to buy and not really telling the whole story because they themselves do not know the whole story. They use tables of figures and not user experience; sometimes when you are making art, those numbers mean absolutely nothing and cripple some from making it all together.

    I wish you luck being able to try out the systems, I am guessing it will be a difficult task to find an Alpa, Arca and Cambo in one trip to try out. Be careful of workshops before you book because if you have a family emergency you could loose a chunk of change there -- I lost $4000 because of one. The MF buying experience from my side has been a very positive one when I buy used from fellow photographers and not always so from dealers. I found trying to get Arca Swiss pieces at times to be absolutely nuts! The price you pay for this stuff is nuts x2, but we do it because we love our calling to the art.

    Good luck to you!!
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Knowing Doug I actually think that he's trying to be fair by including the Alpa gear in his comparisons but it is important that the information there is accurate. We can help with that constructively and if it's not updated well that's a different situation.
    Hi Graham -

    The problem here is that Doug has made it very clear that he believes it to be a valid comparison between the cameras by ignoring the shift adapter for the Max. Also, I rather suspect that the XY actually ships with its stitching column included, but perhaps because it's a separate piece of metal, it's being deemed an accessory too?

    "The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod."

    Clearly we're past the stage of "oops - thanks, I'll correct that".

    When someone makes the decision to go for either Alpa, Arca, or Cambo (or any of the other peripheral options out there), they are not just buying a camera. They're buying into a system.

    It is completely disingenuous to offer this table up under the pretense that it's some kind of objective analysis that will assist people in making the decision as to which system to buy into.


    Regards,

    Gerald.

    /edit

    Just to add -

    Come at this from the perspective of someone new to tech cams. Someone who knows next to nothing about the capabilities of the 3 different systems. Someone who is going to be looking for a camera that can rise/fall/shift the back.

    "This page is provided to help guide our customers early in their process of selecting the body and lenses that best match their needs and budget."

    Great resource! Let's investigate and see what meets their requirements.

    According to the table, there are no Alpa cameras capable of using rise/fall and shift on the back at the same time.

    Right then. That's 1/3 down. Now to call Capture Integration to get them to help me pick from Arca or Cambo.

    The whole thing stinks.
    Last edited by gerald.d; 26th May 2013 at 01:03.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Buying into a MF Digital system is not just buying a camera . We are talking here about a fair amount of
    often hard earned money . Therefore , good advise can be very helpful .
    I had no advise and decided all myself . My dealer is a nut , but there are so many nuts around in the photo business .

    But how can Doug , or might I better say , his company , advise customers (and they claim to be advisors)
    if they do not deal with ALPA , and do obviously not know much about the ALPA system .
    I do not blame them for that , because no dealer has and can have all of the leading systems in their portfolio .
    Not even talking about the other less known systems like SILVESTRI , HORSEMAN and SINAR .
    But Doug could have come up with the idea of his TECHNICAL CAMERA SPEC SUMMARY and say
    Hey you guys , I want to do this , but as I am not so familiar with ALPA , can you please assist and give me details
    where I do not have them .

    But the way he has started the SUMMARY PROJECT gives me the impression , that he more or less would like to ignore
    the existence of the ALPA System
    and make people believe the TECH CAMERA WORLD has only two names .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Cut Doug some slack guys -not every dealer is allowed to sell Alpa in fact IMHO far too few. I believe I was the first to make a post on GETDPI regarding Alpa since I have been using Alpa for over ten years now as good as Alpa is at what it does - but now there are many many experts who post on here about Alpa.

    However , there are other alternatives capable of doing as good a job - eg in artec's case capable of doing stuff no Alpa can and yet we hear NOTHING about these Sinar systems - because everything any individual buys is by definition got to be the best or some claptrap the herd mentality in here si very funny to see and follow guys

    these tech cameras are a tiny niche product supported by niche lens manufacture batch runs and bought by well heeled eccentrics ( like us) for silly dollars

    Guys like Doug/Yaya who post are doing us all a service - if you think they are pro this or that - so what? I concentrate on the information I can get as long as it is accurate

    All the best
    Pete
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Cut him some slack for what?

    Deliberately misrepresenting the functionality of a system he doesn't sell, that is a direct competitor to those that he does?

    Do you really think it's fine to come out with the excuse that he did for saying the Max can't shift/rise/fall the back?

    Or to claim the XY can't do it either?

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Lets not let this thread get ugly folks. It would be certainly welcome if we had a Alpa tech guy here for sure. The data is what counts and it can be corrected for more accuracy.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    With respect Guy, we don't need any Alpa tech guys to clarify information that is freely and readily available on their website.

    The Max can have all movements on the back with the stitch adapter accessory.

    The XY - the same, but with the stitching column that is provided with the camera.

    Doug has made it clear that he doesn't believe accessories should be considered in his assessment of camera functionality.

    What more is there to it than that?

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    At least with the older Cambo WRS you don't get full (vertical) movements if the Cambo tripod mount isn't attached (and the demo WRS I had didn't come with it, so you can't say it's an integral part). I guess the same holds for all or some of the newer siblings of the WRS.

    If a certain fucntionality is given only if something removable is attached to the body then the Cambo can't get a yes or an unrestricted yes. But I think the classification is mistaken. I don't see a major difference between the Cambo removable tripod mount and the Alpa Max stitching adapter.

    I would hardly argue that built-in tilt as in the RM3 bodies is the same as using an Alpa tilt adapter with the requirement of SB mounts on the lens side. But I don't see the same kind of difference when it comes to movements.

    Chris

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    With respect Guy, we don't need any Alpa tech guys to clarify information that is freely and readily available on their website.

    The Max can have all movements on the back with the stitch adapter accessory.

    The XY - the same, but with the stitching column that is provided with the camera.

    Doug has made it clear that he doesn't believe accessories should be considered in his assessment of camera functionality.

    What more is there to it than that?

    I understand, its more the name calling is the concern more than anything else. Rather that not get out of hand.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    At least with the older Cambo WRS you don't get full (vertical) movements if the Cambo tripod mount isn't attached (and the demo WRS I had didn't come with it, so you can't say it's an integral part). I guess the same holds for all or some of the newer siblings of the WRS.

    If a certain fucntionality is given only if something removable is attached to the body then the Cambo can't get a yes or an unrestricted yes. But I think the classification is mistaken. I don't see a major difference between the Cambo removable tripod mount and the Alpa Max stitching adapter.
    You are thinking of the Cambo Wide DS. That body, like the Max, had movements split between the front and back, and used an adapter to allow rear-only movement.

    That model is not really a current model. It's still on the price list because it's sometimes used in some speciality applications (namely art reproduction camera systems). So I did not include that model on the overview. If I did include it I would have listed it as "no" for rear only movement.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    The biggest gripe I have with dealers that make postings that appear to be "valuable," is their real target is to find people like you, looking for gear to buy and not really telling the whole story because they themselves do not know the whole story. They use tables of figures and not user experience; sometimes when you are making art, those numbers mean absolutely nothing and cripple some from making it all together.
    Darr, you've spent a good amount of time on the phone with me. Are you really saying you think I miss the nuance of the user experience in my dealings with clients? I use (nearly) all the equipment we sell on a regular basis, attend hands on workshops, do most of our training sessions, and have been to many of our manufacturers. I care deeply about the user experience and the process of making an image which is not always be represented in a number.

    But this specific page is a tech spec summary. And even so it starts off by saying "But the numbers (price and specifications) are only a small part of the process of selecting a tech camera. The workflows, ergonomics, aesthetics, and "feels right" factors should weigh heavily in this decision." - how is this not a testament to the exact point you are making?
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Well, that's any remaining credibility totally shot to pieces.

    Disgraceful sales tactics.
    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Deliberately misrepresenting
    Disgraceful?

    That seems unnecessarily harsh.

    I think you've formed (very strong) opinions about me without ever meeting me, or knowing who I am. I'd ask you to consider that maybe you've read too much into things I've written and come to conclusions which simply aren't the case.

    Please find my any person on this board (or otherwise) that have purchased from a company I worked at or have worked with me in person or on the phone or in any 1v1 way who thinks I am a "disgraceful" sales person.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 26th May 2013 at 08:02.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Different vantage points. You can look at this as a biased sales pitch, or rather as the start of something, a work in progress. I prefer the latter. For those of us who have tried to do such comparisons, they are trickier than they seem: its not like comparing 35 mm SLR's, which are all about the same - the variations in the platforms (and their configurations) can confound such a summary.

    Comparisons can be tricky. There are always those that are not on the list, for example, the Linhof Techno. Having tried separately to compare it with these other tech cameras (which are more of a family) leads one to realize that the variations in these cameras are hard to describe concisely. If the list were more complete, wouldn't view cameras, Sinar's Artec and lantec, etc. be on the list? What do you do with stitching backs? And the FPS - should it have two listings, alone, and in combination.... heck, not even Alpa is sure they know all the possible combinations for their own game changer.

    Where Doug may have stubbed his toe is that he probably started out from a commercial side (here's what we sell and recommend), decided to share that (nice...thank you.) and then added Alpa for convenience sake for potential customers. In so doing, he made some assumptions as to what to show or not (accessories, sliding backs, Max vs. XY, FPS, etc.), which is quite tricky.

    Some may look at this and say "raw commercial intent", but its likely more a result of how the process unfolded, and with Doug's pretty good work here, likely with the best of intentions.

    In hindsight, perhaps a clearer separation between "stuff we sell" and "stuff by others" would have helped. Another potential improvement would be to add lenses that are not currently in production - which would be most useful, although if the listing were totally complete, what would Doug have still to do?

    Its a start, commendable, and hopefully to be extended.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    You are thinking of the Cambo Wide DS.
    Just for the sake of clarity, we don't have to discuss this in detail: No, I refer to the WRS, the one with the metal hand grips. If the body doesn't come with the removable tripod mount (read distancer) and you mount it directly on your head, you don't get full vertical movements.

    Chris

    PS: Actually, this problem has been mentioned before by "thomas": http://www.getdpi.com/forum/172526-post15.html
    "The actual WRS body is square so without that little extension at the bottom (see attachment at the end of my post).
    But without this extension you can't use the full amount of rise (i.e. back fall)… so if you don't shoot handheld you are probably always mounting the extension."
    Last edited by cly; 26th May 2013 at 08:16. Reason: PS added

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    The problem here is that Doug has made it very clear that he believes it to be a valid comparison between the cameras by ignoring the shift adapter for the Max. Also, I rather suspect that the XY actually ships with its stitching column included, but perhaps because it's a separate piece of metal, it's being deemed an accessory too?
    Correct.

    Likewise many RL3D customers use a stitching sliding back adapter which increases the range of possible movement. But in the tech specs for the bodies on this page I've listed only the range of movements possible with the body alone.

    You're seeing apparitions of intentional misleading where there are none. It is genuinely meant to be an objective overview list of technical specifications which I could not find collected together anywhere on the internet. And I was genuinely asking for any corrections/additions to make sure it met that objective.

    With another night sleep I find your argument compelling that "no" is incomplete regarding the listing of the Max and XY rear-only movements. So I've changed it to "w/ adapter". I think that's a fair technical assessment; if you'd suggest a different (very short) wording I'd consider it.

    This is an overview comparison; it will not catch all the nuances of these systems. But this is a nuance that could be better explained than "no" and I hope you agree this is a fair way to do so.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Doug: you have my support, thanks for the effort
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    With all do respect Doug, I have never spent a good deal of time with you on the phone. I do remember a talk we had concerning putting an Arca R body on the front of an M series for a macro demo, but it never happened because I had a family emergency and had to cancel my appearance at the workshop. I walked away from that experience very numb after your boss at the time that advertises his "family values" in his business profile as being very important, would not even return my emails personally and kept my money. I guess his family values only apply to his family, not others. But that is in the past and I have learned not to trust the money makers in the business as I once did and I am hesitant about paying for workshops ahead of time.

    I believe you are a smart guy, but I also feel you have been very selective with your data and the "user experience" I am talking about adding is what Jurgen has suggested, ask the users of the gear to help contribute to your chart so a buyer sees all the MF tech gear available, not just what you sell emphasized because it makes you look like a greedy sales tech otherwise.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Disgraceful?

    That seems unnecessarily harsh.

    I think you've formed (very strong) opinions about me without ever meeting me, or knowing who I am. I'd ask you to consider that maybe you've read too much into things I've written and come to conclusions which simply aren't the case.
    Doug. This is an internet forum.

    You are the sum of what you post. For many people, the only time they ever get an insight into who you are, is when you post here or on LuLa.

    Please find my any person on this board (or otherwise) that have purchased from a company I worked at or have worked with me in person or on the phone or in any 1v1 way who thinks I am a "disgraceful" sales person.
    I didn't say you were a disgraceful sales person.

    I said that it was a disgraceful sales tactic.

    Whole world of difference.

    I don't doubt for one moment that you're a really great guy, very good at your job, and work tirelessly to support your customers.

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Just for the sake of clarity, we don't have to discuss this in detail: No, I refer to the WRS, the one with the metal hand grips. If the body doesn't come with the removable tripod mount (read distancer) and you mount it directly on your head, you don't get full vertical movements.
    Aha! Yes you're right about those first versions of the RS. On some tripod heads you'd bump against the plate/tripod without the spacer.

    That spacer is now included and mounted as-sold. It's actually rather easy to forget that it's detachable (e.g. If you shoot only handheld).

    Just highlights the nuances of such systems .

    Still in the face of such nuance I think there is value to have overview tables.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 26th May 2013 at 12:38.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    i think you should all cut the crap; it's an overview and serves a useful function as such.
    Doug has been quite frank asking for updates and corrections and more than polite responding to a barrage of what could be called harsh, biased and disgraceful tactics. and he does not respond in kind
    he does not deserve insults, thinly veiled or not.

    it seems like the Alpa "system" can do anything anyway as long as you buy enough accessories
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i think you should all cut the crap; it's an overview and serves a useful function as such.
    Doug has been quite frank asking for updates and corrections and more than polite responding to a barrage of what could be called harsh, biased and disgraceful tactics. and he does not respond in kind
    he does not deserve insults, thinly veiled or not.

    it seems like the Alpa "system" can do anything anyway as long as you buy enough accessories
    OK!

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Doug: you have my support, thanks for the effort
    Ditto. It's a tough job to do with all of the variations between systems and not call someone's baby ugly along the way.

    I think that having a list of key capabilities required for any tech cam system and listing how it's achieved is probably the fairest way of comparing the bodies and their associated systems. For example, you're going to want focus, x-y shift & tilts which are handled differently by Arca, Cambo & Alpa. Similarly tilts are not standard with any system other than the Arca.

    There is no rear X-Y shift on an Alpa MAX unless you have the stitching adapter mount.

    There is no tilt with either the Cambo or Alpa unless you either buy a t/s lens variant (Cambo) or a tilt adapter accessory (Alpa).

    The tilt available on the Alpa is actually 0-6 degrees with the 34mm adapter, 0-5 degrees with the 17mm adapter. Adapter is flipped for negative tilt or swings. The original tilt adapter supports 0-12 degrees btw.

    Focus on a Cambo or an Alpa is via setting the helicoid to a marked physical distance. On the Arca there's a translation required to rotation/offset. I'm not going in to the pro/cons of each as they are just different ways of doing it. Qualitatively they might be compared differently (HPF vs non-HPF on Alpa, std on Cambo & Arca precision) but ultimately they all allow you to set accurate focus and you can't really say which you like unless you try them.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 26th May 2013 at 13:52.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    Graham, you've brought up a good point about the 6 deg range of the 34mm TS adapter. When I first thought it through it made sense to reference the 5 deg adapter, which is newer and allows more flexibility regarding lens compatibility. But on second thought is seems wise to include an asterisk to that point for more completeness.

    I assume you'd agree the 12 deg version does not fit in the scope of an overview (in which you're accepting not covering all possible details for the sake of simplicity) as this is not the version which a new alpa owner is likely to end up with?
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 26th May 2013 at 12:54.
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    Re: Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

    True - the old tilt adapter version is discontinued. The new gear would be either the 5 or 6 degree adapters.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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