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Thread: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

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    Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    As I like to use non-standard raw developers (rawtherapee for example) I'd like to extract a DCP profile for an old Hasselblad back, a CF-22. I could generate my own profile, but I'd like to have the "factory default" as reference.

    As far as I know Hasselblad don't have icc/dcp profiles on the side like most, but instead have the color profile embedded in their proprietary 3FR file format. Lightroom nowadays should support Hasselblad color, so what I do is to convert the native 3FR to DNG with Adobe DNG converter, and then use "DCPtool" (a free command line tool) to exctract the embedded DCP color profile from the DNG file, which I then can use in my raw converter of choice.

    This works, but I get only a matrix profile (called "Hasselblad 22-Uncoated"), and I was expecting something with curves. It could be that this old back is only supported with matrix, I don't know, or I'm doing something wrong. I would have tried it with a Hasselblad file of some more modern back but I don't have one laying around, and as usual raw sample files are impossible to find on the net.

    I've noted that when exporting from Phocus to DNG no DCP profile is included, just a basic matrix stored in the standard Exif fields.

    Any tips?
    Last edited by torger; 27th May 2013 at 06:23.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    As I like to use non-standard raw developers (rawtherapee for example) I'd like to extract a DCP profile for an old Hasselblad back, a CF-22. I could generate my own profile, but I'd like to have the "factory default" as reference.

    As far as I know Hasselblad don't have icc/dcp profiles on the side like most, but instead have the color profile embedded in their proprietary 3FR file format. Lightroom nowadays should support Hasselblad color, so what I do is to convert the native 3FR to DNG with Adobe DNG converter, and then use "DCPtool" (a free command line tool) to exctract the embedded DCP color profile from the DNG file, which I then can use in my raw converter of choice.

    This works, but I get only a matrix profile (called "Hasselblad 22-Uncoated"), and I was expecting something with curves. It could be that this old back is only supported with matrix, I don't know, or I'm doing something wrong. I would have tried it with a Hasselblad file of some more modern back but I don't have one laying around, and as usual raw sample files are impossible to find on the net.

    I've noted that when exporting from Phocus to DNG no DCP profile is included, just a basic matrix stored in the standard Exif fields.

    Any tips?

    Torger - If you extract the Hasselblad RGB ICC File, does this not suffice?


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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    It probably does; I did not know there was such a thing? I scanned the 3FR file for embedded raw ICC profiles but it could not find any, so I guess it's encoded in some way.

    There are Hasselblad ICC profiles in the Phocus package but these concern Flextight scanning etc, not any digital back.

    What I'm after is a table-based ICC profile or corresponding DCP, ie something better than a regular color matrix. Matrix only is "okay", but it would be nice to be able to get some more detailed factory default to play with. For the Leaf and Phase One backs the DCP files are out in the open, but not for Hasselblad. CameraRaw comes with only one DCP file for Hasselblad called "Hasselblad 39-Coated" (which has detailed tables, ie not just the basic matrix) which I assume are for some KAF-39000 based back(s), but Lightroom/CameraRaw is supposed to support all Hasselblad backs these days, so there's some trick embedded somewhere.

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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    It probably does; I did not know there was such a thing? I scanned the 3FR file for embedded raw ICC profiles but it could not find any, so I guess it's encoded in some way.

    There are Hasselblad ICC profiles in the Phocus package but these concern Flextight scanning etc, not any digital back.

    What I'm after is a table-based ICC profile or corresponding DCP, ie something better than a regular color matrix. Matrix only is "okay", but it would be nice to be able to get some more detailed factory default to play with. For the Leaf and Phase One backs the DCP files are out in the open, but not for Hasselblad. CameraRaw comes with only one DCP file for Hasselblad called "Hasselblad 39-Coated" (which has detailed tables, ie not just the basic matrix) which I assume are for some KAF-39000 based back(s), but Lightroom/CameraRaw is supposed to support all Hasselblad backs these days, so there's some trick embedded somewhere.

    It is located in User>Library>ColorSync>Profiles and can be viewed in ColorSync Utility as 3D model or a more detailed description with tags, etc. Not sure if that helps you.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    Ah, there, no I see no camera profiles there? I guess the "Hasselblad RGB" profile, which is just a matrix profile, is some sort of Hasselblad color space, perhaps used by Phocus (instead of the typical ProPhoto RGB)? What I was looking for is a profile that specifies the color response of the various digital backs, the CF22 in particular in order to get accurate color out of the back in any software, not just Phocus. I e corresponding to the per-camera DCP files Lightroom/CameraRaw has.

    My best guess though is that back in the CF22 days one was happy with only a color matrix and that is what I'm getting out of the DNG converter + DCP extract procedure, ie there is no more to find.

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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    It's a standard ICC profile, you can use it in e.g. Leaf Capture or Capture One and obviously Phocos/ Flexcolor and as Steve said also in the Colorsync utility (or its Windows equivalent) but LR/ ACR need adobe's own matrix as they do not support input profiles.

    Yair

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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    It's a standard ICC profile, you can use it in e.g. Leaf Capture or Capture One and obviously Phocos/ Flexcolor and as Steve said also in the Colorsync utility (or its Windows equivalent) but LR/ ACR need adobe's own matrix as they do not support input profiles.
    Hasselblad RGB.icc is a standard ICC profile containing just a matrix, no LUT. One ICC profile cannot be describing the color properties of all Hasselblad backs, right? If there where icc profiles for the backs there would be one file for each model, right?

    In Adobe CameraRaw (used by Lightroom) there is the file "Phase One IQ180 Adobe Standard.dcp", and "Leaf Aptus 75 Adobe Standard.dcp" and a file for any other Leaf and Phase One back, and of course all the Nikons and Canons. For Hasselblad there is only one file, "Hasselblad 39-Coated Adobe Standard.dcp" which probably is for one of their KAF-39000 backs, but there's nothing for their 50 or 60 megapixel back, or the older 22 megapixel.

    What I'm looking for is the profiles that describes the color response ("color input profile") of the digital backs (ie the one you can generate by taking a photograph of a color checker in standardized light), not any other color space, not for scanning not for printing, not the working space for Phocus processing etc, I want the color response for the digital back so when I open a 3FR file in any raw processor I can assign a .DCP or .ICC so the raw values in the .3FR file are translated into proper color values.

    Lightroom does not support .ICC/.ICM but uses the more modern .DCP instead for the same purpose, ie camera input profile. RawTherapee that I'm using supports both file types for camera input profile.

    I see lots of icc files in the ColorSync directory, but nothing that appears to be related to their digital backs.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Hasselblad RGB.icc is a standard ICC profile containing just a matrix, no LUT. One ICC profile cannot be describing the color properties of all Hasselblad backs, right? If there where icc profiles for the backs there would be one file for each model, right?

    In Adobe CameraRaw (used by Lightroom) there is the file "Phase One IQ180 Adobe Standard.dcp", and "Leaf Aptus 75 Adobe Standard.dcp" and a file for any other Leaf and Phase One back, and of course all the Nikons and Canons. For Hasselblad there is only one file, "Hasselblad 39-Coated Adobe Standard.dcp" which probably is for one of their KAF-39000 backs, but there's nothing for their 50 or 60 megapixel back, or the older 22 megapixel.

    What I'm looking for is the profiles that describes the color response ("color input profile") of the digital backs (ie the one you can generate by taking a photograph of a color checker in standardized light), not any other color space, not for scanning not for printing, not the working space for Phocus processing etc, I want the color response for the digital back so when I open a 3FR file in any raw processor I can assign a .DCP or .ICC so the raw values in the .3FR file are translated into proper color values.

    Lightroom does not support .ICC/.ICM but uses the more modern .DCP instead for the same purpose, ie camera input profile. RawTherapee that I'm using supports both file types for camera input profile.

    I see lots of icc files in the ColorSync directory, but nothing that appears to be related to their digital backs.

    Torger - you may be right, it may not have the LUT (don't know), but you may be looking in the wrong place if you don't see it. If you have connected a Hasselblad digital back to a computer and tethered it to Phocus software, the Hasselblad RGB ICC Profile should be there. Be sure you're looking in the User Library, not the System Library.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    If I open a 3FR file in raw digger, in the exif there is this entry:
    Color Matrix 1
    0.5427246094 -0.1147460937 0.01733398438 -0.3834228516 1.207275391 0.1968994141 -0.1444091797 0.33203125 0.5621337891
    Don't know if this is what you are looking for.
    Last edited by Miller; 28th May 2013 at 21:43.

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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    I shall check again, maybe the ICC profile appears when connecting to Phocus as you say, did not tether it at that time. It could be the right profile, also with the DNG convert trick, it's just that I thought it would be a LUT-based one.

    Miller: thanks, no it's not that one. The ColorMatrix1 is a standard exif entry that most (all?) raw formats have, which is the base level used for interpreting the color. Ie if the raw converter do not have any profile at all that color matrix is used, with that you get quite okay color. Problem is that to get the most accurate color there is a need for non-linear conversions, and for that you need a LUT-based profile, which is in standard terms stored as an .ICC or .DCP if DNG.

    In the most basic for the .ICC and .DCP can store just a matrix though and no tables at all, ie exactly the same as ColorMatrix1 in the exif data, and that is what I've been able to extract so far. I'm not sure if I'm doing wrong or if the Hasselblad CF22 digital back actually do not have a LUT-based profile.

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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    I wonder if it could be the case that Hasselblad digital backs have some built-in color-conversion so the raw values are pre-cooked to as good as possible match the Hasselblad RGB.icc included in Phocus? Ie the .3FR does not contain the raw sensor values as read by the ADC, but something that has been run through a color conversion already in the back? This way all Hasselblad backs regardless of sensor could have the same input profile.

    There is this "Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution" but I find only market speak for it, not description of how it actually works. Is there such a description? I'm thinking that if you would use Hasselblad for reproduction photography one would want to know how it works.

    By some unknown reason I don't manage the "Reproduction" tool to appear in Phocus when I run the CF22 back tethered. Edit: found it now.
    Last edited by torger; 29th May 2013 at 03:10.

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    Re: Extracting Hasselblad DB color profiles

    As far as I know, Hasselblad RGB is the color space used internally in Phocus.
    It should be more or less equivalent to ProPhoto RGB.
    There might be a Phocus SDK, but no idea if that could help you on your way.


    About HNCS:
    http://www.hasselblad.com/media/2679871/hncs.pdf


    By the way, there is no Color matrix 1 entry in my NEF files. But hey, I don't own a D800.

    Oh, and I almost forgot, more about color management in Phocus:
    http://www.imagingetc.com/resources.php

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