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Thread: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

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    Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Yes.. I'm back again thinking about jump to MF system..

    I've been seeing a lot of works, love almost all of them but.. what about the system?

    is it better a Leica S2 because the lenses and the handling of the camera? or the Phase One P45+ with a 645DF camera? Weight? easy of use? viewfinder? best IQ?

    What about the 70 summarit against the 80 Schneider? and the 110LS?

    I opened a thread about Joey Lawrence, and today, He's surprising me with his work.

    Do You think is it enough or better a Rolleiflex with 2.8F Planar?

    pfff… I have my x2 for street photography but something inside me is asking for a quality jump , bigger portraits prints.. Will I need flashes and those stuff¿ I love natural light..

    The other point is stay with x2 and just purchase a good Nikon D700 or 5DMKII with 85 prime for portraits.. but I love color and probably a CCD will give me better results..

    Thanks!

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Bruno,

    That's quite a wide range of equipment choices. It sounds like you need to rent or try some of these systems as they are so different. The P45+/DF vs Leica S depends on what you want to achieve and your budget. There's a huge difference between these and the D700/5DMkII at the other end of your spectrum (plus these have newer better alternatives).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Joey's work has more to do with him than his equipment.

    The S2 and the 645DF are not the same camera. If you have the money for the S2 and you need a simple line of lenses and like 3:2 ratio format, then go with the S2. I would also chose a Pentax 645D over a 645DF--the DF is really old and the S2 and 645D are simply better. I would go for the DF if I was thinking of going to a tech camera.

    I would go for a D600 or D800 over the D700 or 5D mkII. I would get a 5D mkIII over the mkII. You might find a D800 a nice compromise between the X2 and MFD.

    If you want to do what Joey does, then you will need flashes. If you want your own aesthetic and use natural light, then you will simply have to develop the skill--you will need to develop skills to imitate Joey, but which is better for you.

    The image quality has nothing to do with CCD vs. CMOS. Both will produce great color.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Are you sure you know why you want a medium format camera and what you are looking for that a D800 can't give you? It's an important question that I have been asking myself these days. I'm getting closer to the answer now, but it has been a few months with lots of research, both with regards to gear, my needs and how to solve them.

    Or you could just buy a medium format camera because it's cool. Then, I would go for the Leica, no doubt
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 6th June 2013 at 21:55.
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Leica S2 gives you access to a lot of lenses via the adaptor's which seem to be very well implemented ,the S glass is also extremely good and the S body feels like a 5D in your hands and has weather sealing too....

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I stepped out of MF last year after I got my D800E. This is an extremely good camera, giving you a lot of resolution if you use the right glass.

    S2 and other MF still a tick better if you use it right, but for general use the D800E in combination with all the available lenses for Nikon mount is by far the more flexible solution. This in combination with the much higher price deterioration of MF was finally the most important criterium to leave MF land.

    And I am HAPPY and do not look back!

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    My Arca tech camera is the only thing that keeps me in MF and without it (H5D or DF+) I really don't see the point spending over and above the cost of the Nikon (or Canon when it arrives). I love the quality of my Phase back but IQ improvements have all but stalled since 2009, with only very minor improvements and until this changes IMO it best to keep the money in the bank.

    The only factor would be if you had some exotic requirement for 80Mpix files and you could only use a motorised/AF MF SLR but for portraits and street photography I find that highly unlikely.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I jumped into medium format for several reasons:

    1. Wide angle lens quality and shift tilt. my experience: the quality of the Rodenstock 40mm HR lens is stunning and I can make a lot of movements and still have high quality.
    2. Technical Camera. my experience: the Arca Rm3Di is superb. All shifting movements are in the back which makes for easy stitching. The design of the body is very nice and slick which makes for a compact and elegant solution. It is a joy to work with.
    3. Resolution and overall image quality. my experience: the Phase One IQ160 produces a very deep (color/dr) and high res file. It is well above any DSLR and 40mp and below backs.

    [this is all for landscape and architecture]

    If I was looking for a MFD camera for people and general photography I would probably consider the Leica S2 if money no object and if so then my choice would probably be the 645D.

    Another choice if budget allows would be the IQ140 back with either a hasselblad or a Phase body. I really like working with my IQ back and wouldnt mind using it for other photography.

    Regarding Joey Lawrence his style (regarding technical aspects) is about using studio lights outdoors and post-production.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I would go S2. From your current equipment it sounds like you don't do pro work. A DF and p45+ only excel at certain things such as long exposure or in studio beauty/fashion if you get the white balance right. Not going to be versatile enough for you in my opinion. Also cannot take it out in a rainy day and that thing is HEAVY. I use a DF and p65. Put a long lens on that kit plus tripod nearly killed my shoulder one day. Although the lenses are cheap.

    S2 is just a more integrated product. The build is much better than the DF+ in my opinion, and lt weights a lot less. Also looks badass. I'm actually thinking about trading my Phase kit for a Leica S kit. So far no Leica S owners want to give theirs up. That tells you something about the camera

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Yes.. I'm back again thinking about jump to MF system..

    I've been seeing a lot of works, love almost all of them but.. what about the system?

    is it better a Leica S2 because the lenses and the handling of the camera? or the Phase One P45+ with a 645DF camera? Weight? easy of use? viewfinder? best IQ?

    What about the 70 summarit against the 80 Schneider? and the 110LS?

    I opened a thread about Joey Lawrence, and today, He's surprising me with his work.

    Do You think is it enough or better a Rolleiflex with 2.8F Planar?

    pfff… I have my x2 for street photography but something inside me is asking for a quality jump , bigger portraits prints.. Will I need flashes and those stuff¿ I love natural light..

    The other point is stay with x2 and just purchase a good Nikon D700 or 5DMKII with 85 prime for portraits.. but I love color and probably a CCD will give me better results..

    Thanks!

    Sony RX-1 or the rumored variation that will show up soon.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    All the above is useful advice, but the best for you is most likely to test both cameras. If they don't lend them to you, I'd recommend you rent them for a few days. That's really a big investment you are looking at ;-)

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Thank You all! I'm in Barcelona on holidays until Sunday sorry for the late reply.

    I tried the S2 in the Mayfair Leica Store, on Wednesday.. Wooooow! What a camera! Excellent and big viewfinder, excellent handling, accurate autofocus, superb build quality.. And the 70 summarit is an amazing lens! As the 50 lux is.

    The guy who showed me the S2 told me that I can print A0 without concerning about the quality, huge!

    Do You think is important the sensor size against the Phase or Hassy?

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post

    Do You think is important the sensor size against the Phase or Hassy?
    Realistically, in a closed system, no.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    hard to take seriously the angst in choosing between a $500 Rollei and a $60k Leica S
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    If you don't mind buying used, someone is selling one has one up for auction on ebay.

    Leica S2 P 37 5 MP Digital SLR Camera w Summarit s 70mm Lens 4022243108028 | eBay

    Last I looked, camera and lens w/ some warranty left going for less than 11k.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    If you're thinking of MFD, why include the Nikon D700 or Canon in your comments? If you just want the resolution of MFD, then get the Nikon D800 over the Leica S2 or Phase One 645DF.
    The Pentax 645D, although a closed system is the better value for MFD, and shares the same exact sensor as the Hasselblad H4D 40, but is completely weather sealed.

    You most certainly can create your own aesthetic with lights (is there any other way?) Get one light and portable battery and have at it!

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I've made my deal with the gods that be.

    For medium format, it's 6x6 film for me ... Hassy 500CM + 80 Planar + 150 Sonnar + SWC. Add Voigtländer Perkeo II for a portable, pocketable camera. And Nikon Super Coolscan 9000ED.

    If I want to go MF digital, I'll buy an MF digital system, not adapt the V system. But I don't see that happening unless my pay grade does one of those unexpected quantum leaps upward. Then the Leica S is in my sights. It's a great fantasy.

    Godfrey
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    thank guys.. so My main photography will be portraits, I guess there is a huge difference between a 24x36 sensor (d800, 5D, whatever) and a S2 or P45+.. and the quality of the lenses Leica and Schneider will make another big difference! In my opinion.. I want quality and 1m wide prints.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    The difference between 35mm and the MFD you are looking at is 24x36 and 33x44 (or 29x44 for the S2). Not a huge difference. The format will have nothing to do with print size.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Then..? The quality of detail and micro contrast?

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    thank guys.. so My main photography will be portraits, I guess there is a huge difference between a 24x36 sensor (d800, 5D, whatever) and a S2 or P45+.. and the quality of the lenses Leica and Schneider will make another big difference! In my opinion.. I want quality and 1m wide prints.
    DMF does very good skin tone's,the Dalsa sensor's of the hasselblad 60 or phase backs are probably a little better than the Kodak sensor's..imho bothe are better than nikon..

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Then..? The quality of detail and micro contrast?
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...t-opinion.html

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    All this is strictly personal preferences. It depends on what you may see, or not see in how each system renders light, details, etc., plus the functional aspects of operation, or whatever measure you personally use. It is hard to please a portrait subject or client, if you can't first please yourself.

    I do what you do Bruno, mostly people photography, and a lot of portrait work with and without lighting. I've been a wedding and portrait photographer forever, but am now retiring from wedding work for the most part, and concentrating on portraits. A lot of wedding assignments also involve portrait work, especially Bridal portraits.

    I simply do not like using a 35mm DSLR for this sort of photography if I can help it. I don't shoot portraits in bad light, so do not need very high ISO abilities. I don't like squinting through a tiny peep-hole finders, and much prefer big, lush focusing screens.

    While I am sure cameras like the D800 or Canon 5D-III are terrific and have their devoted users producing great work, I simply do not like how Nikon or Canon glass renders, preferring the Hasselblad glass over that, and the Zeiss/Schneider lenses over that, and the Leica optics over all of them ... be they M, R or S. Plus, I like AF ability for more spontaneous portrait approaches ... so, adapting Leica R, or using Zeiss MF lenses on a Canon or Nikon is a no go for me ... been there, done that to death ... way to slow for moving subjects when doing spontaneous or environmental candid portraiture.

    In general, I do like most any of the MFD systems for portrait work ... a lot. Big bright screens, better and better optics, ever improving ergonomics. Each one has their pluses and minuses, but as a whole the possibilities are wonderful.

    My pal uses a Contax 645 and Phase back, another uses a H4D/50 to shoot all of his people work, I've used a Mamiya with a Leaf Aptus back and a bunch of Hasselbald H cameras all the way to a H4D/60 ... and now have centered on the S system which does everything I want and then some ... basically my dream kit come to life. It is fast as hell to operate, uses dual shutter for ambient work or with HSS lighting. It can take the S lenses, Hasselblad lenses, and now the Zeiss Contax 645 lenses ... all while retaining full functions including AF.

    Today's Portrait photographer can span a hug range of approaches, however, one thing that tends to be a general commonality is use of post processing variations. It is here, in post, that more of the differences began revealing themselves IMHO. Personally, I've come to prefer optics that render using micro-contrast for acuity ... it seems to stand up to many of the Portrait type post programs available to the portrait photographer these days. I find it very apparent in the skin texture ... which is no small issue for this work.


    In particular, the S-120/2.5 is a unique optic for portraits ... very fast for a 120 MF lens with gorgeous OOF rendering and that micro contrast that retains skin detail even when heavily manipulated by a modern portrait post program effects so popular with clients these days. While it may not show up in sub 1 meg compressed sRGB web jpegs, the large prints are stunning. Here are a few I just did for a wedding client last week that were very time constrained, including a candid AF shot (triptych below):

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 10th June 2013 at 14:04.
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Then..? The quality of detail and micro contrast?
    That is it as well as color. It is subtle, but there. I find the optics better too.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Damn it… thank You guys.. I've almost decided buy a Good DSLR and a 85 but seeing this.. Damn!! Leica S2 is each time closer..

    My sister, will get marry in July so.. perfect to try one of this beauties before!

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I wonder if there is a bad MF 120mm macro? It seems like that is always one of the best lenses of every lens line--relative merits excluded.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I wonder if there is a bad MF 120mm macro? It seems like that is always one of the best lenses of every lens line--relative merits excluded.
    I agree.

    Prior to the S120/2.5, my fav was the Contax 645 120/4 ... and never could seem to get anything quite as beautiful in terms of tonal roll-off, bokeh and micro-contrast ... that the S version surpassed it was shocking to me ... maybe because of the faster max aperture? Darned bright viewfinder with this S version also.

    - Marc

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I think the differences between MFD and 35mm are there but are currently very, very close IQ wise and sometimes we see what we want to see when evaluating the differences.

    I personally wouldn't worry about IQ if looking at 35mm (D800?) with the best glass (Zeiss?) because it can produce stunning quality and lighting differences will pay a much bigger roll than a slightly larger sensor or astronomically priced Leica glass.

    I do believe very much as Marc said, get the system you enjoy using the most and the whole process become more fluid an enjoyable (easier??). If all yo do after spending on a full 35mm system is long for a Leica that the 35mm system will have been a complete waste of money.

    Buy based on the camera you want and can afford rather than the slight IQ (golden eyes) they produce IMO.
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    for me of course, leica M and X2!!

    Here You are, my last trip to Barcelona, just with the X2: Barna - YouTube

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    So the choice is between the S2 and P45+.

    And the winner is the Leica M.

    But of course.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    No I meant.. That's the cameras I am used to shot, and I was joking, obviously.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    These two guys are amazing.. as soon as I have the money I will jump into the MF System


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXcG...1C076A&index=9


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71OA...1C076A&index=7

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Hi Bruno,

    I will not be too optimistic about MFD.
    Your pictures will not be dramatically difference from ones taken with the Nikon D600, D800 or 5D Mark II, to name a few. To be honest, it is much easier to handle the 35mm DSLR than the MFD. The weight and cost are also issues.
    Look from what you posted, make sure you really need it before jumping in, it's a money pit and hard to sell when you want to upgrade or change your mind. You can buy lots of glasses for 35mm-DSLR with that money and if you don't like them, you can sell them with insignificant losses.
    If you have extra money, go for it!
    Just want to share my (painful) experience with MFDs

    Pramote

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Hi Bruno,

    I will not be too optimistic about MFD.
    Your pictures will not be dramatically difference from ones taken with the Nikon D600, D800 or 5D Mark II, to name a few. To be honest, it is much easier to handle the 35mm DSLR than the MFD. The weight and cost are also issues.
    Look from what you posted, make sure you really need it before jumping in, it's a money pit and hard to sell when you want to upgrade or change your mind. You can buy lots of glasses for 35mm-DSLR with that money and if you don't like them, you can sell them with insignificant losses.
    If you have extra money, go for it!
    Just want to share my (painful) experience with MFDs

    Pramote
    Hi Pramote

    One point worth mentioning here is that the Leics S handle's like a 35mm camera,regarding the financial aspect it would be best for most people to buy used where the real depreciation has already taken place.

    best

    Rob

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I Think the sensor size for example of the p65 or some Hassy will make the difference, isn't it? against Leica S system … in term of quality, dynamic range and DoF..

    By the way, is Schneider as good as Leica?

    Schneider-Kreuznach and Phase One - YouTube

    Schneider-Kreuznach LS lens for Phase One 645DF camera body - YouTube

    Working with leaf shutter lenses | Adrian Weinbrecht - YouTube

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    I Think the sensor size for example of the p65 or some Hassy will make the difference, isn't it? against Leica S system … in term of quality, dynamic range and DoF..

    By the way, is Schneider as good as Leica?

    Schneider-Kreuznach and Phase One - YouTube

    Schneider-Kreuznach LS lens for Phase One 645DF camera body - YouTube

    Working with leaf shutter lenses | Adrian Weinbrecht - YouTube
    "By the way, is Schneider as good as Leica?" I think preferences play a significant role here,Lenses render differently and stamp their own character on the image,both the Leica and Schneider glass is very sharp,color and bokeh will be subjective.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Hi Pramote

    One point worth mentioning here is that the Leics S handle's like a 35mm camera,regarding the financial aspect it would be best for most people to buy used where the real depreciation has already taken place.

    best

    Rob
    Hi Rob,

    Points taken! That's why I have one (S2) coming. However, even the S2, very long exposure is still impossible.
    I've just wanted to give new members a warning. Buy MFD, only when you've had lots of extra cash as the cost will add up especially lenses.
    MFD including the IQ180 I've currently owned is just for a pleasure, not for dramatic improvement in quality, compared to the D800E. The quality of pictures is mainly from your visionary, not equipment. Galen Rowell's pictures are not even sharp!
    I've worked (my day time job) very hard all of my life (certainly with my wife's generosity) to be able to have MFDs. Buy it only when you're ready and don't forget your kids' college fund!

    Regards,
    Pramote
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    After think a lot.. I won't buy a Leica S2 with 70mm, too expensive for an amateur use and I've decided to try a Hassy, good idea for portraiture work and static motives?

    How it hand with the skin tones? and natural light?

    A friend of mine will lend me the camera with the 80HC all the time I need.

    Thank You very much!
    Last edited by Bruno; 17th June 2013 at 07:52.

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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    I want to "rescue" this thread, because after a year I'm decided to buy a S2 and a 70mm!

    I hope is the right choice!

    Any tips and tricks?

    For me the 70mm is the standard lens to start and a good compromise between quality, aperture, and focal. I know there is an additional screen, is this split or just better?

  40. #40
    Senior Member
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    Nov 2009
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    Re: Bck again… S2 or P45+?

    My advice, try to find a dealer who will let you demo the camera for a day or two.
    Shoot it a lot process the images and decide if you like it?
    Then...
    Ask yourself what will I be able to do with the new camera that I cannot do with my existing gear?
    Ciao,
    Giorgio Niro
    www.giorgioniro.com

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