Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

  1. #1
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    A long overdue test with some interesting results.


    https://captureintegration.com/a-loo...-hasselblad-h/



    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    296
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Thansk Steve for the pointer to this interesting test. I also find as you mention many other factors particularly hand holding can be more of a problem than mirror slap that may not have a huge impact on the technical aspects of the image but sometimes scares pigeons. I am also curious about how other cameras such as the Hy6 and Leica S would fit in to this comparison?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Thansk Steve for the pointer to this interesting test. I also find as you mention many other factors particularly hand holding can be more of a problem than mirror slap that may not have a huge impact on the technical aspects of the image but sometimes scares pigeons. I am also curious about how other cameras such as the Hy6 and Leica S would fit in to this comparison?

    Certainly - a different project for a different day. This little project was primarily intended to show that perception and reputation don't always match reality. However, as has been pointed out on LL, adding some additional shutter speed like 1/30 - 1/8 would tell more of the overall story. Maybe we'll take a look at that and at the same time add some more cameras. Of course the tricky part is the more cameras you add, the tougher it is to perform the test in general and to perform it apples to apples. I took the opportunity where we happened to have a P65+ in Contax mount (not common) and a P65+ in Hasselblad H mount so it could be apples to apples. So that would have to be a little different type of test, but still would be interesting nonetheless.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bildifokus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden, Spain
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Did you use mirror delay on the Hasselblad?
    If you did, what time was it set too?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    552
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Mounting, particularly tripod size?

  6. #6
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by Bildifokus View Post
    Did you use mirror delay on the Hasselblad?
    If you did, what time was it set too?
    I've never used a H2 ... can you set the mirror delay on that model?

    I know for sure that setting the mirror delay on the H4D/40, 50 and 60 really works, and makes a visible difference in hand-holding lower shutter speeds.

    Wish my S2 had that feature.

    - Marc

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Certainly - a different project for a different day. This little project was primarily intended to show that perception and reputation don't always match reality. However, as has been pointed out on LL, adding some additional shutter speed like 1/30 - 1/8 would tell more of the overall story. Maybe we'll take a look at that and at the same time add some more cameras. Of course the tricky part is the more cameras you add, the tougher it is to perform the test in general and to perform it apples to apples. I took the opportunity where we happened to have a P65+ in Contax mount (not common) and a P65+ in Hasselblad H mount so it could be apples to apples. So that would have to be a little different type of test, but still would be interesting nonetheless.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Thanks for this Steve.

    Since I used a C645 prior to moving to the H system, I also wondered about the mirror slap ... however, I also wondered about the effect the shutter itself had on vibrations. When you lock up the mirror on both cameras, the answer is obvious when you hear the minuscule "snick" of the H leaf-shutter and virtually feel nothing from the camera.

    I also agree that tripod mounting is no assurance of maximum acuity. I used to shoot sequential still images for stop-action test commercials for TV (Photomatics). The tech guy would line them up in layers and turn them on and off in sequence to make sure there was no background movement. I quickly learned that you couldn't manually press the shutter button without creating movement no matter how locked down and sand bagged the tripod was. When I switched to a long cable release, it solved the problem.

    - Marc

  8. #8
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Thansk Steve for the pointer to this interesting test. I also find as you mention many other factors particularly hand holding can be more of a problem than mirror slap that may not have a huge impact on the technical aspects of the image but sometimes scares pigeons. I am also curious about how other cameras such as the Hy6 and Leica S would fit in to this comparison?
    IMO, part of the H advantage is that it is a dedicated Leaf Shutter camera. The S camera also uses leaf shutter lenses, but the focal plane shutter is still active and has to get out of the way before the camera can capture a leaf shutter image ... so there is no advantage in using leaf shutter mode to mitigate the effect of the focal plane shutter.

    HY6 would be an interesting test against the H camera (with the mirror delay set on the H, since it is there to use in critical situations).

    Are there other MFD cameras that have the mirror delay option? If not, they should add it because it really works.

    - Marc

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bildifokus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden, Spain
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I've never used a H2 ... can you set the mirror delay on that model?

    I know for sure that setting the mirror delay on the H4D/40, 50 and 60 really works, and makes a visible difference in hand-holding lower shutter speeds.

    Wish my S2 had that feature.

    - Marc
    I've only used the H4, I do not know if there is a mirror delay in the H2.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    76
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, part of the H advantage is that it is a dedicated Leaf Shutter camera. The S camera also uses leaf shutter lenses, but the focal plane shutter is still active and has to get out of the way before the camera can capture a leaf shutter image ... so there is no advantage in using leaf shutter mode to mitigate the effect of the focal plane shutter.
    ...

    - Marc
    You can set mirror up, if there is a set-up where you don't need the finder right before you shoot?
    - ErlingMM

  11. #11
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by erlingmm View Post
    You can set mirror up, if there is a set-up where you don't need the finder right before you shoot?

    The mirror was locked up on both cameras. The H2 (actually it might have been a H4X, can't recall) had the mirror delay function active and set to 100ms. I find the 200ms setting to distracting because it makes me feel like I accidentally set a slow shutter speed or something and it throws me off. The 100ms setting to me is a nice compromise and yes, it certainly has a positive impact. Both cameras were mounted to a Cambo Studio Stand with an Induro PHQ 5 Way Pan Head and were released from the release command of Capture One. There was no manual release occurring at the camera level.

    Yes, the shutter has an impact. This is far from a definitive test - it's important to keep in mind the amount of vibration is a sum of all involved components. From that standpoint, some additional testing at slightly faster shutter speeds in the 1/8 - 1/30 range will tell more of a complete story. This was mostly to put at least a little reality into what we've always thought over the years. More to come soon, I hope, as time allows.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    296
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    I know for sure that setting the mirror delay on the H4D/40, 50 and 60 really works, and makes a visible difference in hand-holding lower shutter speeds.

    - Marc
    Now that makes me curious about how you manage to shoot hand held with mirror delay without losing track of whatever is in front of the camera?

    Maybe this has something to do with coordination skills. Or maybe more doing and less thinking

    For example, I have also found I can with practice and perseverance improve my manual focusing (using the technique Marc so kindly suggested in a different post) but have not yet got to the point where I am confident doing so in a critical situation.

  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Now that makes me curious about how you manage to shoot hand held with mirror delay without losing track of whatever is in front of the camera?

    Maybe this has something to do with coordination skills. Or maybe more doing and less thinking

    For example, I have also found I can with practice and perseverance improve my manual focusing (using the technique Marc so kindly suggested in a different post) but have not yet got to the point where I am confident doing so in a critical situation.
    The mirror delay is measured in micro seconds, and is virtually imperceptible in normal use ... which sounds like voodoo, but in practice actually makes a difference.

    The manual focus suggestion does require "more doing" until it become muscle memory reflex. Previous habits took years to ingrain themselves, so any new techniques take time. BTW, it was a journalist that taught me that technique years ago, it wasn't my idea.

    - Marc

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Mirror slap effect - Contax 645 vs Hasselblad H

    Quote Originally Posted by erlingmm View Post
    You can set mirror up, if there is a set-up where you don't need the finder right before you shoot?
    Yes, that would be effective if on a tripod and locked down shooting a set image. My comment was more about hand-held work in ambient requiring lower shutter speeds where the shutter vibration may play a role in micro sharpness. I often work with the S2 on a mono-pod when needing to be mobile and somewhat spontaneous yet want a bit sharper result at questionable shutter speeds.

    It takes a while to get used to how the S camera accomplishes use of the leaf shutter because the focal plane shutter releases then the camera shoots ... and while it is a very fast sequence, it is still oddly unnerving at first ... almost feels like a bit of a delay after using the camera in focal plane mode.

    - Marc

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •