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Thread: flash for fill and around the house

  1. #1
    Super Duper
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    flash for fill and around the house

    I want a flash for fill and shooting around the house etc. mainly use for my Hy6 - I canr decide between the Metz 45CL4dig and the Metz54 (which I could stick direktly to the camera (at the side when using WLF or on top of the 90degree viewfinder).
    I am tending towards the lighter 54. The 54 would also be a size I would still be able to use with the M8.
    Any opinion regarding the 45 vs 54?
    Thanks, Tom

  2. #2
    ddk
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I want a flash for fill and shooting around the house etc. mainly use for my Hy6 - I canr decide between the Metz 45CL4dig and the Metz54 (which I could stick direktly to the camera (at the side when using WLF or on top of the 90degree viewfinder).
    I am tending towards the lighter 54. The 54 would also be a size I would still be able to use with the M8.
    Any opinion regarding the 45 vs 54?
    Thanks, Tom
    Hi Tom,

    I don't have the HY6 but my experience with a large side flash like Metz 45, actually the 75 and my Contax 645 with a Leaf DB wasn't a pleasant one, specially if you're considering using a zoom lens with it, way too top heavy big and clumsy, I was struggling more with keeping the camera straight than taking pictures, I'd go with the smaller flash.

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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Hi Tom,

    I don't have the HY6 but my experience with a large side flash like Metz 45, actually the 75 and my Contax 645 with a Leaf DB wasn't a pleasant one, specially if you're considering using a zoom lens with it, way too top heavy big and clumsy, I was struggling more with keeping the camera straight than taking pictures, I'd go with the smaller flash.
    Thanks David,
    I was afraid of the handlin and therefore I got the Metz 54 yesterday. Now I wait for the Rollei SCA Adapter (but can use it in auto)

  4. #4
    ddk
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thanks David,
    I was afraid of the handlin and therefore I got the Metz 54 yesterday. Now I wait for the Rollei SCA Adapter (but can use it in auto)
    You'll see that the Auto is a lot more accurate than the TTL, actually I found mine very accurate, more than 90% of the time, from 3-9 meters in Auto. I don't like TTL, even with my Nikon system.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    I use a couple sets of Elinchrom rangers as well as a couple Elinchrom RX monos. I use skyports and meter with a sekonic. Exposure is set accordingly.
    -bob

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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thanks David,
    I was afraid of the handlin and therefore I got the Metz 54 yesterday. Now I wait for the Rollei SCA Adapter (but can use it in auto)
    Hi Tom

    I have the Metz 54 with a SCA module for both my Nikons and Hasselblads. Unit works well (sometimes flashes just for the hell of it though!) but no doubt is still heavy. I usually use it with the camera mounted on a flash rail which has a vertical grip on which to mount the flash head and to steady the whole rig. Nice thing is that the vertical grip has a rotating passive shoe so you can easily rotate and tilt the head. Nice!

    Woody

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    You'll see that the Auto is a lot more accurate than the TTL, actually I found mine very accurate, more than 90% of the time, from 3-9 meters in Auto. I don't like TTL, even with my Nikon system.
    Interesting that you say that. I have exactly the same experience using my Metz 70. Had I known earlier, I could have saved a bunch of moneys that I paid to get those adapters for different cameras (not to mention the hassle, unsuccessfully trying to convince the Thai distributor that it's his responsibility, not mine, to pay for the shipping from Germany).

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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hi Tom

    I have the Metz 54 with a SCA module for both my Nikons and Hasselblads. Unit works well (sometimes flashes just for the hell of it though!) but no doubt is still heavy. I usually use it with the camera mounted on a flash rail which has a vertical grip on which to mount the flash head and to steady the whole rig. Nice thing is that the vertical grip has a rotating passive shoe so you can easily rotate and tilt the head. Nice!

    Woody
    Woody, woudlnt in this case 45 ct4 be easier if you want to choose a flash rail and handgrip?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    You'll see that the Auto is a lot more accurate than the TTL, actually I found mine very accurate, more than 90% of the time, from 3-9 meters in Auto. I don't like TTL, even with my Nikon system.
    Exactly and here is the real issue . TTL was designed to use with film and reads off the film plane which it was more accurate than A mode but with digital there is no film to read off of . It reads the sensor which does not give off the same type of accuracy to read from. I have better luck and more accurate results in digital with using just A mode and let the flash take over the readings instead of the sensor. My Metz is setup for TTL on my Phase body but many times i will just use A mode like heavy event shots with really dark backgrounds. My mode of operation is as simple as you can get camera on manual shutter about 1/60 on A mode set to around 6.8 and let it rip. I get nice natural ambient in there along with nice flash used in a stofen pointed up. I need more power i angle the flash head down slightly as more juice is needed. If not the Metz 54 than i will go to real strobes with my Ranger or Elinchrom mono's.

    I do accept consulting fee's . LOL
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    The 54 is probably fine for just fill. Problem is that on-camera it'll be pretty flat lighting for anything other than a just that touch of fill. The 54 is better at bounce with the mini front-fill turned on to put a sparkle in the eyes. It is at it's very best off-camera even for fill work ... on a flip bracket or hand-held.

    IMO, the TTL modules are worth every penny IF you use an off-camera cord, since: 1) the focus assist is located in the shoe above the lens, and 2) it's reading the light at-camera, NOT off-camera as it would with the flash set to "A" using a dumb module installed the SCA 3008 hot shoe unit.

    For off-camera works, Metz is behind in technology compared to Nikon's and Canon's flash systems. I use the Nikon Commander for cord free creative lighting just like I once used the Canon STE-2 for the same thing. While neither of those infrared off-camera solutions are very good at any distance unless in a clear line of sight, they most certainly blow away being tethered to a cord, even if only mounted to a flip bracket with a quick release so the flash can be removed at will and placed creatively for effect.

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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    FWIW, I use the 54 on a bracket via a 3008A cord and TTL adapter on my Mamiya, and it works great for normal indoor fill.
    Jack
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  12. #12
    ddk
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Interesting that you say that. I have exactly the same experience using my Metz 70. Had I known earlier, I could have saved a bunch of moneys that I paid to get those adapters for different cameras (not to mention the hassle, unsuccessfully trying to convince the Thai distributor that it's his responsibility, not mine, to pay for the shipping from Germany).
    I agree with you regarding the foot adaptors, they're little more than convenience to transfer some basic information between the camera and the flash which you can just as easily set manually, but its nice to have if you're changing apertures often in your shoot.

    Until the S5(D200 body) with iTTL none of my other cameras could be trusted in TTL mode and with Metz's great Auto why bother, but its different with the S5 as well as all the new D series Nikons. iTTL is a valid alternative to Auto and sometimes even the better choice but still limited imo, but you need the Metz 58 series or an SB 800 to take full advantage of Nikon's creative lighting system which is really great and convenient. That said I can tell you that Contax 645's TTL system is useless.

  13. #13
    ddk
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The 54 is probably fine for just fill. Problem is that on-camera it'll be pretty flat lighting for anything other than a just that touch of fill. The 54 is better at bounce with the mini front-fill turned on to put a sparkle in the eyes. It is at it's very best off-camera even for fill work ... on a flip bracket or hand-held.
    Problem is battery life and recharge time with both flashes on, you can get the same results using a bounce card and without having to deal with color casts from reflecting walls or ceiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, the TTL modules are worth every penny IF you use an off-camera cord, since: 1) the focus assist is located in the shoe above the lens, and 2) it's reading the light at-camera, NOT off-camera as it would with the flash set to "A" using a dumb module installed the SCA 3008 hot shoe unit.

    For off-camera works, Metz is behind in technology compared to Nikon's and Canon's flash systems. I use the Nikon Commander for cord free creative lighting just like I once used the Canon STE-2 for the same thing. While neither of those infrared off-camera solutions are very good at any distance unless in a clear line of sight, they most certainly blow away being tethered to a cord, even if only mounted to a flip bracket with a quick release so the flash can be removed at will and placed creatively for effect.
    The Metz 58-AF-1 has all the functionality of the SB-800 with easier menus and imo superior Metz quality. I don't use strobes that often and I still need to read the manual almost every time when I'm setting up the SB-800, the menus drive me crazy but not with any of my Metz lights.

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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Woody, woudlnt in this case 45 ct4 be easier if you want to choose a flash rail and handgrip?
    Probably so Tom but I have had the 54 for several years now and don't want to spend more money. My next flash purchase will be strobes of some sort. The 54 works very well on the rail (the camera is also attached to the rail using the tripod socket) so functionality is great.

    Woody

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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Problem is battery life and recharge time with both flashes on, you can get the same results using a bounce card and without having to deal with color casts from reflecting walls or ceiling.



    The Metz 58-AF-1 has all the functionality of the SB-800 with easier menus and imo superior Metz quality. I don't use strobes that often and I still need to read the manual almost every time when I'm setting up the SB-800, the menus drive me crazy but not with any of my Metz lights.



    Battery life? Really? I use flash a lot, and shoot weddings for 6 to 8 hours straight on a set of 2900 mAh batteries no sweat. Yes, bounce cards work (obviously), I didn't specify bounce off ceilings, or walls ... just "bounce." But I do admit that the Metz is more power hungry than the Nikon SB900 even with the secondary flash shut off.

    Better quality? "Really?" IMO and in my experience, the Metz quality isn't any better than the Nikon flashes, case in point is that the SB900 has a metal hot shoe and my 54MZ-3 Metz doesn't ... and the battery door to the Nikons is far more sturdy than the flimsy one of the Metz. I wish they'd fix that, it's annoying.

    Functionality? forgett the SB800 and compare apples-to-apples. Metz 58 AF-1 does not nearly have all the functionality of the SB900. The Metz doesn't have an off-camera terminal at all. The Zoom head of the Nikon is 12mm to 200mm, the Metz is 18mm to 105mm ... which makes it useless when using a 12 to 24 Nikon lens or a 70-200VR. Not to mention that the Nikon recycles faster than the Metz. The SB900 has automatic gel color ID and auto sets the Nikon camera's WB to match without screwing around with the menu at all. The SB900 has an analog switch for wireless work unlike the SB800 and Metz 58 which makes you go to the menu for that feature. The SB900 has a distance Priority Manual Flash setting which is a God sent when using non-CPU Zeiss manual focus lenses ... etc., etc, etc.

    I have a pile of Metz flashes and they are very good, but let's keep it real ... when a maker does a good job with a dedicated flash they should get credit. And Nikon got the SB900 right from everything I've experienced so far.

  16. #16
    ddk
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Battery life? Really? I use flash a lot, and shoot weddings for 6 to 8 hours straight on a set of 2900 mAh batteries no sweat. Yes, bounce cards work (obviously), I didn't specify bounce off ceilings, or walls ... just "bounce." But I do admit that the Metz is more power hungry than the Nikon SB900 even with the secondary flash shut off.
    I don't own the SB900 but its good to know, my comment really had to do with the use of the secondary flash on the Metz.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Better quality? "Really?" IMO and in my experience, the Metz quality isn't any better than the Nikon flashes, case in point is that the SB900 has a metal hot shoe and my 54MZ-3 Metz doesn't ... and the battery door to the Nikons is far more sturdy than the flimsy one of the Metz. I wish they'd fix that, it's annoying.
    I was comparing the 54 & 58 to my SB600 & 800 strobes, my experience has been that the Metz lights were generally more accurate on a more consistent basis than the Nikons, specially in Auto mode which I use most, I wasn't talking about build quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Functionality? forgett the SB800 and compare apples-to-apples. Metz 58 AF-1 does not nearly have all the functionality of the SB900. The Metz doesn't have an off-camera terminal at all. The Zoom head of the Nikon is 12mm to 200mm, the Metz is 18mm to 105mm ... which makes it useless when using a 12 to 24 Nikon lens or a 70-200VR. Not to mention that the Nikon recycles faster than the Metz. The SB900 has automatic gel color ID and auto sets the Nikon camera's WB to match without screwing around with the menu at all. The SB900 has an analog switch for wireless work unlike the SB800 and Metz 58 which makes you go to the menu for that feature. The SB900 has a distance Priority Manual Flash setting which is a God sent when using non-CPU Zeiss manual focus lenses ... etc., etc, etc.
    No comments on the SB900 which I don't have, considering the price and the flash generation, apples to apples is SB-800 vs Metz 58 and that's all I can comment on.

    Your last sentence regarding the "distance Priority Manual Flash" what is this exactly and what's its purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I have a pile of Metz flashes and they are very good, but let's keep it real ... when a maker does a good job with a dedicated flash they should get credit. And Nikon got the SB900 right from everything I've experienced so far.
    I never intended to say that the Nikon flashes were bad, specially about the SB900 which I don't own, just that I found the Metz strobes better in use than their equivalent Nikons up to SB-800. Glad we had this conversation maybe I have to look at the SB-900 sometime in the near future.

  17. #17
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    Re: flash for fill and around the house

    I have used the SB800 for some time now and also like quite a bit.
    Nice size, I use it ttl with the D3 and in auto with my M8.

    I thought that I want to give TTL a try with my Hy6 and with the M8.

    I also like the build and smaller size of the SB800 better than that of the Metz54 (which I bought this week), however the Metz has the second small light which I like, and the TTL option. I will report how good it works compared to auto-mode.

    Happy Xmas, Tom

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