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Hasselbladish RX100

fotografz

Well-known member
Backlit sensor: RX100 II yes, Stellar no
Articulated LCD: RX100 II yes, Stellar no
Hot shoe: RX100 II yes, Stellar no
Optional EVF: RX100 II yes, Stellar no
Optional external mic: RX100 II yes, Stellar no
Built in WiFi: RX100 II yes, Stellar no
Piece of wood bolted onto the body: RX100 II no, Stellar yes
Price: RX100 II $749, Stellar $2,600+

"The Hasselblad Stellar redefines quality..." must be the piece of wood then.

Most European countries, Sweden included, have strict laws against misleading marketing. If anybody bothered to report the marketing of this product to the capitalist-eating bureaucrats at Konsumentverket in Karlstad, Hasselblad would have a tough time defending themselves.

I've been criticized by some for my relentless attacks of Hasselblad and their products. To start with, I've been an admirer of Hasselblad and their products all my life, and my reasons for not owning one, one of the MF Hasselblads, have been solely financial. I still consider buying a 203FE if I can find one for a reasonable price.

If I come to an airport and there's a queue of taxis outside, all Toyota Corollas, but I have been convinced by a driver that I should go with his luxury limousine paying him 4 times the normal taxi rate to get a more comfortable ride... if that luxury limousine proves to be a Toyota Corolla with leather seats and a golden Lexus logo (this is happening all the time is Asian countries), it's a scam and most people would recognise it as such.

This is exactly what Hasselblad is doing. They attach a piece of wood and their logo and say it "redefines quality". The only reason they can get away with it, if they do, is that there are enough ignorant people with loaded wallets out there. But that doesn't change matters. It's still a Corolla with a Lexus logo sold at a Lexus price. It's still a scam.

One can always claim that many run-of the-mill products are re-branded and sold as luxury items, but the real luxury products are mostly well within the tradition of each brand and they are mostly unique in areas that matter, although many are manufactured and/or assembled in low cost countries.

When Larry Hansen was appointed CEO of Hasselblad, he said: "Owning a Hasselblad is the dream of all serious photographers around the world and we will continue to make every effort to make that dream as accessible as possible for enthusiasts as well as professionals." (Hasselblad appoints new Chief Executive Officer). If this is what he means by making a Hasselblad accessible for enthusiasts, I am the King of Mesopotamia. I would rather call this "Making a Sony unaccessible".

I apologize for all these rants and for being angry about it, but I am angry; angry because the management at Hasselblad doesn't have guts enough or skills enough to develop a product that makes a difference and angry because the same management is doing their utmost to destroy a great brand.

Jorgen, I doubt that you'll find many photographers here on Get Dpi that do not agree that the whole "Lunar thing" is a travesty ... including Hasselblad users. Of all the things they could have done to expand on the Hasselblad heritage, who in their wildest dreams could have even speculated on such a bad one?

However, spreading your anger over it to the one thing they do right was where some of us drew the line. No need to make up stuff about the H ... which you have since recanted ... because the Lunar type products are more than enough bad news. Going on and on about it just sounds obsessively negative. Step outside and scream at Hasselblad's new owners ... you sound so angry, that they may even hear you in Sweden :ROTFL:

Who knows what the hell is going on at that company ... or for that matter a few other companies in Sweden.

I am a huge fan of Volvo cars, and my 2005 CX90 SUV is perhaps the best vehicle I've ever owned ... and newer owners tell me the same. At least Ford did not destroy the Brand's core appeal. They are now owned by a Chinese company who apparently also have enough brains to NOT screw with the product. They have posted record sales in China so far this year, so that is using the China connection to good effect. Conversely, once quirky Saab was destroyed by stodgy and bureaucratic GM who did things like rebadging their dumpy and lumbering GMC SUV with a Saab emblem:wtf: Hardly fighter jet inspired.

Maybe the investment company that bought Hasselblad needs a tax write off by deliberately causing it to fail :rolleyes:

- Marc
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Marc,
I thought I deleted that... oh well, I mean every word. I had a bad night, ear infection and two hours of sleep, met a cockroach when I entered the bathroom, so I took it out on Hasselblad, or rather Ventizz. I don't doubt for a second that the brains behind this must be hidden somewhere down there. There must be people at Hasselblad also who are not happy about these things.

The Saab example is a good one and shows the same lack of understanding for the philosophy behind the brand. There's one more commonality: Saab and Hasselblad are both famous brands behind excellent products with a strong personality, but they have both had problems becoming profitable for long periods of time. Maybe that's the price of genius?
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
What I ask myself is: is the Hasselblad logo really worth 1000 € extra ?
It can´t be about individualization as this can be done really nicely and way cheaper e.g. here:

sony rx100 gariz | eBay

The only possible explanation I now have is that really rich people buy this because its a scam and showing they don´t care a iota about money, kind of proof: look I know I just threw away 1000 € and I give a shxx about it ?
Like the guys who light a cigar with a 100 $ bill ?
Mabye that´s true snobism.
There may be stupid rich people who would do such things - but my guess is that it is a very small market - as you don't get rich being being intentionally stupid.

It really is a pity that Phase 1 /Leaf didn't buy HB, as it would have been a better partnership than the current one with Mamiya.

It just is very sad to see HB go this way.
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
Hasselblad like any tecnology brand, can "lead" or "copy"...

Its time for a wake up call for the DMF industry, lead again or die slowly...
Hurts for all that love the MF system like me seeing so many profissionals leave for the d800...hurts but its a reality, myself saw 4 this year in Portugal...

He need again a game changer in the DMF system...not by MP war but by big jump in advance body tecnology or a huge price drop in the entry-level system (31-40MP)
I agree, what DMF needs is a shake up!

With rumours of both Nikon and Canon fielding ≈50mp cameras soon, this change needs to happen sooner than later.
 

ondebanks

Member
It really is a pity that Phase 1 /Leaf didn't buy HB, as it would have been a better partnership than the current one with Mamiya.
"Better", in what sense?

Hasselblad had long acquired the former Imacon to develop their DBs...what more did they need?

Plus you can still put a Phase One or Leaf DB on a H4X.

Ray
 

pedro39photo

New member
I agree, what DMF needs is a shake up!

With rumors of both Nikon and Canon fielding ≈50mp cameras soon, this change needs to happen sooner than later.
Yes, we need a "Blackmagic" DMF camera revolution...
I think that is a limit for the 35mm MP because of diffraction, its almost impossible to shoot more than f5.6 in compacts and with d800e maybe f11.

The big shake up that we need in the DMF its in Body ( like blackmagic ) or in a big price drop to catch more professionals and advanced amateur with low budgets.

The base body of today DMF bodys are 10 years old...Hassy H1 and Mamiya 645 we need a big shake up...
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
There may be stupid rich people who would do such things - but my guess is that it is a very small market - as you don't get rich being being intentionally stupid.

It really is a pity that Phase 1 /Leaf didn't buy HB, as it would have been a better partnership than the current one with Mamiya.

It just is very sad to see HB go this way.
This is all guesswork of course, but I think an alliance with Phase 1/Leaf wouldn't help anybody, particularly not photographers since it would reduce the number of options. If I should guess further, Hasselblad has two problems, both self inflicted:

- While the H System works excellently for professional photographers, it never really appealed to the enthusiast crowd. It looks too much like an industrial tool, which it is.

- By making it a closed system, most amateurs felt that they were totally locked out and even among pros there were many negative reactions when it happened. I don't know how many opted out though.

I don't know how much Leica will gain long term by enabling the use of Hasselblad (Fujinon :ROTFL: ) and Contax/Zeiss lenses on the S cameras, but my guess is that it's quite a lot since it lowers the entrance price, again particularly among amateurs. What Hasselblad could do is selling the H4X for a low price ($3,000, 3,500 with lens?), enabling amateurs to buy a used $4,000 back and have a camera which would be functionally new for $7-8,000. I would be interested and I believe I'm not alone. This doesn't change the fact that it's a somewhat large camera, but at least they have painted it in somewhat more attractive colours now.

As it is now, the H4X is $5,000+. Add to that an H1 or H2 body for exchange and viewfinder with a total value of at least $1-2,000 and we are closing in on $7,000 without a back and in many cases also without a lens. That's the price of a brand new Pentax including lens and for most amateurs not an option.

There have been statements from Hasselblad at least twice lately that I can remember about regaining the enthusiast market, but frankly, they have done nothing that would tempt serious amateurs back in.
 

JorisV

New member
What Hasselblad could do is selling the H4X for a low price ($3,000, 3,500 with lens?), enabling amateurs to buy a used $4,000 back and have a camera which would be functionally new for $7-8,000. I would be interested and I believe I'm not alone.
I am not convinced.

You can buy an H2 now with a used back for that amount. It is not massively happening...

Your first bullet point about the H camera is very true though. It is an excellent camera but it fails to excite people. The same can be said of the Mamiya DF. People do not tend to get very passionate about these cameras. They are just excellent workhorses. The only MF camera in my opinion that could get enthusiasts excited is the Hy6.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I am not convinced.

You can buy an H2 now with a used back for that amount. It is not massively happening...

Your first bullet point about the H camera is very true though. It is an excellent camera but it fails to excite people. The same can be said of the Mamiya DF. People do not tend to get very passionate about these cameras. They are just excellent workhorses. The only MF camera in my opinion that could get enthusiasts excited is the Hy6.
The problem with the H2 is that

1. It's used, mostly professionally

2. It doesn't support all lenses, does it? I've never manged to figure out what is supported on what H model, which is again a weakness... with me and/or the system :)

+1 to the Hy6. It's simply a cut above, looks sexy, accepts most or all 6000 system lenses and can shoot 6x6 film... and is a bit expensive too. I guess I will get one eventually :chug:
 
So how long until we see cheap knockoff DIY kits for converting your NEX or RX into a Hasslebling? I'll take the purple pimp edition with hydraulics and spinning rims.
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
"Better", in what sense?

Hasselblad had long acquired the former Imacon to develop their DBs...what more did they need?

Plus you can still put a Phase One or Leaf DB on a H4X.

Ray
We'd have more innovative backs, an affordable 22mp version and a CFV with rotating sensor for classical V users ....:)

On the other hand, Leaf/Phase 1 would have a much more powerful camera at their disposal. :thumbup:

Phase 1/ Leaf are also much more serious about photography than Ventiz and their looney management.
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
Yes, we need a "Blackmagic" DMF camera revolution...
I think that is a limit for the 35mm MP because of diffraction, its almost impossible to shoot more than f5.6 in compacts and with d800e maybe f11.

The big shake up that we need in the DMF its in Body ( like blackmagic ) or in a big price drop to catch more professionals and advanced amateur with low budgets.

The base body of today DMF bodys are 10 years old...Hassy H1 and Mamiya 645 we need a big shake up...
I agree we need a new quantum leap in MFD.

Regarding pixel density and diffraction:

While in days past Adam's believed in f64, Bresson/Capa in "f8 and be there", it now seems that "f1.4 and bokeh" rule the world.

But - just as the D7000 paved the way for the D800, I believe the D7100 with its 24mp cropped sensor will pave the way for a ≈ 50 mp Nikon D4X.

Regardless of optical limitations, this will shake up the MFD world.

Or perhaps I'm :deadhorse:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,
I thought I deleted that... oh well, I mean every word. I had a bad night, ear infection and two hours of sleep, met a cockroach when I entered the bathroom, so I took it out on Hasselblad, or rather Ventizz. I don't doubt for a second that the brains behind this must be hidden somewhere down there. There must be people at Hasselblad also who are not happy about these things.

The Saab example is a good one and shows the same lack of understanding for the philosophy behind the brand. There's one more commonality: Saab and Hasselblad are both famous brands behind excellent products with a strong personality, but they have both had problems becoming profitable for long periods of time. Maybe that's the price of genius?
IMO, Hasselblad was hardly genius material. They let one opportunity after another slip through their fingers for lack of vision. They prattled on-and-on about the "square" and let some Japanese ceramics company who bought Yashica beat them to the punch with the very innovative Contax 645 system sporting delicious Zeiss AF lenses. Then they responded with the H camera but insisted that digital was just a phase ... and they were right ... Phase One!

Strong Brand personalities can't rest on their initial thrust of genius, they have to redefine it to meet ever changing on-going demands ... all while fiercely protecting their core Brand values.

To this day, I look at the spectacular 200 series Hasselblad cameras, and day-dream of what could have been. Nothing has ever felt as good in hand, or felt so good to work with, or looked so dammed serious as a piece of photographic industrial design ... to the point that IMHO everything else MF before or since is somehow junky in comparison. So what do they do? Discontinue it, forever dashing dreams of what could have been.

- Marc
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
To this day, I look at the spectacular 200 series Hasselblad cameras, and day-dream of what could have been. Nothing has ever felt as good in hand, or felt so good to work with, or looked so dammed serious as a piece of photographic industrial design ... to the point that IMHO everything else MF before or since is somehow junky in comparison. So what do they do? Discontinue it, forever dashing dreams of what could have been.

- Marc
You're nor alone apparently. On the used market, a 203FE sells for 50-100% more than a H1 in similar condition. If that shouldn't set off some alarm clocks in Göteborg, I don't know what should. I must admit I bought a brochure for the thing on eBay the other day, just to keep the hope going :rolleyes:

Interestingly, DHW Fototechnik, which one has to assume runs a very tight ship, has found it worthwhile to keep producing the Rolleiflex TLR including wide-angle and telephoto versions, and the 6008 AF, and the X-Act 2 in addition obviously to the Hy6. But they had to re-start from scratch and consider what the customer wanted rather than what financial wizards and cash-hungry investors see in their crystal balls.
 

ondebanks

Member
On the other hand, Leaf/Phase 1 would have a much more powerful camera at their disposal. :thumbup:
Yeah, you see that's where we disagree. You seem to forget that MFD is emphatically not a one-size-fits-all proposition. The H system works well for you. It would not work at all for me.

Specifically: I could never regard any camera as "more powerful" if it cannot take any 3rd party/adapted lenses, cannot be used at the focus of a telescope or microscope, has no fast shutter speeds, doesn't take a film back (Phase One became guilty of that too more recently, starting with the DF model)...

The photo below of the moon was taken by eyepiece projection into my old Mamiya 645AFD, to yield an effective focal length of around 3000 mm. No H-series body in the world can do this. Still think it's a "much more powerful camera"?

You wouldn't be the first Hasselblad user to be just a teeny bit blinkered as to the limitations of the whole H platform. I wonder if some of the allegations of "Hasselblad bashing" that get thrown around are simply over-reactions to others having to point these limitations out sometimes.

Incidentally, I completely agree with Marc re. the marvellous Hasselblad 200 series. With the fast focal plane shutter AND leaf shutter lens support, they avoided these limitations. If Hasselblad had developed that line further, adding autofocus and maybe integrating the winder grip into the body, it could have been the bees knees - something like the Hy6, but even better.

Ray

 

markymarkrb

New member
Wow, never did I think my post would spark so much conversation. All I wanted to say was I hope Hasselblad doesn't lose its grip on medium format, I want a digital XPAN and no more Sony hand me downs

Mark
 

Swissblad

Well-known member
Yeah, you see that's where we disagree. You seem to forget that MFD is emphatically not a one-size-fits-all proposition. The H system works well for you. It would not work at all for me.

Ray

Actually I'm a classic V user and occasional H user. :angel:

Nice moon BTW.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Hasselblad like any tecnology brand, can "lead" or "copy"...

I love the H system, and i think that they still have the best DMF body of the market ( Leica S its great but its more a big 35mm system, no really interchangeable DMF)

But i am afraid this new core bussines of PIMP others models, with no technology added value to original model its dangerous for the Hasselblad image brand...

Its time for a wake up call for the DMF industry, lead again or die slowly...
Hurts for all that love the MF system like me seeing so many profissionals leave for the d800...hurts but its a reality, myself saw 4 this year in Portugal...

He need again a game changer in the DMF system...not by MP war but by big jump in advance body tecnology or a huge price drop in the entry-level system (31-40MP)

My dream its a Hassy H6D with "just" 50MP made with top Sony Cmos sensor, 400-800 working ISO...and a more affordable price point to more profissionals and advance amateurs

I think what is interesting about what people think MFD needs is that often descriptions sound like 35mm. Already, there is a product close to what you describe above - the H5D-40.

However, when I look at your specs, it makes me wonder why someone would pay the price for that when they can shoot the same specs in 35mm format for less. Certainly 40mp - 50mp and higher will emerge from 35mm. In fact, the megapixel wars that MFD has been accused of in the past have caught on with everyone else - if anything, 35mm is competing against SmartPhones more than they are trying to catch MFD, when it comes to pixel counts. Resultingly, MFD will always be bigger. More than anything else, that must always remain their advantage. Otherwise, they change into something different, not medium format, and it remains to be seen how well they compete in a different arena, native technical prowess notwithstanding.

Creating a lower price point for MFD with smaller specs and without any of the cutting edge technology of the higher end products won't do much to extend their success, IMO. At any rate, it won't add much to the bottom line for MFD manufacturers.

That doesn't mean I don't agree that lower prices wouldn't spur more buyers for MFD. I just don't feel that this is what makes a real difference for MFD. To me, what keeps them relevant is the middle and high end, where the technology is pushed forward (and the profitability sustains R&D and growth, or at least continuation).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 
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