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Thread: Something from the rumour machine..

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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Something from the rumour machine..

    Canon Looking to Medium Format for Growth? « Canon Rumors

    Probably just hot air but who knows..

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Hasselblad's latest accounts are pretty poor, I don't think it would be a big expense for Canon to buy then.

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    We'll the article states that Canon has already made an investment in a European MF company. What company is trying to do a CMOS sensor in MF and needs a new body to boot? Phase perhaps (see the link for the NL source - they seems to think so as well)?

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    They could try to commoditize the Leica S. Basically pick up the design and patent portfolio, then make their own body and firmware around their own image processors, and design their own lenses. EF lenses could be used in crop mode(s) if they keep the register short (which wouldn't allow for full 645). This makes more sense than one of the box camera designs with a protruding rear back. Those would be a very hard sell.

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    If this is the case Canon would only have one logical choice .
    Phase One. Everything else seems to be nonsense.

    see also here

    Canon Stepping Into Medium Format to Grow? | CanonWatch CanonWatch

    I would wholeheartedly welcome such a move.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    I wonder which is shrinking faster though, compacts or digital MF? If I were canon I don't think I'd bother, I'd bring out the 46 megapixel whatevertheycallit and just sit back and enjoy the show.
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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    If anybody, it will be Phase 1 - HB is too looney to join such a venture....

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Is this the rumored new Phase One camera?









    Probably not likely, but it would be awesome.

    I guess we're almost up to the point where there are only so many pixels you can cram into a 35mm sensor, the coming wave of 40mp+ DSLRs may likely be the last big push in resolution for the format.

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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Is this the rumored new Phase One camera?









    Probably not likely, but it would be awesome.

    I guess we're almost up to the point where there are only so many pixels you can cram into a 35mm sensor, the coming wave of 40mp+ DSLRs may likely be the last big push in resolution for the format.
    I believe that the D7100 sensor scaled up to F.F is about 57mp...

    I hope Canon do buy into phase or Hassy,with their technology we could see an amazing camera..

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Related speculation: I wonder what would be on the horizon had Sony purchased Pentax rather than Konica-Minolta?

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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    Related speculation: I wonder what would be on the horizon had Sony purchased Pentax rather than Konica-Minolta?

    Perhaps a medium format camera with A.F Zeiss glass and exmor sensor...
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    After reading all the responses here, it now makes more sense why the MFD companies are struggling.

    People do not seem to want idiosyncratic things anymore. They rationally want homogenization. An odd trait for a creative endeavor.

    While it obviously is cost thing, it seems not many place any value what-so-ever on differentness ... which intensifies the cost disparity even more.

    Kinda goes right along with what is happening in photography itself. Homogenization, sameness, a Borg collective of imagery.

    Perhaps it is time to bail and go back to drawing and painting where the tools hold almost no sway over the creative output ... having remained basically the same since the days of cave painting ... sticks of burnt wood, colors from mother nature, and animal hair on a stick.
    Everything except Acrylics ... Acrylics are the CMOS of the art world.

    - Marc
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    I believe that the D7100 sensor scaled up to F.F is about 57mp...
    Better be shooting at f/5 or less unless you want diffraction mocking your resolution figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    After reading all the responses here, it now makes more sense why the MFD companies are struggling.

    People do not seem to want idiosyncratic things anymore. They rationally want homogenization. An odd trait for a creative endeavor.

    While it obviously is cost thing, it seems not many place any value what-so-ever on differentness ... which intensifies the cost disparity even more.

    Kinda goes right along with what is happening in photography itself. Homogenization, sameness, a Borg collective of imagery.

    Perhaps it is time to bail and go back to drawing and painting where the tools hold almost no sway over the creative output ... having remained basically the same since the days of cave painting ... sticks of burnt wood, colors from mother nature, and animal hair on a stick.
    Everything except Acrylics ... Acrylics are the CMOS of the art world.

    - Marc
    Autofocus that f'ing works is too much to ask?





    I'm still on the MF fence, but I did just buy the new 24-70 II for my Canon... couldn't resist. (p.s. it's better than any primes I've tried in this range)

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    After reading all the responses here, it now makes more sense why the MFD companies are struggling.
    Marc,

    Please be more specific. Not all "MFD companies" are struggling.

    Sales, product releases, software progress, and general sentiment at Team Phase One are all very positive.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    After reading all the responses here, it now makes more sense why the MFD companies are struggling.

    People do not seem to want idiosyncratic things anymore. They rationally want homogenization. An odd trait for a creative endeavor.

    While it obviously is cost thing, it seems not many place any value what-so-ever on differentness ... which intensifies the cost disparity even more.

    Kinda goes right along with what is happening in photography itself. Homogenization, sameness, a Borg collective of imagery.

    Perhaps it is time to bail and go back to drawing and painting where the tools hold almost no sway over the creative output ... having remained basically the same since the days of cave painting ... sticks of burnt wood, colors from mother nature, and animal hair on a stick.
    Everything except Acrylics ... Acrylics are the CMOS of the art world.

    - Marc
    This quote come's to mind Marc..

    "But with the practice of photography came the sad knowledge that there is no royal road to the taking of good pictures. Although money might be lavishly spent in the purchase of costly apparatus, yet it was soon found that some knowledge of chemistry, and some artistic taste, together with practice in manipulation, and neatness and accuracy in working, were indispensable to success."

    —W. Jerome Harrison, History of Photography, 1887"

    Personally I like diversity,I dont want to live in a monchrom world..(excuse the pun.. ) and I like that Phase and Hassy etc are different to Canikon but I would like to see the tech that Canikon possesses applied to Medium format. for example Phase need a new body and it may as well be a very good one rather than an average one.. M.F needs to be at the cutting edge of tech if it wants to survive long term.

    I Think the Leica S was a great piece of work, Leica got a lot of things right very quickly..I still have my H4d-50 and it is an idiosyncratic camera but I enjoy using it and the file's are superb.. if anything I would like to see the weight lowered with magnesium replacing the steel body.. I don't know if cmos is better than CCD at base iso.. but it would be nice if the choice was available in M.F..

    I can't complain about A.F accuracy with either the S or H but it would be nice if they worked faster ...

    Rob

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    Member pedro39photo's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    [QUOTE]I believe that the D7100 sensor scaled up to F.F is about 57mp...QUOTE]

    I think that we hit the wall with the D800 on the 36-39MP full 35mm sensor because of the difracttion.
    My wife compact camera with small sensor and 16mp its a "fog" anything shoot more than f5.6, its scary to see the pictures at f11.

    Thats why the "next trent" will be big sensors on small cameras...

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    [QUOTE=pedro39photo;530852]
    I believe that the D7100 sensor scaled up to F.F is about 57mp...QUOTE]

    I think that we hit the wall with the D800 on the 36-39MP full 35mm sensor because of the difracttion.
    My wife compact camera with small sensor and 16mp its a "fog" anything shoot more than f5.6, its scary to see the pictures at f11.

    Thats why the "next trent" will be big sensors on small cameras...
    That could very well be the case..... interesting times.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    While I agree that Canon could be interested in launching a system with a larger sensor, I can't see that they have much to gain from a cooperation with any existing supplier of MF cameras, except if they want access to an existing lens mount/customer base. They have all the competence in-house to develop sensor, camera body and lenses and would probably be more interested in following the path of the Leica S, thus generating the need for new Canon lenses and other accessories while at the same time ensuring that users need other Canon gear like speedlights etc.

    Another thing to consider is that the EF mount has a diameter of 54 mm, 22% more than the F-mount which also accommodates a 35 mm sensor. In theory, that would indicate that Canon could increase the sensor size with the current lens mount with at least 22%, which would be around 44 x 29 mm, very close to the size of the Leica S sensor (45 x 30 mm). If they would do that is another question altogether, and there are probably good (optical) reasons why the Leica mount has a diameter of 80 mm. Or will Leica go for a larger sensor in the future?

    My conclusion would be that, if Canon is going for a larger sensor, they will probably do it alone, like they have done more or less every other camera on their own, regardless of system.
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    This quote come's to mind Marc..

    "But with the practice of photography came the sad knowledge that there is no royal road to the taking of good pictures. Although money might be lavishly spent in the purchase of costly apparatus, yet it was soon found that some knowledge of chemistry, and some artistic taste, together with practice in manipulation, and neatness and accuracy in working, were indispensable to success."

    —W. Jerome Harrison, History of Photography, 1887"

    Personally I like diversity,I dont want to live in a monchrom world..(excuse the pun.. ) and I like that Phase and Hassy etc are different to Canikon but I would like to see the tech that Canikon possesses applied to Medium format. for example Phase need a new body and it may as well be a very good one rather than an average one.. M.F needs to be at the cutting edge of tech if it wants to survive long term.

    I Think the Leica S was a great piece of work, Leica got a lot of things right very quickly..I still have my H4d-50 and it is an idiosyncratic camera but I enjoy using it and the file's are superb.. if anything I would like to see the weight lowered with magnesium replacing the steel body.. I don't know if cmos is better than CCD at base iso.. but it would be nice if the choice was available in M.F..

    I can't complain about A.F accuracy with either the S or H but it would be nice if they worked faster ...

    Rob
    I'm in a similar camp that you are in Rob. I love diversity and choice. Idiosyncratic items have always been a source of fun and even joy of use despite not being in the mainstream of functionality, or as easy to master.

    People have bitched about the bottom loading Leica M forever, yet I like it ... and with the film M, mastered the art of using it swiftly while shooting street and wedding candids. I like that Leica hasn't capitulated to the populist sentiment and kept the design and feel of the M consistent. Who knows what it would look like, or feel like in hand if they had given in (reminds me of a famous VW ad where all the public demands for change were added to the car which ruined its original simplicity and made it like every other car on the road).

    I kind of liked some original Minolta innovations that bucked accepted designs. Konica/Minolta introduced sensor shift stabilization in mainstream cameras rather than optical stabilization, and while the debate rages as to which is best (probably Optical right now), the fact was/is that any focal length you mount to a steady-shot camera benefits ... including the lenses in most need of it like a 50/1.4, 85/1.4 or 135/1.8 in low light.

    Unconventional thinking is what lead Hasselblad to True Focus. Simple concept, yet amazing in its functionality for those that take the time to master it. I wish ALL cameras had this feature.

    And so on.

    Like you, I am fine with the AF accuracy of the H and S cameras. I'm not sure Canon would bring anything to the party regarding AF speed with larger lenses requiring dead-on accuracy ... if that were true, then the 85/1.2-II wouldn't be so snail slow. For the way I use my S2P, I haven't been terribly inconvenienced by speed, and have learned techniques to better master it with moving subjects and the like. More use leads to better utilization. Practice seems a foreign concept anymore. People want to pick it up and have it do everything immediately.

    "Different strokes for different folks" I guess ... except it seems to becoming ... "same strokes for all folks" these days.


    I believe MFD CMOS is inevitable, and likely to be offered by Leica in the next S camera. I still do not like the CMOS solution in the new M, and unless that changes, I probably won't like it in a S. I should have kept my M9P.

    As to MFD struggling ... I mean the category. One company may be holding its own and be "team" positive, but as a category it is obviously under fire. Cannibalizing sales one from the other is not growth. If Phase One were a raging success, the new camera would have been here some time ago, maybe even in version 2.0 by now. I'm sure I'll get blow-back on such statements, but the hand-writing is on the wall to anyone with-out a bias and self-interest at stake. Regarding MFD of any brand ... I personally hope for the best, but have prepared for the worse.

    In conclusion, as Ellen says ... "Anyway".


    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 14th August 2013 at 05:32.
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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    My conclusion would be that, if Canon is going for a larger sensor, they will probably do it alone, like they have done more or less every other camera on their own, regardless of system.
    BUT - the rumour - and it's a rumour at the moment states:

    According to a source at [NL] Canon is already investing heavily in a European medium format manufacturer.

    So - it would seem - they are not going it alone.

    I wonder if we are going to see the Contax resurrected?

    In my view a very fine MF camera at the time.

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    but contax at that time was done by kyocera, hardly a european manufacturer.
    the brand belongs to zeiss again now, but zeiss isnt a MF manufacturer

    IF the rumors are true, my money is on the MF devision of Hasselblad

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by drevil View Post
    but contax at that time was done by kyocera, hardly a european manufacturer.
    the brand belongs to zeiss again now, but zeiss isnt a MF manufacturer

    IF the rumors are true, my money is on the MF devision of Hasselblad
    If that is true - I would be very happy.

    BTW - Zeiss reserved the right to use the Contax® brand name.

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Marc,

    The 85/1.2 may be slow at AF, but the same cannot be said for the 135/2 or the much larger and faster focussing 400/2.8 and 500/4. I think Canon could bring a lot to this party.

    Best,

    Matt
    Last edited by MGrayson; 14th August 2013 at 05:39.

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Marc, why would you not be welcoming the 'one size fits all' bottom line that we are driving towards? At that point it is all, every single bit, the artist. Not the tool or the mastery of the tools. As you said, back to the days of art without cameras. A that point it becomes the vision alone. IMO, bring it on. That's when the artists will prevail however mediocre the medium may become. The medium will become irrelevant. Finally.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Blogger "Fake Chuck Westfall" made this comment in an article about phase one...

    " Cuz lemme tell ya Hakonsson, you guys are ****ing going down in 2014! You’ll hear more about this in a few months. That’s all I’m gonna say right now."

    This is the article.. Phase One is going down | Fake Chuck Westfall

    I presume this was a hint that Canon are entering M.F...

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    BUT - the rumour - and it's a rumour at the moment states:

    According to a source at [NL] Canon is already investing heavily in a European medium format manufacturer.

    So - it would seem - they are not going it alone.

    I wonder if we are going to see the Contax resurrected?

    In my view a very fine MF camera at the time.
    Contax is out of the question. Although Zeiss has got the rights to the name back, I believe the design of the camera body and probably also the lens mount still belongs to Kyocera.

    Phase One? I can see that Phase could gain from having Canon design and make a body, but would they keep the Mamiya mount? Too many chefs. Looks chaotic to me.

    Hasselblad would give them access to a large customer base, a lens mount and some good software, but what would they call them? Canonblad? I would believe the current owner of Hasselblad needs the brand name to underpin the high-tech exclusivity of their luxury gadgets. Apart from the latter, Hasselblad would be my bet, if the rumours are true.

    Rollei? They could probably need some money and a Canon sensor would really make them stand out, hopefully in a positive way. The selection of AF lenses for Rollei is also somewhat limited, and an ultra WA lacks altogether. This would be my favourite marriage, but too good to be true?

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Marc, why would you not be welcoming the 'one size fits all' bottom line that we are driving towards? At that point it is all, every single bit, the artist. Not the tool or the mastery of the tools. As you said, back to the days of art without cameras. A that point it becomes the vision alone. IMO, bring it on. That's when the artists will prevail however mediocre the medium may become. The medium will become irrelevant. Finally.
    Because I have always subscribed to the axiom : "A Jack of all trades, and a master of none." as the path of action or selection to avoid like the plague.

    There is little to no technology involved in most drawing and painting ... never was. Photography was born of technology, and the various tools are part and parcel of how you impart a new vision. Barnack thinks to put motion picture film in a little still camera, and a new genre of photographic creativity is born ... and so on.

    Personally, I do not want all my tools to be white bread, do alls ... part of the Borg Collective to be assimilated into. Cell phones are already doing that.

    My 2¢.

    - Marc
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Rollei? They could probably need some money and a Canon sensor would really make them stand out, hopefully in a positive way. The selection of AF lenses for Rollei is also somewhat limited, and an ultra WA lacks altogether.
    I think you are on the right track and that DHW Fototechnik GmbH really is Canon's target
    Keeping film photography and printing alive!

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    After reading all the responses here, it now makes more sense why the MFD companies are struggling.

    People do not seem to want idiosyncratic things anymore. They rationally want homogenization. An odd trait for a creative endeavor...........

    - Marc
    I am reminded of something my grandfather said to me many times, "It's a bad carpenter who blames his tools."

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Maybe Pentax will be the customer for the sensor?

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Isn't PhaseOne employee owned? So, i suppose, they can easily decide to not take a senior partner in the boat.

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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by hogweed View Post
    Isn't PhaseOne employee owned? So, i suppose, they can easily decide to not take a senior partner in the boat.
    Yes. Employee owned for a long time now.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Marc,

    The 85/1.2 may be slow at AF, but the same cannot be said for the 135/2 or the much larger and faster focussing 400/2.8 and 500/4. I think Canon could bring a lot to this party.

    Best,

    Matt
    Hi Mat. The 85/1.2 is definitely slow, not "may be slow" I shot with both version of that lens for many years. It is slower AF than almost any lens of comparable size for my H4D or S2P system. The bigger Canon long lenses are much better (shot with a 300/2.8 and 400/2.8 also), but I suspect there is more room for big assed motors or something.

    I think what may not be appreciated is the physical differences in size and internal distances involved with MFD as well as less light reaching a smaller AF sensor when translated to the huge viewfinder, so it is AF with the priority going to accuracy.

    As part of the quest for accuracy for example, Hasselblad performs a separate AF function as part of the True Focus system other than APL (Absolute Position Lock) ... it also adjusts focus based on f stop to correct for any focus shift from full aperture AF to the f/stop selected.

    Leica tried to enlarge the AF area, but was criticized on accuracy ... which I believe was addressed with a firmware update. Mine is pretty quick, and very accurate.

    Frankly, I don't know the technical reasons all MFD cameras are slower to lock on relative to 35mm DSLRs, but I wouldn't exaggerate the comparison either. Yet, the fact is they all are, so it'd be interesting to really know why. It would be in the best interest of the MFD companies if the reason was clearer. I'm sure if it were an easy fix or the technology existed, one of them would have done it by now just to shut up the critics.

    All that said, who wouldn't want lightening quick AF in any AF camera they have regardless of format.

    Just as long as the AF isn't like the Pro model with the bad AF that Canon denied until overwhelmingly pressured to fix it, or the highly questionable AF of the 5D-II ... lest we place them on a pedestal.

    - Marc

  34. #34
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Something from the rumour machine..

    Marc,

    Oh, NO disagreement on the 85/1.2. I have a version 1 copy, and I love the look, but it is one slow focussing lens. I also never "upgraded" my 1DsII, as the AF problems on the pro bodies started right after that, so I'm not eager for Canon to take over the MF world.

    --Matt

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