90mm 4.5 APO-Digitar

[danlindberg]

Well, I just dove in on one of these from Alpa. They now have them in an aperture-only mount for e-shutter use. 300 grams, wow; that's 1.5 lbs less than the 90hr-sw. Narkin, I would have gone for yours @ Lula but I really need the sb34 mount. We will see how it goes...

Ciao,
Dave

+1
I'm ordering one on Monday. 20/23mm movements with the X1D + MAX. Irresistable.

 

[vjbelle]

The Cambo 90 Actar must also be using same enlarging lens as the Alpa 90. I would really like to have access to the aperture piece as it has the same spacing as the existing aperture/shutter mechanism used on Schneider/Rody lenses.

Victor

 

[narikin]

Just fyi, the full SK Apo-Digitar 90/4.5 was sold in SB version later in its life, I believe.
Had a proper 8 blade round aperture in the Copal aperture too. Just sayin'.
Alpa no longer sell it of course, since Schneider got out of MF tech lenses altogether.
It seems they bought up some dead stock 90/4.5 Apo-Componons and got those mounted, which is very creative of them!

 

[tcdeveau]

For anyone interested, apparently Alpa is doing a new limited release of this lens? Got an email about it yesterday:

https://www.alpa.ch/en/article/apo-digitar-4-590-mm-sb34-au

Edit: sorry! I didn’t see the above discussion about it

 

[dchew]

I'm going to spin it this way: without the Copal shutter it is the "weather sealed" version for technical cameras.

 

[f8orbust]

Although similar in design, the new shutterless Alpa 90mm isn't - at least on the basis of the lens data available in PDF format at the above link - the 90/4.5 Apo-Componon. It is the 90/4.5 Apo Digitar - e.g. actual focal length of 90.8mm for the former, 89.8mm for the latter etc.

Jim

 

[dchew]

I don't know, Jim. I cannot tell them apart aside from the form factor. Here is the mtf from Alpa:
https://www.alpa.ch/_files/90N_MTF.pdf

Here are the apo-componon pages from Schneider:
IDT_apo-componon_45_90_1.pdf

MTF_apo-componon_45_90_2.pdf

They both say f=89.8mm. The MTF's at first look different but they have different line pair groups and claim slightly different image circle diameters.

Schneider took down their apo-digitar MTF's, so we can't be sure what used to be there.

Dave

 

[f8orbust]

I remember reading some place that the Apo-Componon HM and the Apo-Digitar were identical, but the old PDFs I found seemed to indicate otherwise. I think. But then again, was there an Apo-Componon 90/4.5 and an Apo-Componon HM 90/4.5 ? In which case, the PDF I have is for the Apo-Componon, which may explain the discrepancy.

Jim

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Yes I saw the Alpa announcement today. Its optically very similar/identical, but what they are doing here is re-purposing the Schneider 90mm Apo Componon enlarger lens. I'd imagine it will be the same end result, but just 2 things: it has no shutter of course, so only can be used with Electronic Shutter, or a Silex/FPS unit. And it has a rather poor 5 blade aperture, not remotely circular, so will give strange halos, if shooting into the light.

Otherwise, yes SB is very useful to have for tilts/shifts. Hope you enjoy it.

It's interesting that Alpa are re-working enlarging lenses for some units. I can only hope that the legendary Apo-El Nikkor's 105mm's get mounted this way, but being as Nikon don't make them anymore, and they are still $2500+ used, it's unlikely.

This is not the APO Componon, it is in fact, the Schneider-Kreuznach APO Digitar version.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[narikin]

The weird thing is that a quality enlarging lens is optically computed for close focus distances, i.e. small magnifications of 4-12 times or so. Or an even narrower range for the very best lenses. Whereas a taking lens is computed for much bigger magnifications/ distances. That's why there are regular and macro versions of some lenses - different computations for different distances.

So in theory this 90/4.5 Apo-Componon formulation should be designed for close up/macro work, but not for distances/ landscape etc. For that is should be the Apo-Digitar formulation. But... no idea if Schneider operated at this level or not.

I owned and used a lot of the very best enlarging lenses in the past, and found the term 'Apo' was banded about cheaply, without meaning anything much. The only ones that were truly Apo were the Apo-El-Nikkors, those were far and away in a league of their own. (not Apo Nikkors, not El-Nikkors, but Apo-El-Nikkors) As soon as you looked through a focus scope it was clear - a level way above any of the offerings by Rodenstock and Schneider.

 

[narikin]

This is not the APO Componon, it is in fact, the Schneider-Kreuznach APO Digitar version.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Hmmm, ok Steve, if you say so. But the body, aperture/ iris, and markings are the same style as the Componon lens. And quite different in appearance to the Apo Digitar lens body (I have owned both). Maybe they took the Apo Digitar elements and put them in a Componon style body/mount?

It's all most odd, but quite honestly I trust Alpa, and am sure it will be a very good lens. The price is certainly right..!

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Hmmm, ok Steve, if you say so. But the body, aperture/ iris, and markings are the same style as the Componon lens. And quite different in appearance to the Apo Digitar lens body (I have owned both). Maybe they took the Apo Digitar elements and put them in a Componon style body/mount?

It's all most odd, but quite honestly I trust Alpa, and am sure it will be a very good lens. The price is certainly right..!

Hi Narikon, I confirmed with Alpa directly. I've sold some of the Schneider NK-O lenses in the past, and they do look like the Componon lenses when mounted that way, but this lens is indeed the 90mm/4.5 APO Digitar.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[danlindberg]

My order is in place and I am excited! I have worked with this lens before in its former configuration so optically I know how well it renders. Now in combination with the X1D I can throw it around without worrying too much of degradation. The compactness and featherlightness is fantastic - X1D+HXD+11mm extension+Maxbody+Schneider90 = 2.4kg in total. And I can (supposedly) go all the way 20mm left and 20mm right and flatstich for a pano. For panos I find it perfect focal length. Or, I can quickly go 10 up and 10 down for a flatstich ending up with a classic square image.
I can see myself thinking of this lens as a Swiss Army knife of lenses, very flexible usage.

Can't wait

 

[narikin]

Hi Narikin, I confirmed with Alpa directly. I've sold some of the Schneider NK-O lenses in the past, and they do look like the Componon lenses when mounted that way, but this lens is indeed the 90mm/4.5 APO Digitar.
Steve Hendrix/CI

Yes it's the body style of the original Componon 90/4.5 enlarging lens. (the later 'HM' 90/4.5 version added a kind of auto aperture stop down lever, but was optically unchanged, I believe)

One day we'll maybe know the inside story of this - was it a freshly commissioned batch of lenses? did Schneider have the components/ lens groups to make a small number of these for release, despite stating they were no longer in the MF tech camera lens business? Why is it in the Componon enlarging lens body/with its poor iris, rather than the Apo-Digitar body?

To accentuate the positive: I hope this is the first of a batch of stripped down (no shutter) lenses from the big manufacturers, at more affordable prices. Simple, lightweight, and ready for ES use.

(Sadly the Rodenstock 138mm Float lens, is 'floating' around $13,000 in a no shutter configuration!! so it seems it does not apply so widely)

 

[narikin]

To accentuate the positive: I hope this is the first of a batch of stripped down (no shutter) lenses from the big manufacturers, at more affordable prices. Simple, lightweight, and ready for ES use.

Oh, and I'd LOVE for Alpa to make some cones/helicals ready for 38mm 'Leica' threaded enlarging lenses. Just screw it in and use it. Done.

You can get cones w helicals from that guy on eBay, but would prefer an Alpa designed one, with spacers to get infinity right (not that these lenses are really for infinity work)

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Yes it's the body style of the original Componon 90/4.5 enlarging lens. (the later 'HM' 90/4.5 version added a kind of auto aperture stop down lever, but was optically unchanged, I believe)

One day we'll maybe know the inside story of this - was it a freshly commissioned batch of lenses? did Schneider have the components/ lens groups to make a small number of these for release, despite stating they were no longer in the MF tech camera lens business? Why is it in the Componon enlarging lens body/with its poor iris, rather than the Apo-Digitar body?

To accentuate the positive: I hope this is the first of a batch of stripped down (no shutter) lenses from the big manufacturers, at more affordable prices. Simple, lightweight, and ready for ES use.

(Sadly the Rodenstock 138mm Float lens, is 'floating' around $13,000 in a no shutter configuration!! so it seems it does not apply so widely)

It is possible that certain companies purchased some remaining stock from Schneider-Kreuznach in the end days of their larger format journey. We saw some evidence of that with the Cambo Actus/Credo 50 bundle that included an SK 90mm lens (after Schneider's exit):

https://captureintegration.com/credo-50-cambo-actus-db-bundle/

I have seen some other instances of what I believe to be Schneider lenses risen from the grave as well, and now this also from Alpa.

It would have made sense for them to purchase these in the waning days of SK View Camera lenses - the better lenses were really good, Schneider may have had a lot of remaining inventory, the price was probably really right, and who knows what developments the future might hold? And here we are.



Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[dougpeterson]

It is possible that certain companies purchased some remaining stock from Schneider-Kreuznach in the end days of their larger format journey. We saw some evidence of that with the Cambo Actus/Credo 50 bundle that included an SK 90mm lens (after Schneider's exit):

https://captureintegration.com/credo-50-cambo-actus-db-bundle/

I have seen some other instances of what I believe to be Schneider lenses risen from the grave as well, and now this also from Alpa.

It would have made sense for them to purchase these in the waning days of SK View Camera lenses - the better lenses were really good, Schneider may have had a lot of remaining inventory, the price was probably really right, and who knows what developments the future might hold? And here we are.

Schneider continues to make new manufacturing runs when properly motivated by the quantity of the order. For example, we (DT) continue to commission new production runs of the Schneider 72 Digitar and Schneider 120ASPH for use on the DT RCam.

 

[vjbelle]

Those two lenses (72mm, 120mm ASPH) are two of the finest lenses Schneider ever made. They remain staples on both 33X44 and 40X54 sensor cameras that I shoot. What is a minimum run? Can't be all that many......

Victor

 

[RLB]

Schneider continues to make new manufacturing runs when properly motivated by the quantity of the order. For example, we (DT) continue to commission new production runs of the Schneider 72 Digitar and Schneider 120ASPH for use on the DT RCam.

I can attest to Doug's comments about the 72mm and 120ASP by Schneider. We have both of these lenses in Arca R mounts and the for size and weight they are spectacular.
The 120ASP is the sharpest lens we've tested with the IQ4 for closeup work, its no wonder that DT uses them on their copy systems as well, also about 1/3 the cost of the Rode 105mm and more compact.

Robert

 

[dchew]

Received my Schneider f/4.5 90mm Apo Digitar (SAD) in the new shutterless mount. Since I have the Rodenstock 90hr-sw (HRSW), I can compare them directly. The reason for my interest in the Schneider is size and weight. If the quality is “close enough” to the hrsw, then I save 562 grams (933 vs 371 w/ caps). This gets me down to 8.3 lbs for a 4-lens 54x40 MF kit. I bet most “FF” DSLR kits weigh more. If I add the 250 SA for more reach, it totals 10.9 lbs. (5) lenses from 35-250 (24-162mm in FF).

This is the difference in size between the two. I included the 34mm adapter behind for reference, and because both lenses are "SB" mounts so they require that adapter.

Quick results on the IQ3100: At f/11, the SAD is nicely sharp to the edge where it begins to get dark around 96-98mm. The official image circle is 92mm. In my opinion, this is one time where Schneider has underestimated the useful image circle. It is not the HRSW, which is phenomenal everywhere in the image circle from f/8 until diffraction takes over. But the SAD sharpens nicely by f/5.6 unshifted and is what I would call very good at f/11 out to ~ 95mm. Vertical 18mm shifts are no problem (93mm IC), and horizontal 18mm shifts (98mm IC) are excellent to within a few percent of the corners at f/11.

Using this lens in the field is a dream. The 40.5mm filter thread is wonderful. I can permanently mount a small lens shade, and I already have step-up rings since my sk150 is also 40.5mm. I’ve used electronic shutter exclusively since the feature was released; for my use there are no downsides. It is different w/o the Copal shutter, though. On the negative side, it is a pain to use the lens cap vs. closing the copal shutter. I am used to dropping the lens cap into the camera bag so I don’t fumble around looking for it when I pack up or change lenses. With this lens you have to keep it in your hand or in your pocket. IQ4150 users won’t care since the whole black frame experience has essentially gone away. On the positive side, I have zero black frame errors from forgetting to open the shutter after taking a dark frame!
Here is a rough comparison:
HRSW @ IC-98mm f/5.6 = SAD @ IC-67mm f/5.6
HRSW IC-98mm @ f/8 = SAD @ IC-67mm f/8
HRSW @ IC-98mm f/8 = SAD @ IC-98mm f/11
…
You see the pattern: As things sharpen up, the SAD lags behind the HRSW by one f-stop or by std vs shifted IC. Rated 1-5, 5 being excellent:

Here is the f-stop series for the SAD at the image corner. Top row (tagged green) is the unshifted 40x54 IC – 67mm. Bottom row is shifted to ~ 95-97mm IC:

Although my test was not definitive, it does seem the SAD has less field curvature, at least at 5 meters. If I refocus the HRSW in the corner at f/5.6, results are excellent. Samples of the HRSW @67mm f/5.6; left is refocused, right side is before I refocused from the image center; you can see it is back focused. I should repeat the test to see if it was my focus error.

I tried the SAD up to f/16, but did not see a significant improvement at the extreme corners of the image circle. My conclusion is to shoot the SAD unshifted at any aperture I want. Shifted I will stick to f/11 or higher.

Dave

18mm L/R shift horizontal (f/14) and 18mm rise / fall (f/16), blended in PS: