Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Anyone tried out this? To digitize negatives using a MF back and Rodenstock digital lens?

    Would be great to compare this vs a scan from "cheap" drumscanner, Epsonv750 and other options.

    If it is good enough for large prints, then I could justify spending lot more on a new back instead of a new drumscanner.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,538
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    I have done some camera scanning with DSLRs, using stitching to achieve high resolution.

    Shooting 35mm film is relatively easy, but already at 645 film you get issues with film curling so you need a good film holder that holds the film flat. Wet mounting may be worthwhile.

    The achievable quality is certainly better than Epson V750, you can use multiple exposure with different shutter speeds (HDR) to get amazing dynamic range from hard-to-scan films like fuju velvia, and you can adjust focus to perfection assuming you have a good film holder and copy stand so you get corner-to-corner parallelism.

    A expertly made drum scan will be better though, the weakness of lighttable type of copying is haloing around high contrast edges, described here: High Contrast Edges | Cheap Drum Scanning

    I would say though that most would consider camera scanning "good enough", but if you want "the best", drum scanning is still it.

  3. #3
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    We do this at a high level with our Cultural Heritage Film Scanning Kit. For anything 4x5 or smaller, assuming use of an 80mp back and a 120 ASPH lens at f/8 our results are comparable to drum scans as measured by the FADGI standards for film digitization.

    For large institutions these systems are far, far, far more price effective on a cost-per-item-scanned (accounting for the cost of labor and facility overhead) because the negatives can be scanned as quickly as they can be placed into the holder (rather than a 4-20 minute scan time on a film scanner) and are imaged in raw (meaning that a session of 1000 negatives can be inverted, pushed/pulled, curved, rotated, cropped en masse etc without the open/save/close of a TIFF workflow).

    Note that there are no shortages of challenges involved. You'll need methodology/equipment to hold the camera and film in perfect alignment as even a small fraction of a degree of non-parallelism will cause a soft corner. You'll need to keep the film quite flat for the same reason. And you'll need a very diffuse lighting source to avoid/minimize the effect of edge rendition that torger referred to. And you'll need a very good lens used near-wide-open to avoid diffraction. And you'll need to manage the LCC workflow to ensure properly-even exposure and color across the frame.

    Solving these problems was quite time consuming for us, but then, our quality standards were quite high (and were being measured numerically for compliance with international standards).

    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Cultural Heritage Film Scanning Kit look interesting, but I guess it is not for free? And shipping outside us?

    It almost look like a repro stand, with a lightboard?

    If I could find some dias frames for 4x5, then much would be solved. I have a drumscanner now, but it is very large. Also need old OS9 on a G4 mac.

    Do anyone have some files from scanning with this film scanning kit and digital back?

  5. #5
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by IBICO View Post
    Cultural Heritage Film Scanning Kit look interesting, but I guess it is not for free? And shipping outside us?

    It almost look like a repro stand, with a lightboard?

    If I could find some dias frames for 4x5, then much would be solved. I have a drumscanner now, but it is very large. Also need old OS9 on a G4 mac.

    Do anyone have some files from scanning with this film scanning kit and digital back?
    Our Cultural Heritage products are shipped internationally.

    But this product, like all of our Cultural Heritage products are designed, built, warrantied and priced with institutional and large-volume service bureau in mind. Such entities are digitizing hundreds of thousands of pieces of film so the longevity and error-proofness of the equipment must be exceptionally high.

    If you're just digitizing a few hundred pieces of film every once in a while I'd advise you to build a cheap DIY rig. Your time-per-capture will be much higher as you fuss with things like alignment, but the setup cost (time and financial) to get to a rock-solid rapid-capture setup like ours is not going to make sense spread out over only a few thousand captures.

    We have samples from our system from a variety of eras, emulsions, and sizes including some cool glass-plate negatives. But I don't think they will be of much relevance to you. Better for you to build your own cheaper setup with minimal investment and see how good you can do.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 19th August 2013 at 08:51.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,173
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Doug, Hook me up!~ I'll be scanning my 617 film out of your office

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Leeds, UK
    Posts
    127
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We do this at a high level with our Cultural Heritage Film Scanning Kit. For anything 4x5 or smaller, assuming use of an 80mp back and a 120 ASPH lens at f/8 our results are comparable to drum scans as measured by the FADGI standards for film digitization.



    Just had a good look at the standards and they're probably a good basis to avoid awful archiving but to be honest they're fairly low standards to hit, even the four star standards.

    For instance you can get away with half of pixel of colour fringing across 20% of the image and still get 4 star rating. You can also pass with four stars with delta E's of 3 (or worse) which are quite visible differences (and you in areas you can have delta E (lab) of 6 for large areas of your scans and get away with it.

    The biggest issues is definitely the mentioned halos around dark/light areas which I've seen on every system that takes more than single point readings and I've come to the conclusion is inevitable apart from with drum scanners.

    These halation issues might not occur obviously in many images but they're there never the less.

    Everything is a trade off and it's good to know what those trade offs are.

    That said if all I had to match was the FADGI standards and I had tens of thousands of images to scan I'd be buying a system like the above (or possibly knocking up one based on a D800 - perhaps - depending on budget!).

    Tim

  8. #8
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by timparkin View Post
    Just had a good look at the standards and they're probably a good basis to avoid awful archiving but to be honest they're fairly low standards to hit, even the four star standards.
    If there was a FADGI 5-star we'd hit it . For instance FADGI requries (off the top of my head) 92% sampling efficiency and we regularly achieve 99-100% (as rounded to the nearest digit) across the frame.

    Unfortunately for us the government doesn't give out A+s.

    Trust me when I say we'd be delighted if the grading curve was even tougher .
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    This is from a thread I did last year but is a pretty good comparison.
    Using a Leaf Aptus2-80, PhaseOne 120mm Macro AF and 1:1
    Tango is "loafing" at a mere 6000PPI but hey, its for comparison
    Doug's set up would be better for sure, but this wasnt bad. Tango beats it, for sure, but was told to use a better lens and possibly a repro stand setup and maybe get closer. This is a color tranny, of course, but I havent seen any other comparisons like it.

    e
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    I found some B/W examples!
    As a followup to those tests last year, we won a contract with the Getty to use the Leaf/Phase but only for contact sheets (over a thousand of them)
    The job was a cultural history type thing of Cree Indians in Canada back in the 70's
    Selects were then scanned using the Tango.
    I will try and post some side by side comparisons of the drum vs leaf B/W but it wont be anywhere near a fair fight because the contact sheets were for reference selection only and the Tango is...well...a Tango drum scanner, and each file is oil mounted, analyzed and custom scannned PMT. There is no comparison. But I still think the Leaf, with a proper setup like Doug's and a better lens, may have been "close enough"
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  11. #11
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    This is from a thread I did last year but is a pretty good comparison.
    Using a Leaf Aptus2-80, PhaseOne 120mm Macro AF and 1:1
    Tango is "loafing" at a mere 6000PPI but hey, its for comparison
    Doug's set up would be better for sure, but this wasnt bad. Tango beats it, for sure, but was told to use a better lens and possibly a repro stand setup and maybe get closer. This is a color tranny, of course, but I havent seen any other comparisons like it.

    e
    What f-stop was the Leaf used at? Looks a bit diffracted. Might get better results at a larger aperture - with the caveats that alignment and flatness become even more important and lens-sharpness-at-the-corners is harder to pull off without switching to the lenses like the Schneider 120mm ASPH.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  12. #12
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    I found some B/W examples!
    As a followup to those tests last year, we won a contract with the Getty to use the Leaf/Phase but only for contact sheets (over a thousand of them)
    The job was a cultural history type thing of Cree Indians in Canada back in the 70's
    Selects were then scanned using the Tango.
    I will try and post some side by side comparisons of the drum vs leaf B/W but it wont be anywhere near a fair fight because the contact sheets were for reference selection only and the Tango is...well...a Tango drum scanner, and each file is oil mounted, analyzed and custom scannned PMT. There is no comparison. But I still think the Leaf, with a proper setup like Doug's and a better lens, may have been "close enough"
    I was just out at Getty last month. They have several of our systems on both the research side and library side of the institute. Great people as well.

    And man is their building and property beautiful! Meier was the architect, who, my friend was quick to point out was a Cornell grad (guess which college my friend graduated from).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Hi Doug,
    Yes, diffraction was inevitable because of our need to pull DoF even at that minute a scale, MF has none. So I believe that was at F16-F22. When we opened up to reduce diffraction it got fuzzier and we gave up trying anymore. The clients and the ethnographers wanted drum scans and got tired of us fiddling with the MFD setup.
    We will revisit the setup soon as a new project is on its way to us of thousands of film images from Pre-Wall Berlin; as well as a series from Afghanistan. We will wade back into the MFD scan/capture waters again soon once funding is a certainty. These are for the Corcoran and Smithsonian.
    The Getty is a nice museum, and has facilities on their campus, but in many cases, the artists or owners are not willing or able to send their images to them for capture.
    I am a "recovering architect" (CooperUnion then VPI class of '86) and am not a fan of Meier's work (imo, it doesnt hold up well over time, requires too much maintenence, and distracts from the artwork); but hey, everybody's a critic, right?
    I am a HUGE fan of Cornell, btw!
    Last edited by Egor; 20th August 2013 at 12:58.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    11

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    For DIY, what would be a good light source? Will flash be better than a LED based light? I researched the Kaiser lightbox. It seems that they offer some quality lightboxes. Will that be any good? For exmaple:
    Product code: K2423
    Manufacturer: Kaiser
    5000 Kelvin color temperature. Uses special fluorescent tubes for high color fidelity. Color rendition index CRI = 90-100. High-quality acrylic-glass plate of exceptionally uniform transmission over the entire visible spectral range

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    11

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    This is from a thread I did last year but is a pretty good comparison.
    Using a Leaf Aptus2-80, PhaseOne 120mm Macro AF and 1:1e
    The result looks very good. Do you have a set up picture? Also, what kind of light source you are using?

  16. #16
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Hi Doug,
    Yes, diffraction was inevitable because of our need to pull DoF even at that minute a scale, MF has none. So I believe that was at F16-F22. When we opened up to reduce diffraction it got fuzzier and we gave up trying anymore. The clients and the ethnographers wanted drum scans and got tired of us fiddling with the MFD setup.
    We will revisit the setup soon as a new project is on its way to us of thousands of film images from Pre-Wall Berlin; as well as a series from Afghanistan. We will wade back into the MFD scan/capture waters again soon once funding is a certainty. These are for the Corcoran and Smithsonian.
    We have several systems at Smithsonian as well .

    The use of f/16 would definitely account for the softness. Our results vis a vis drum scanning are considerably closer (with many medium sizes like 35mm slides going in favor of the MFD system) With the magnification that would be an effective f/22 which is strongly diffracted. But I totally understand the choice. That's the origin of the "over-built" solution we have; shooting at f/8-f/11 (to avoid diffraction) on a homegrown solution, even a very good quality one, requires such fiddling that the time-per-capture rate suffers greatly. Only with a very, very, solid setup can you truly hit the capture rate mass digitization projects these call for. Given you had a preference to drum scan the selects your solution and aperture selection make perfect sense. Our industrial-grade solutions aren't inexpensive and can only be justified when there is enough volume.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 20th August 2013 at 14:28.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    691
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by yongfei View Post
    For DIY, what would be a good light source? Will flash be better than a LED based light? I researched the Kaiser lightbox. It seems that they offer some quality lightboxes. Will that be any good? For exmaple:
    Product code: K2423
    Manufacturer: Kaiser
    5000 Kelvin color temperature. Uses special fluorescent tubes for high color fidelity. Color rendition index CRI = 90-100. High-quality acrylic-glass plate of exceptionally uniform transmission over the entire visible spectral range
    You're spot on with the needs for high CRI lamps, to me that plus even illumination are more important than colour temp (e.g. unfiltered tungsten lamps are full spectrum) and is true for any copy work. For a cheap setup you can actually rig up tungsten lamps through a diffuser, a lot of good tips for a dark room enlarger applies to this problem.

    If you can, check the light source with a spot meter to ensure the light is even.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    103
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    11

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ital-back.html

    Above was the discussion from last year on the same topic. Very informative!

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Yes, that is the same thread I think. I started out using a Macbeth or JustNormlicht light box, but ended up going with strobe through a diffusion panel. I think there is a pic of the setup there. very crude, very redneck, very effective.
    Since then we purchased some old Beseler metal neg holders for better flatness and a larger glass frame for contact sheets. Camera still held in place using a giant Cambo studio stand and extended arms, but the diffusion panel is a custom flat box held over the diffusion strobe head.
    I love the sheer output and speed of the strobes and the full spectrum light output. Also don't worry so much about camera shake at 1/10000 sec burst durations.
    Edge2edge evenness doesn't seem to be an issue when it comes down to such a small area.

    Doug, do you have an example of a 35mm tranny or neg done with your system I can look at? ....And dare I ask, borrow to drumscan and compare? we are interested and may have enough volume to justify your system (depending on what it's real costs are for us..we already own a 80mp back so maybe...)

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Might a setup with Rodenstock Digital Macro 180mm lens with digital back be better maybe? they should be high quality glass.

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    446
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    You know, when I look at the cost and high technical caliber of devices such as the one Doug supplies I wonder why someone doesn't make an effort and do a new take on the true archival device. That would be an improved model of drum scanner or scanning table. Clearly there is a market for industrial-level imagers or Doug wouldn't be selling his instrument. How about a linear scanner using structured illumination to increase dynamic range? That could be close to a drum in dynamic range while having the speed and convenience of a flat bed.

    After years of comparing spot, linear, and area detectors it always came down to the same conclusions. Area detectors have the advantage of speed and convenience. However, with fine detail there is a progressive loss of MTF with the area and linear scanners. This results from flare. There are also some strange behaviors arrays exhibit with highlights and when one part of the field is much brighter than another, but flare is the killer. It degrades MTF in density details and, more generally, anything beyond about 2.5D in optical density range. From what I could see the degree of loss depends on the proportion of the visual field being illuminated so linear detection is better than area.

    Area detectors in devices such as Doug's will always have the edge in volume and, really, what practical alternatives are there at the moment? The biggest problem with scanners is that no one has designed one reflecting today's state of the art in optical engineering. Seems to me that's an opportunity!

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Well, it should be a market these days for good scanning technology..


    photokina: Film & Film Cameras: Silver Halide

  23. #23
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    Doug, do you have an example of a 35mm tranny or neg done with your system I can look at? ....And dare I ask, borrow to drumscan and compare? we are interested and may have enough volume to justify your system (depending on what it's real costs are for us..we already own a 80mp back so maybe...)
    Absolutely.

    Shoot me an email and I'll send some examples over and get you information on pricing.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  24. #24
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Scanning negatives with Phase One and Rodenstock digital

    as far as glass, how would the 120 SK Apo Digitar 5.6 Normal lens work for this fitted to a Cambo WRS, with an extension of some sort to reach closer focus distance?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •