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Thread: P30 problems with line on images..

  1. #1
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    P30 problems with line on images..

    Hey guys, I know that this was addressed and phase played it off as a problem with adobe... So let me explain my problem and it's with phases program..


    Alright, in lightroom the lines show up as blue, and you process the files and the blue line is still in the file (blue line is in the middle of the file in the horizontal position of the sensor the line runs up and down vertically). This problem doesn't go away even after the file is processed (BTW there are other lines in the file that are more faint and blue but I think they're ISO banding)..


    Now with phases new capture one software, I get this single line that looks like a perfect straight scratch down the middle of the sensor. This line doesn't go away. It's noticeable in small viewing sized shots, and it's very detailed in 100% crops, even with the tiff is processed the lines still there, and very visible.

    Any solutions?
    Says main firmware is 2.5 then there are other firmwares and the CLD firmware or whatever you call it, it's at 2.2.3

    Here take a look:

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/...790c77d8_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3080/...ff5087d5_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/...29a4a6da_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/...f7028650_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/...3d6e3db9_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/...36ebd23b_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/...08c5ee73_o.png


    So what do you guys think, a firmware issue, or is this a hardware issue that cannot be fixed?


    Best,
    Adam

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Hey guys, I know that this was addressed and phase played it off as a problem with adobe... So let me explain my problem and it's with phases program..


    Alright, in lightroom the lines show up as blue, and you process the files and the blue line is still in the file (blue line is in the middle of the file in the horizontal position of the sensor the line runs up and down vertically). This problem doesn't go away even after the file is processed (BTW there are other lines in the file that are more faint and blue but I think they're ISO banding)..


    Now with phases new capture one software, I get this single line that looks like a perfect straight scratch down the middle of the sensor. This line doesn't go away. It's noticeable in small viewing sized shots, and it's very detailed in 100% crops, even with the tiff is processed the lines still there, and very visible.

    Any solutions?
    Says main firmware is 2.5 then there are other firmwares and the CLD firmware or whatever you call it, it's at 2.2.3

    Here take a look:

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/...790c77d8_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3080/...ff5087d5_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/...29a4a6da_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/...f7028650_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/...3d6e3db9_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/...36ebd23b_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/...08c5ee73_o.png


    So what do you guys think, a firmware issue, or is this a hardware issue that cannot be fixed?


    Best,
    Adam
    Every sensor used in digital backs (any brand) has at least one bad pixel. The sensors which are produced by kodak and dalsa which have zero bad pixels (out of the 22 million pixels on the chip) go to the government sector (NSA, CIA) for, no exaggeration, around a million bucks a pop, for (presumably, because they never are open about it) space-based and high-altitude based surveillance devices and the like.

    The fix is very easy, a map is made of those pixels which are bad and the digital back ignores the information from those pixels. This is done mostly in firmware, but also partly in software (which is why Adobe and Capture One might show different results). This is called "calibration" and every company does it (because every sensor has these bad pixels). When this map is made the effect of the bad pixels is nearly unmeasurable (and completely undetectable even by a trained eye). The back already interprolates color since each pixel is only one of the primary colors; where there is a bad pixel it simply interprolates without using that pixel for guidance.

    It sounds like the calibration file in your digital back is messed up somehow. Either the calibration has been corrupted or a pixel has spontaneously gone bad. With all the scores of customers we (CI) have this happens a few times a year, so it is a rare, but not unheard of phenomenon. If your back is in warranty the recalibration is free. If you have a Value Added warranty they will ship you a temporary replacement ("loaner") priority overnight while you wait for yours to be recalibrated. Otherwise you will have to pay for the recalibration through a Phase One dealer; contact one for pricing and time-frame.

    Otherwise a Photoshop action could be used to correct it, but you would have to do all cropping in PS, since cropping in C1 would change the relative position of the line.

    By the way, this is also possible with dSLRs (or scan backs, or multi-shot backs or anything with a sensor), but most dSLRs are
    - lower resolution (less pixels to have a problem)
    - limited in life by their shutter (less time to have a problem in)
    - are CMOS sensors; when a CCD has a pixel go bad it causes a line until properly calibrated; when a CMOS sensor has a pixel go bad it causes a single stuck or hot pixel until properly calibrated

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Thanks for clearing things up.....

    How much time does it take to calibrate a lens, and much is it usually... Does it have to go back to the motherland, or can it be done by a local dealer?

    best,
    adam

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Sinar supplies a "reference file" CD with every back. This file contains information about the CCD of the specific back in question, and is used to recalibrate, in case such an error happens. Do other back manufacturers also supply this file?

    Kumar

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    I'm not sure, I didn't buy the back yet...

    It's a P30, so if anyone knows the answer it would help me greatly..

    From what I've heard from the local dealer it'll cost $900 USD to fix if it's just in need of calibration, but this is from my local dealer, and the prices may be inflated...

    If it's a hardware problem, $2,800USD he said is the minimum I'd spend and it could be more!

    Best,
    Adam

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Every sensor used in digital backs (any brand) has at least one bad pixel. The sensors which are produced by kodak and dalsa which have zero bad pixels (out of the 22 million pixels on the chip) go to the government sector (NSA, CIA) for, no exaggeration, around a million bucks a pop, for (presumably, because they never are open about it) space-based and high-altitude based surveillance devices and the like.

    The fix is very easy, a map is made of those pixels which are bad and the digital back ignores the information from those pixels. This is done mostly in firmware, but also partly in software (which is why Adobe and Capture One might show different results). This is called "calibration" and every company does it (because every sensor has these bad pixels). When this map is made the effect of the bad pixels is nearly unmeasurable (and completely undetectable even by a trained eye). The back already interprolates color since each pixel is only one of the primary colors; where there is a bad pixel it simply interprolates without using that pixel for guidance.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    That's good information. Thanks, Doug.

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    It makes one feel very bad after reading the otherwise excellent explanation by Doug.

    I wonder if these manufacturers can give away software to remap their digital backs to correct such problems easily. In the past, I had done remapping of my P+S Canon cameras using a Russian Genius's software, and after making a firmware upgrade, all was fine.

    After paying a small fortune for these cameras (any brand), I don't like the idea of paying for a defect, which has formed without any fault of the user, after such a short period of usage. I hope my camera (if something like this ever happens) will have a better service understanding than the one outlined here.

    Best regards

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Thanks for the explanation Doug. I had this problem with the DMR (twice), and Leica tried to re-calibrate it, then wound up replacing it. They did not charge me. That said, your explanation is much better than I had been given before. I knew it was a dead pixel that set off a chain reaction as it were, but I did not know the further background.

    I will say that if you have not bought it yet, then don't. My experience is that if it happened once, it may happen again (it did for me anyway). Better to get a back that you don't have to worry about.
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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    If I buy this MFBack... Send it to Phase and they fix it and charge me the $900 USD that a Phase One official dealer quoted me, will they also give me some sort of warranty period with the back that states if the problem reoccurs within 6 or 12 months we'll fix it again for free...

    If that's the case, it might not be so bad to have it sent in.

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Yes, but what if it reoccurs again in 7 months, or 14 months? Then you are out another 900 dollars, plus more for shipping, insurance and the time wasted while it is in the shop. This is a buyer's market, you should be able to find another back that does not have problems at a decent price.
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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Quote Originally Posted by FromJapan View Post
    Sinar supplies a "reference file" CD with every back. This file contains information about the CCD of the specific back in question, and is used to recalibrate, in case such an error happens. Do other back manufacturers also supply this file?
    Kumar
    I don't know about Leaf or Hassy, but Phase One includes this information on the firmware in the back itself. Either system however can fail if a new pixel spontaneously fails. This is likely what has happened. A new, and previously unmapped, pixel has died. Like I said before, it's very rare, but it is certainly not unheard of (at least by the few dozen of us around the world that deal with hundreds of backs per year).


    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Does it have to go back to the motherland, or can it be done by a local dealer?

    best,
    adam
    It must be done in Denmark.


    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I'm not sure, I didn't buy the back yet...

    It's a P30, so if anyone knows the answer it would help me greatly..

    From what I've heard from the local dealer it'll cost $900 USD to fix if it's just in need of calibration, but this is from my local dealer, and the prices may be inflated...

    If it's a hardware problem, $2,800USD he said is the minimum I'd spend and it could be more!

    Best,
    Adam
    Since you did not buy the back from the dealer the dealer is under no obligation to do the repair at-cost. However, $900 is too high. You should contact another dealer.

    Hardware repairs (except sync port, motor ports, mulitport repairs) are very expensive if out-of-warranty. You're much better off buying an extension of warranty than to wait for a possible repair. All insurance (warranty being a form of insurance) is based on a ratio of expected income versus expected payouts and adjusted by the time-value of money ($100 today is better than $101 next year). But unlike most forms of insurance Phase One has a heavily vested interest in customers having repairs (reputation/loyalty/perception are all very negatively effected by out of warranty repairs), they factor that in to the price. That said $2800 is also too highly marked up.

    I very strongly suspect your back requires only a recalibration and not a hardware repair to address this line.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.agar View Post
    It makes one feel very bad after reading the otherwise excellent explanation by Doug.

    I wonder if these manufacturers can give away software to remap their digital backs to correct such problems easily. In the past, I had done remapping of my P+S Canon cameras using a Russian Genius's software, and after making a firmware upgrade, all was fine.

    After paying a small fortune for these cameras (any brand), I don't like the idea of paying for a defect, which has formed without any fault of the user, after such a short period of usage. I hope my camera (if something like this ever happens) will have a better service understanding than the one outlined here.

    Best regards

    Seyhun
    Agreed. That's one a hundred reasons we recommend our customers to buy the Value Added Warranty. Not only does that provide three years of warranty, but also a loaner shipped priority overnight so that you are never without a back. If the back is still in active use after three years (most are) then you can extend the warranty one year at a time while you are still in-warranty.

    When you have a VA warranty and there is a problem it is really really pain free. The loaner back arrives the next morning and some time later your repaired back arrives and you return the loaner. I've even been able to use the loaner program for try-outs. e.g. an H25 user had a repair and I had P1 ship a P45+ as a loaner.

    A used back with no warranty comes (on average) at a discount, and in an efficient market that discount would be exactly what the hassle-factor of a repair would be. But I have a feeling that the market mildly under-accounts for the value of the warranty/loaner (i.e. used backs are mildly overpriced).


    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Thanks for the explanation Doug. I had this problem with the DMR (twice), and Leica tried to re-calibrate it, then wound up replacing it. They did not charge me. That said, your explanation is much better than I had been given before. I knew it was a dead pixel that set off a chain reaction as it were, but I did not know the further background.
    Phase has a similar unwritten policy that if a repair is unsuccessful two or three times (done case-by-case depending on warranty, and the type of issue) then a replacement is given.

    I would wager Phase has a bit more expertise in this than Leica did during your recalibration. The DMR was/is an excellent but Leica's first go at support for digital products was a bit lacking. I'm sure there are many Leicaphiles out there hoping that Leica's partnership with Phase One for the S2 will include support/software/firmware (our competitive advantages) from Phase and lenses/ergonomics from Leica (their competitive advantages)

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    If I buy this MFBack... Send it to Phase and they fix it and charge me the $900 USD that a Phase One official dealer quoted me, will they also give me some sort of warranty period with the back that states if the problem reoccurs within 6 or 12 months we'll fix it again for free...

    If that's the case, it might not be so bad to have it sent in.
    Yes. A "repair warranty" will cover that specific procedure for 6 months. If you're working with a dealer and it's 6 months and two weeks, you can probably have it put through, but any significant period after 6 months and you'll have to pay the same. A pleasant bonus, which I don't think even most dealers know (it's in our dealer agreement in small print in the very back and in two different three-day training sessions they've never mentioned it out loud), is that a re-repair always comes with a loaner back but only if the dealer executing the re-repair requests it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Yes, but what if it reoccurs again in 7 months, or 14 months? Then you are out another 900 dollars, plus more for shipping, insurance and the time wasted while it is in the shop. This is a buyer's market, you should be able to find another back that does not have problems at a decent price.
    I've sat here for ten minutes trying to decide where I fall on this issue. It's a close call. Even I don't have enough points of reference to decide if a back which falls out of calibration is more likely to have it happen again; It is just too rare a occurrence in the first place. Once you have it repaired that defect would be covered by a repair-warranty for 6 months. That said, this is a buyers market and I guess if I had to pick a side, I would say keep looking. But only you can make that judgement call. You wouldn't be foolish either way.

    The bigger question I think you should be asking yourself is if you want to buy a back which is not in-warranty. I've seen some really cheap user-to-user private sales lately on eBay and LL (presumably because of distressed sales due to the economy), so I can definitely see why. Just like buying a foreclosed-on house though you need to be very diligent about buying a back from a private seller. That's why they pay me the big bucks!

    In any case, best of luck, and let us all know how it goes for you.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Wow that was a long answer. I'm going to go drink now!

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Yes thank you, great answer... I will surely keep you updated on the situation at hand.



    Cheers!

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Alright, here is the conclusion to the situation.

    I go back to the studio today to pick up the camera (figured I could just fix it, and it would be around the same price as the backs go for on these forums in the USA)...

    The guy tells me he changed his mind and didn't want to sell (which is fine, but the dishonest way in which he conducted business is not). He said to me, oh I didn't know you could fix the problem, so my wife said to just pay to fix it. I then said wait a minute you knew there was a problem with the camera and you didn't tell me. He said, well yes but you tested the camera and found the problem right? And I said, yes but I insisted that I check the files first before I buy, you were pushing to sell it to me ASAP, CASH ONLY no certified bank cheque (a lot of cash to have in my pocket BTW).. So then he said, well now that we know we can fix the problem, no need to sell... So sorry about having you come all the way back her. Now thats fine, everyone has a right to sell or not sell a product, and frankly the price was good... The problem I have with the seller is that he was so dishonest in the fact he thought he had a broken camera and was trying to pass it off to someone else. Then when I brought it to his attention that it would cost ME x amount of dollars to fix, he then realized that he actually never thought of fixing it, someone must of told him he couldn't.

    So in the end I didn't end up getting my P30, and I'm pretty disappointed because it was a price I was willing to pay to add a uniqueness to my photos, and to change the style in which I shoot. It would have been nice, but what can you do...


    BTW, if anyone is selling a P30 w/AFDII and 55-110 lens, I'd be willing to hear out what you're selling it for. I can only honestly pay $9000 but I suspect prices like that won't happen to often.

    Best,
    Adam

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Ugh...that is why it is so important to buy from someone you can truly trust. You did the right thing -- I would turn around and run away from that seller as fast as possible. If they are not disclosing problems with the back, they are clearly dishonest and untrustworthy. Who knows what else they are hiding? Cash only too...it makes it sound like it was stolen...did you get a serial number?
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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    The guy owns a reputable photo studio, and Singapore is a small small place in that sense, the dealer here knows everyone by name AFAIK...
    So stuff like that doesn't usually happen here..

    But yes, I guess it's good to buy from someone you trust, then again online it's hard to trust people. Yet we buy stuff from the buy and sell section all the time. Anyway, does anyone want to sell me a p30 at a really really good price

    Thanks again for everyones help, now I know a little more about phase backs, and what to look out for when buying used.


    Best,
    Adam

  17. #17
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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Hey guys, I know that this was addressed and phase played it off as a problem with adobe... So let me explain my problem and it's with phases program..


    Alright, in lightroom the lines show up as blue, and you process the files and the blue line is still in the file (blue line is in the middle of the file in the horizontal position of the sensor the line runs up and down vertically). This problem doesn't go away even after the file is processed (BTW there are other lines in the file that are more faint and blue but I think they're ISO banding)..


    Now with phases new capture one software, I get this single line that looks like a perfect straight scratch down the middle of the sensor. This line doesn't go away. It's noticeable in small viewing sized shots, and it's very detailed in 100% crops, even with the tiff is processed the lines still there, and very visible.

    Any solutions?
    Says main firmware is 2.5 then there are other firmwares and the CLD firmware or whatever you call it, it's at 2.2.3

    Here take a look:

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/...790c77d8_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3080/...ff5087d5_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/...29a4a6da_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3266/...f7028650_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/...3d6e3db9_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3259/...36ebd23b_o.png
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/...08c5ee73_o.png


    So what do you guys think, a firmware issue, or is this a hardware issue that cannot be fixed?


    Best,
    Adam
    I might be wrong but this looks like a hardware issue to me and not dead pixels as mentioned above. I had this exact same problem with another camera and the sensor had to be replaced. In a way you're lucky that he changed his mind.

    As far as the price goes, 9k was a good deal but nothing special if the back worked, you can easily find the same or even better pricing on e-bay for a low mileage P30 or equivelant Leaf back.
    Last edited by ddk; 4th January 2009 at 06:33.

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    I suppose you're right about the risk.

    Nothing out there today on ebay or the forums.
    I have to be patient, hopefully by next month I'll have one. Or in march/april I'll probably fly down to the states for a bit, visit my family. Perhaps I'll do an in person deal while I'm there.


    Have a nice night,
    Adam

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    US$9,000 x $1.5 = S$13,500. If you add GST of 7% it comes to about S$14,445. A Phaseone refurbished P30 from the distributor with 12 months classic warranty is S$16,000 if I recall correctly. I cannot see any savings in buying a used back this way. Just my MHO.

  20. #20
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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I suppose you're right about the risk.

    Nothing out there today on ebay or the forums.
    I have to be patient, hopefully by next month I'll have one. Or in march/april I'll probably fly down to the states for a bit, visit my family. Perhaps I'll do an in person deal while I'm there.


    Have a nice night,
    Adam
    Go to the commercial vendor section on this site, you'll see an ad from Leaf,

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4567; click on the UK section and you'll see a refurbished Leaf 65 which is the P30 equivalent for about $7600 and includes a warranty, this is a far better deal than what you were getting!

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    Re: P30 problems with line on images..

    Henry, I was quoted $1800, but if the dealer were willing to give me a better deal, I'd take him up on the offer.

    DDK, I was looking at that, I will hear out the Phase One dealers (I'm going to USA in a months time and a bit) so can get here or there, and will see if anyone has a P30 P30+ here on the forums first, then I think I will jump on that deal, as it's not a bad price for the leaf back.

    Best,
    Adam

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