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Does Arca-Swiss glue their clamps to the heads nowadays?

torger

Active member
Gentle sarcasm apart, I'm certain your dealer could've ordered the D4 with no clamp mounted. AS is typically open to customization requests, they even produce parts on demand.

That being said the 'classic' and 'monoballfix' clamps are clearly not convenient on a Techno, I've similar issues with my folding 4x5. As soon as I could live without the D4 for a couple of days next winter I'll send it to AS and ask they take that clamp off.
Maybe I could have ordered without clamp, but they don't have that package on the web. I'm not sure if I remember correctly but I think they also did sell it without clamp in the beginning. I'd guess the glueing and not selling without clamp is some business decision rather than technical.

Anyway, I've now decided to keep it as is and go on with the classic screw clamp for some time at least. A third-party screw clamp would lose the usefulness of the pano scale on top as you lose the arrow pointing out the position. Not too bad for me as I would rarely use it (I generally don't stitch), but it's a "nice to have" thing which make the case stronger for using the original clamp. I did not know this before I got a close look on the head.

The screw clamp is a bit slow to work with, but for my uses it is better than the two other Arca-Swiss alternatives. For flip lock I'd want a huge lever that can be operated with gloves, like many of the third-party clamps (but not Arca-Swiss), and I'd prefer a tuned system without calibration screw like the RRS (I already have an RRS plate on the camera).
 

ondebanks

Member
If enough people send Arca a clear message that their non-removable glued-on clamp is dissuading people from buying a D4 in the first place - and that negative recommendations are going into circulation in the fora where their products are discussed - they'll soon change their gluing practices.

Ray
 

alajuela

Active member
If enough people send Arca a clear message that their non-removable glued-on clamp is dissuading people from buying a D4 in the first place - and that negative recommendations are going into circulation in the fora where their products are discussed - they'll soon change their gluing practices.

Ray
Mu understanding was that Arca was receiving back cubes where people botched the removal of the original and replacement with third party clamps. They still respected the warranty, (which is amazing) and repaired them. Then they started gluing them down.
The D4 came out about the same time they started gluing them down. When we have camera / tripod makers not respecting warranties - I think AS was pretty much a stand up guy.

I use the cube with the flip lock (also have 3 RRS clamps 2 NovoFlex clamps) I do not have the night mares with the AS Flip Lock others have complained about. I do suppose as Torger has mentioned with gloves on it would be harder. But I would take my gloves off when changing a 20,000 - 40,000 USD piece of equipment

That's my 2 cents

Phil
 
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Don Libby

Well-known member
I found out the hard way that AS now uses some sort of super loctite on their heads. My Cube I got several years ago had something on it however after using a little gentle pressure I was able to remove and replace the top. No fuss.

The D4 is a totally different situation (and to the same degree I guess all AS heads) as they changed the type of loctite used. You now have to really heat the head in order to remove the screw. By heating I mean a lot of heat is needed; a hair dryer won't work (I tried). I was able to remove the screw only after using a heat gun to the point the head got too hot to touch.

In all fairness I will say the customer service of AS is outstanding as I ended up blotching the job on my D4 and sent it in for repair with them fixing what I did at no charge, even picking up the return return shipping.

So, based on my own personal experience I'd say removing the screw/bolt out of a newer AS head isn't for the faint of heart. You'll need a heat gun, and pot holders to protect your hands and you should do it somewhere where you won't catch anything on fire from all the heat.


Don

I also no longer have the D4 after coming to the conclusion that nothing beats the Cube!
 

torger

Active member
There are special techniques to remove loctite bolts using special heating tools, I have a friend that can do this kind of work. I'll stay low for a while though and keep it as is. The screw clamp does work with my winter gloves when I tested so it's okay, just not as good as some third-party alternatives out there.
(My view on safety concerning handling equipment with gloves is that if you cannot take risks and use your gear in the conditions you live in because the gear is too expensive, then you have the wrong gear, or the wrong insurance ;) .)

I understand that the company has nice service and all, but that does not make them immune from criticism when they do a bad move, and glueing the clamps is exactly that. That people would damage the head for removing the clamp sounds absurd, it sounds just as absurd that the would glue the head to the tripod because people would damage the head when unscrewing it. Earlier D4 units did not have any glueing, it's a single bolt which fits a standard 3.5mm hex key and it would easily be removed (now it's glued), got that info from a user over at Lula. Possibly the Cube has some other strange design in their clamp fastening that can cause accidental damage, haven't seen the Cube, but clearly there is no such issue with the D4. The true reason is more probably a business decision as I see it. More money to earn and stronger positioning of the brand if forcing the original clamps on users.

The original clamps are not really bad but when you have the best head in your hands the urge to attach the best clamp on it to get an unbeatable combination is pretty strong :)

(Concering Cube vs D4 the strenghts of the D4 is that it's more all-around and quicker to work with thanks to the unlocking knobs. The main weakness I'd guess is that the gears are less smooth to work with when you have heavy gear on top as the roll/pitch axis are inside the head rather than near the camera mass center as for the Cube.)
 

Wayne Fox

Workshop Member
Sigh... Arca-Swiss can't make clamps, and the other brands can't make geared heads. Previously you could get the best from both worlds ie arca + rrs (which "everyone" seemed to do),
Call me odd, but I have no problem with the Arca swiss quick release mount on my cube, I like it better than the RRS version I have on my BH-55. Arca's is smaller, the handle doesn't protrude when it's closed.

However, I don't use it as suggested, I have it tight enough the camera isn't adjustable when in the middle position. So I open it all the way, put in the camera and shut it. The little thumb slide is awkward sometimes, but never really a problem.
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
I can only agree to Wayne's comment . I get along very well with the AS
Fliplock system . No need for any other system .
 

PeterL

Member
As an alternative - completely different from most of the posts above. Just switch to the Slidefix top, much lower profile, not "two-levels", very easy to use, even with gloves (admittedly this I have not tried personally, but I can not see it being a problem - with the type of gloves I would wear). It cost me about $150 in new sildefix plates for my two Alpa's (TC and STC) - works perfectly fine for me on a D4. Just a thought......

Cheers, -Peter
 

torger

Active member
There are many personal preferences. I like open systems that allows customization and mixing several brands. This is an attractive property of medium format photography in general by the way. So I think it's a bit boring when brands withdraws opportunities for customization like Arca-Swiss has done here.
 

fotophil

Member
In order to soften the new thread sealant used by ARCA I had to use an industrial hot air gun positioned within an inch or so of the bolt. In order to avoid heat damage to the surrounding parts, I wrapped wet rags around the clamp. It's a challenging procedure but necessary because the Arca Service Center would not install a RRS Clamp on a D4 Head that I had sent in for repair. I suspect the ARCA Factory prohibited the repair facility from performing the installation.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Call me odd, but I have no problem with the Arca swiss quick release mount on my cube, I like it better than the RRS version I have on my BH-55. Arca's is smaller, the handle doesn't protrude when it's closed.

However, I don't use it as suggested, I have it tight enough the camera isn't adjustable when in the middle position. So I open it all the way, put in the camera and shut it. The little thumb slide is awkward sometimes, but never really a problem.
I too prefer the Arca clamp compared to the RRS lever clamps. I like the fact that I can set the tension, as Wayne showed me after an expensive experience. Having a tighter fit is a good insurance when there's the equivalent of a nice BMW sitting on top of your tripod.

I'm a big fan of the RRS gear overall but I personally haven't had any issues with the Arca clamps once you know how to use them properly. However, Arca don't help themselves with that due to their p$$$ poor instructions.
 

yatlee

Member
I have done it couple times (a D4 and a cube). It's best to have 2 person, one holding wrench (a small extension would be helpful) and another holding a torch/heat gun (see attached picture) pointing at the screw. As the screw heating up, turn the wrench. It should loosen up and it's actually not that tight.
 

torger

Active member
One trick I've heard is that instead of putting direct heat on the bolt-head with a torch, you use the torch to heat up a metal rod almost until it's red and then you use that to heat the bolt-head. That way you avoid heating up the surrounding area unnecessarily with a torch.

When asking around about this I've heard various claims that Arca-Swiss has gradually made it harder and harder to remove the clamp, and that the latest ones it should be impossible. That sounds strange I think, and I've sent Rod Klukas a message and hope he can jump in and make some "official statement" on what the status is.

If it's some sort of loctite and reversible I can go along and think it's okay, then you limit customization to only the ones that really wants to and takes the effort to find out how to remove a loctite screw. If it's really irreversible these days it would be sad though, because then you would not even be able to send it in and have Arca-Swiss change between their own clamps, say if I want to change my classic screw clamp to a monobollfix.
 

Frederic

Member
Seems you don't really now the 'spirit' at AS. I'd be surprised they don't send you another head with a different clamp, provided it's really impossible to take it off nowadays.

Again, it was only a matter of :
1- reading about the mod you intended to do before you buy : stronger loctite, other owners experience, etc
2- ask your dealer to order a head with no clamp mounted
Simple as that, really.

I was totally standing behind your complaints regarding the Aptus back not operating in the cold, but I don't think you're being fair here.
My 0.02
 

f8orbust

Active member
Couldn't disagree more.

If there was a problem with A/S's (or any other manufacturer's) clamps falling off, then sure, loctite them (glue them? Never).

But, there isn't.

A/S didn't do this previously, RRS don't, Manfrotto don't, Kirk don't, Gitzo don't.

You get the picture.

The only conclusion you're left with is that A/S have started to do this - no doubt under the guise of 'security' - to prevent you from dropping $ on one of their competitor's clamps.

It's not about asking your dealer to 'order a different clamp' - it's about having the choice now, next month or next year - to fit whatever the hell you want on top. These things cost $$$, and the thought of not being able to customise it to whatever plate you are using, at any point in the future, is nonsense.
 

Frederic

Member
Then we disagree the most, am fine with that ))
I totally get the picture, and ordering a head with no clamp lets you customize it as you wish in the future, so...

If Rod Klukas doesn't chime in I'll try and call Martin Vogt this week.
 

torger

Active member
I did read and ask before buy :), not just enough... :( I didn't realize they had changed the mounting, and those I asked didn't know either. They'd got the gear ~2011 and then they just unscrewed it with a 3.5mm hex key and that was it. I intended to start with the original screw clamp and change later on (unless I would start to like it), so buying without was not really in my plan.

What I should have done is ask the dealer directly, but you can always send gear back if not pleased and you cannot be sure you've asked everything there's generally always a few surprises left. I was considering to send it back, but after some consideration and testing I've decided that the original clamp is "good enough" for me, and the fact that you need the original clamp to have a working panorama scale is also a factor that makes the case stronger for keeping the original part. That scale is not too important for me personally though as I don't stitch much, but for those that do it's important.

They had the clamp user-removable and re-attachable in the past, and there was no real reason to not keep it that way. But anyway, if they do sell it without clamp (they don't on the web) and they do allow sending in to change or remove clamp I agree that it's put in a different light, then you can say it's unnecessarily cumbersome but not really closed. I'm trying to get confirmation from Arca-Swiss and/or dealer but has not yet had any response. Using all the force I have and still not being able to release a bolt does affect my temper so my criticism may sound harsher than it is ;).

I'm hoping to get some answers from Arca-Swiss officials, and then I'll make sure it's copied to this thread so it becomes a useful resource for future buyers. Changing clamps is afterall a very popular user modification of tripod heads overall, not just Arca-Swiss. I had my clamp changed for my old Manfrotto head for example (yes, it was user changable).
 

fotophil

Member
Based upon the Arca Service Center's refusal to install a RRS Clamp on my D4, I would be surprised if Arca Swiss would sell a Cube or D4 without a AS Clamp already installed. Has anyone ever tried to order a "clampless" AS Head?
The idea of using a red hot steel rod to heat the bolt as an alternative to using a heat gun certainly is worth trying but I suspect that it may require numerous attempts. Has anyone been successful with this approach?
 

f8orbust

Active member
Has anyone ever tried to order a "clampless" AS Head?
I've never seen it as an option.

Anyone bought a lens on an A/S board (e.g. R-Line)? If so, you'd better check that the retaining ring on the Copal shutter hasn't been 'Loctited'. Wouldn't want to make it too easy for you to move to Alpa, Cambo, Linhof etc. now would we? :loco:
 

torger

Active member
I got this from Rod K:

Currently the QR's are attached via the Screw visible on top of QR as always. However the factory now uses a very strong Loctite type adhesive that is not user releaseable.
Precision Camera Works can, for a fee, remove the QR and change to another of ours
without voiding your warranty on the head. ([email protected])
Previous to beginning of 2013, a user could perhaps have removed the QR, but we had many users who damaged their heads in doing so, both removing the QR and using the wrong screw to replace as each QR requires a different length screw. As this was not a manufacturers defect we could not honor this as a warranty repair, although in some cases we did. We will no longer warranty this type of damage. So the policy was changed.
I hope this clarifies the situation.
I was unfortunately a bit unclear in my question so I did not get an answer to if it's possible to just get it removed (get it back clamp-less) or if one could get someone (ie PrecisionCameraWorks if in US) to attach a third-party clamp there or if that would void warranty. I invited him to this thread, we'll see if he arrives to answer any further questions.

It seems like anyone with good heating gear and know-how could remove it, but it's not for the general user to do it.
 
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