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Thread: Hasselblad price increase

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Hasselblad price increase

    Just seen on Photorumours:



    I like the editorial comment: On October 1, 2013 Hasselblad will increase the price of their H system lenses due to higher manufacturing costs (maybe the real reason is to cover the losses from the Lunar and Stellar cameras).

    Read more on PhotoRumors.com: Hasselblad lens price increase coming on October 1st | Photo Rumors

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Just seen on Photorumours:



    I like the editorial comment: On October 1, 2013 Hasselblad will increase the price of their H system lenses due to higher manufacturing costs (maybe the real reason is to cover the losses from the Lunar and Stellar cameras).

    Read more on PhotoRumors.com: Hasselblad lens price increase coming on October 1st | Photo Rumors
    It could be also sales. I hope you are right. But I still believe that they have failed to properly market the H5D and also, I am amazed that the H5D-60 is not listed on the Hasselblad site (Hasselbladusa.com) even at this date.

    Jduncan

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    They are truly pathetic. I wish I had never purchased an H4D camera and lenses.
    They have become nothing more than a marketing company.
    I should have purchased a technical camera, Phase One back and a couple of Rodenstock and Schneider APO-Digital optics.
    I have less than 600 exposures on my H4D digital back and I am going to "take a bath" when I sell this virtually new camera and lenses!
    Anybody want to buy it?
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    I don't think they are pathetic. (perhaps except the lunar and stellar). I think increasing on the H only helps the resale value of your H4D no? As fewer people buy their stuff of course costs would go up. I want a raise every year too, that drives up my company's costs.

    Why are you selling it? the H4D is a totally different camera vs. Tech cams. If you do studio work/fashion/stills why would you want to use a Tech cam?

    Yes, you will lose a lot of money when you sale your H4D compared to retail value, but that's true to EVERY digital camera, tech cams included. You can easily recoup your losses from buying used tech cams which also took a price cut.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    I have used Hasselblad cameras for more than 40 years.
    They are a shadow of what they once were.

    My H4d has less than 700 exposures on it.
    My photo interests have changed and I now want to concentrate on landscapes and macros.

    Thanks,
    Mike

    If anybody wants a new camera, mine is the one to buy!
    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    I don't think they are pathetic. (perhaps except the lunar and stellar). I think increasing on the H only helps the resale value of your H4D no? As fewer people buy their stuff of course costs would go up. I want a raise every year too, that drives up my company's costs.

    Why are you selling it? the H4D is a totally different camera vs. Tech cams. If you do studio work/fashion/stills why would you want to use a Tech cam?

    Yes, you will lose a lot of money when you sale your H4D compared to retail value, but that's true to EVERY digital camera, tech cams included. You can easily recoup your losses from buying used tech cams which also took a price cut.
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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    NikonF, alas, I totally understand your sentiments all too well.....

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonf View Post
    They are truly pathetic. I wish I had never purchased an H4D camera and lenses.
    They have become nothing more than a marketing company.
    I should have purchased a technical camera, Phase One back and a couple of Rodenstock and Schneider APO-Digital optics.
    I have less than 600 exposures on my H4D digital back and I am going to "take a bath" when I sell this virtually new camera and lenses!
    Anybody want to buy it?
    You could get a H4x and a phase back and still use your HC glass,some of those HC lenses are excellent,and add a tech cam later.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Come on guys, what has got cheaper made in Europe last decade?

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    Senior Member malmac's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonf View Post
    They are truly pathetic. I wish I had never purchased an H4D camera and lenses.
    They have become nothing more than a marketing company.
    I should have purchased a technical camera, Phase One back and a couple of Rodenstock and Schneider APO-Digital optics.
    I have less than 600 exposures on my H4D digital back and I am going to "take a bath" when I sell this virtually new camera and lenses!
    Anybody want to buy it?
    NikonF

    I looked at the H4D 50 back when the Phase P65 was the option. Really liked the H camera system but opted for the Phase system because I liked the fact that when the new promised camera body came out - I could buy the new body and have a camera body comparable to the H system camera but with a back that was independent.

    Well we all have our disappointments - here we are two years later and no new cameras body even in sight yet (don't talk about the 645DF+) - so to some extent I feel duped on that front.

    I upgraded to the IQ180 back and really love the files so I live with the short comings.

    If I was rich beyond belief I would buy your H4D camera - I am sure I would find something to love - like True Focus - to mention just one.

    Mal
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexLF View Post
    Come on guys, what has got cheaper made in Europe last decade?
    Except Hasselblad's cameras and lenses have actually been made by Fuji in Japan since roughly 2002, and that's why some people call them Fujiblads, Хассельблать.... Скорее?)))
    As well, all Zeiss DSLR lenses are actually made by Cosina, so they're not the only ones outsourcing.

    As nikonf quipped, Hass really may be a marketing company as besides that and "product development", they likely don't make any of their own products...

    Edit: Not saying their cameras are bad by any means, I regularly see plenty of wonderful images here shot with H cameras, maybe a majority of them in fact.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Except Hasselblad's cameras and lenses have actually been made by Fuji in Japan since roughly 2002, and that's why some people call them Fujiblads, Хассельблать.... Скорее?)))
    As well, all Zeiss DSLR lenses are actually made by Cosina, so they're not the only ones outsourcing.

    As nikonf quipped, Hass really may be a marketing company as besides that and "product development", they likely don't make any of their own products...

    Edit: Not saying their cameras are bad by any means, I regularly see plenty of wonderful images here shot with H cameras, maybe a majority of them in fact.
    Most companies do this nowadays. Maybe is that camera companies has been late in the adoption of manufacturing outsourcing.

    A quick look at the mobile industry (one of the few that with a massive grow nowadays ) will show that.

    Hasselblad did try to lower the prices when the H4D was introduced. The idea was jumpstart the sales. Like a bunch of things that they have tried they reversed themselves.

    I have to accept that, in the forums (at least on Lula) the reception of the H4D was super negative. In particular about true focus.

    In any case, I believe that Hasselblad issue is related to the sensors, no the camera. As long as they don't have a sensor manufacturing partner the suffering and bleeding will continue.

    If Kodak was alive they will probably have a H5D-75 and a H5D-300ms and we will not be having this conversation.

    The problem is the new owners don't seem to be attacking the main issues that we see, as Photography lovers. They see just one issue: profit.

    Best regards,

    J. Duncan
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    I hate to point out that inflation also drives prices. If costs go up because things get more expensive, then that is going to impact price. They are running a business. To think that prices never change is unrealistic.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Could Hasselblad be the medium format company that Canon has allegedly invested in??It would be interesting if they were,the H5D is a really nice camera but with the same sensor's there is no compelling reason to upgrade,even the rear LCD is the same,they could have at least enlarged it with a retina resolution.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    I wrote this before and I repeat it again - why companies would not make a tech camera with 35mm sensor? It should be inexpensive (relative to MFD, say 5-6k) and there will be way more customers then MFD. Having "Porshe Cayenne" in their line up the company could have higher budgets on R&D, etc.

    I wonder - would you fellow photographer buy such a thing? I'd go for it.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    As much as I suffer from larger-sensor envy, the results from the IQ140 on a tech camera are just fabulous. I don't have the need (or wall space) to print larger than 20x24. From that standpoint, a 35mm tech camera would probably be just my thing.

    But....

    I may be a koolaid drinking fanboi, but with the exception of the Leica M9, I still haven't seen a 35mm or smaller sensor with the attractive qualities of the IQ series. It's probable that this is a post-processing issue, and that I could get that I-just-want-to-stare-at-this-forever feeling from a modern Canon/Nikon/Sony sensor. Is it CCD vs. CMOS? Dalsa vs. Sony? Brand-induced hypnosis? I dunno...

    So, yes. Make a smaller tech camera, but keep the sensor wonderful!

    --Matt

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Could Hasselblad be the medium format company that Canon has allegedly invested in??It would be interesting if they were,the H5D is a really nice camera but with the same sensor's there is no compelling reason to upgrade,even the rear LCD is the same,they could have at least enlarged it with a retina resolution.
    Considering another company just invested in HB and is trying to pull them out of the water, I don't think a highly conservative Japanese conglomerate is going to be aching to dump their money in them too.

    Phase One on the other hand is both in a more stable position and already leads a joint venture with Mamiya and Leaf, so clearly they are open to collaborate with other companies. Of course, we could all be wrong, so be ready to be surprised come Photokina 2014 or whenever they'll choose to announce the darn thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexLF View Post
    I wrote this before and I repeat it again - why companies would not make a tech camera with 35mm sensor? It should be inexpensive (relative to MFD, say 5-6k) and there will be way more customers then MFD. Having "Porshe Cayenne" in their line up the company could have higher budgets on R&D, etc.

    I wonder - would you fellow photographer buy such a thing? I'd go for it.
    Up until recently, no one even thought that 35mm sensors could come close to the imaging quality of a large CCD chip, so a question like this would often be answered with "the tilt-shift lenses are good enough".

    Maybe Nikon could consider putting their D800 sensor into a 35mm tech cam, but it seems too radical for them... They aren't as flexible as Canon due to them being "only" a camera company.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Considering another company just invested in HB and is trying to pull them out of the water, I don't think a highly conservative Japanese conglomerate is going to be aching to dump their money in them too.

    Phase One on the other hand is both in a more stable position and already leads a joint venture with Mamiya and Leaf, so clearly they are open to collaborate with other companies. Of course, we could all be wrong, so be ready to be surprised come Photokina 2014 or whenever they'll choose to announce the darn thing.



    Up until recently, no one even thought that 35mm sensors could come close to the imaging quality of a large CCD chip, so a question like this would often be answered with "the tilt-shift lenses are good enough".

    Maybe Nikon could consider putting their D800 sensor into a 35mm tech cam, but it seems too radical for them... They aren't as flexible as Canon due to them being "only" a camera company.
    The D800 sensor is made by Sony.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonf View Post
    I have used Hasselblad cameras for more than 40 years.
    They are a shadow of what they once were.

    My H4d has less than 700 exposures on it.
    My photo interests have changed and I now want to concentrate on landscapes and macros.

    Thanks,
    Mike

    If anybody wants a new camera, mine is the one to buy!
    They are a shadow, and other MF makers are skeletons bleaching in the sun, because demand for the format is shrinking.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexLF View Post
    Come on guys, what has got cheaper made in Europe last decade?
    Nothing.

    Leica raised their prices recently. The Leica S zoom lens that is the equivalent of a 24-70 is now over $11,000.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by nikonf View Post
    They are truly pathetic. I wish I had never purchased an H4D camera and lenses.
    They have become nothing more than a marketing company.
    I should have purchased a technical camera, Phase One back and a couple of Rodenstock and Schneider APO-Digital optics.
    I have less than 600 exposures on my H4D digital back and I am going to "take a bath" when I sell this virtually new camera and lenses!
    Anybody want to buy it?
    I don't get this?
    Why did you purchase a H4D and why is it Hasselblads fault you've only 600 exposures on it?
    You make it sound like you were tricked into buying it.....
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Except Hasselblad's cameras and lenses have actually been made by Fuji in Japan since roughly 2002, and that's why some people call them Fujiblads, Хассельблать.... Скорее?)))
    As well, all Zeiss DSLR lenses are actually made by Cosina, so they're not the only ones outsourcing.

    As nikonf quipped, Hass really may be a marketing company as besides that and "product development", they likely don't make any of their own products...

    Edit: Not saying their cameras are bad by any means, I regularly see plenty of wonderful images here shot with H cameras, maybe a majority of them in fact.
    The H cameras are made in Sweden. The lenses and viewfinder are made by Fuji in Japan using Hasselblad's designs. When service is required, the camera is sent to Sweden not Japan.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    As much as I suffer from larger-sensor envy, the results from the IQ140 on a tech camera are just fabulous. I don't have the need (or wall space) to print larger than 20x24. From that standpoint, a 35mm tech camera would probably be just my thing.

    But....

    I may be a koolaid drinking fanboi, but with the exception of the Leica M9, I still haven't seen a 35mm or smaller sensor with the attractive qualities of the IQ series. It's probable that this is a post-processing issue, and that I could get that I-just-want-to-stare-at-this-forever feeling from a modern Canon/Nikon/Sony sensor. Is it CCD vs. CMOS? Dalsa vs. Sony? Brand-induced hypnosis? I dunno...

    So, yes. Make a smaller tech camera, but keep the sensor wonderful!

    --Matt
    I prefer the taste of the Kool-Aid also ... I cancelled my Leica M240, and have passed on 2 other opportunities to get one. Nice camera, okay images, but IMO the magic evaporated in terms of look and feel.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I prefer the taste of the Kool-Aid also ... I cancelled my Leica M240, and have passed on 2 other opportunities to get one. Nice camera, okay images, but IMO the magic evaporated in terms of look and feel.
    Not that you'd be worried Marc - but you aren't alone.... -

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The H cameras are made in Sweden. The lenses and viewfinder are made by Fuji in Japan using Hasselblad's designs. When service is required, the camera is sent to Sweden not Japan.
    Marc,the lenses are designed by Per Nordlund..

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by jduncan View Post
    Most companies do this nowadays. Maybe is that camera companies has been late in the adoption of manufacturing outsourcing.

    A quick look at the mobile industry (one of the few that with a massive grow nowadays ) will show that.

    Hasselblad did try to lower the prices when the H4D was introduced. The idea was jumpstart the sales. Like a bunch of things that they have tried they reversed themselves.

    I have to accept that, in the forums (at least on Lula) the reception of the H4D was super negative. In particular about true focus.

    In any case, I believe that Hasselblad issue is related to the sensors, no the camera. As long as they don't have a sensor manufacturing partner the suffering and bleeding will continue.

    If Kodak was alive they will probably have a H5D-75 and a H5D-300ms and we will not be having this conversation.

    The problem is the new owners don't seem to be attacking the main issues that we see, as Photography lovers. They see just one issue: profit.

    Best regards,

    J. Duncan
    Actually, like many companies in the shrinking niche photographic equipment business, the only issue is ... survival. Profits are the only path to that ... camera companies can't apply for non-profit status with the IRS

    BTW, my H4D/40 was one of the best cameras I ever owned, and I used it to make nice business profits as well as enjoyed it for personal projects. It is gone now because I retired.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Marc,the lenses are designed by Per Nordlund..
    Odd name for a Japanese lens designer working for Fuji, don't you think?

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Odd name for a Japanese lens designer working for Fuji, don't you think?

    - Marc

    Nordlund-San. ... ;-)
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Nothing.

    Leica raised their prices recently. The Leica S zoom lens that is the equivalent of a 24-70 is now over $11,000.
    True, but what a fine zoom it is.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by rsmphoto View Post
    True, but what a fine zoom it is.
    The 35-90 is a very good lens to. I believe that the difference is that Leica is a collectable item. Some pros use Leica. Leica lenses are superb. But even the pros that use Leica know that the resale value is not just related to the quality.

    The H5D is not, in general, a collectible.

    Best regards,

    James

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    It will be difficult for any MF manufacturer to survive without tight bonds to someone with market share, technology and capital. Maybe the only survivors will be Leica and Pentax plus someone who can make digital backs for those with special needs, like technical cams

    I wouldn't be surprised if Kodak Alaris is a better investment proposition than Hasselblad these days.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    If I was lucky enough to have an H4D, I'd use it and enjoy doing so.

    With regard to who designs and builds Hasselblad H cameras and lenses, I would think the old myths of the past should have been put to rest by now. Most of the misinformation seems to come from a select few internet sites who's writers felt disenfranchised from the brand when Hasselblad "closed" the system. That and because H doesn't seem to give them special treatment.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Most of the misinformation seems to come from a select few internet sites who's writers felt disenfranchised from the brand when Hasselblad "closed" the system. That and because H doesn't seem to give them special treatment.
    Talking about hitting the nail on the head!!!

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    H4X with a Phase 1 back is the way I went several years ago and it's the best of both worlds. True Focus in my opinion is the best new technology in medium format in many years. The eyes are sharp in 95% of my images.
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Interesting discussion. Everyone knows that everyone increases prices. Hasselblad makes great lenses (with shutters). They even improved lenses that did not stand up to modern sensors. Imagine that. The disappointment I had with Hasselblad when they introduced the Lunar does not blind me to the obvious value of the lenses relative to their price.

    Greg
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Just to chime in I'm pretty happy with my H4D-40 and 35-90mm. I've done some landscape stuff with it recently that I'm really happy with. Made prints up to 5' wide that are perfectly fine to me. True focus and really clean long exposures (up to 4+ min compared to 1-2mins with the Phase IQ, except p45+/260) are great as are the 35-90mm. I shoot 95% stopped down on tripod (minimizing the advantage of primes), so having a 35-90 option is ideal for travel landscape photography...only have to carry one lens (although sometimes wider/longer is needed). Phase/Schneider really needs to make their own now that Hassy and Leica both have a zoom in this range IMO.

    Prices go up with everything as stated previously. Regardless of whether H products products are made/designed in Japan or Sweden, it's a good system. It's not a perfect system but no system is. We're talking about price increases, but Hasselblad also has great CPO deals and just had a 30% off sale (they had an H4D-40 for ~$7100 with a 6 month factory warranty for example). When I researched what MFD system to buy, at the 40mp level at least, I found my $$ could go a LOT further for my needs with a used H4D-40 kit than a used IQ140 kit. Also, buying used, I could sell and take a much much smaller hit financially if I needed to. All of the lenses that are subject to the price increase can be bought used with a couple hundred or less clicks for waaaaaaay less than MSRP anyway.

    No idea what Hasselblad is doing with the Lunar and Stellar...they are obviously not marketing towards photographers, rather people with money who take pictures. Whether you agree or disagree with their current corporate strategy (or lack thereof?) shouldn't take away from the fact that the H-system is still a good system more than capable of producing great images.
    Todd
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Talking about hitting the nail on the head!!!
    With a sledge hammer

    I read one rambling "In Depth" H comparison report on one unnamed site from a "credentialed" blow hard that was filled with so many inaccurate statements that it wasn't worth responding to because it was obvious there was malice driving it.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The D800 sensor is made by Sony.
    Yes, it is, but the all electronics behind it are made by Nikon, otherwise Sony would have their own camera with the same sensor of same performance in one of their cameras... And in fact that did once.
    Remember the Nikon D3X and Sony A900? Both had the exact same 24.6mp sensor in them, but the Nikon ran circles around the Sony in terms of noise and dynamic range.
    In fact, the A900 was even worse than the 5D2 in high-ISO performance, while the D3X was superior. So yes, same sensor, but not really.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Yes, it is, but the all electronics behind it are made by Nikon, otherwise Sony would have their own camera with the same sensor of same performance in one of their cameras... And in fact that did once.
    Remember the Nikon D3X and Sony A900? Both had the exact same 24.6mp sensor in them, but the Nikon ran circles around the Sony in terms of noise and dynamic range.
    In fact, the A900 was even worse than the 5D2 in high-ISO performance, while the D3X was superior. So yes, same sensor, but not really.
    Yes, understood. Each company adds their approach to the base sensor info. But that wasn't the point was it? It was about who made their own sensors. Sony and Canon do, Nikon and Leica do not.

    However, since I used both the D3X and Sony A900 side-by-side I will dispute the D3X verses A900 comparison you present. Nikon chose to produce a very flat file with a somewhat better high ISO performance that required considerable time in post to get anything decent from ... where Sony chose to concentrate on midtone response and truer color fidelity especially regarding skin tones right out of the camera. Subsequent firmware for the A900 improved the ISO a bit and helped the noise issues.

    To this day you can find many photographers that use the A900 as a benchmark for color and tonal response, where the D3X is a benchmark for nothing. Not to mention the A900 was 1/3 the price of the D3X. In post, the A900 ran circles around the D3X including taking a nap and having diner, taking in a movie, and then still winning. In other words, a nice Nikon camera for those with oodles of discretionary time to waste at the computer. The D3X was one of the worse 35mm DSLRs for people photography, portraits, weddings and events I ever owned, and I was glad to be rid of it.

    As always ... IMHO.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, understood. Each company adds their approach to the base sensor info. But that wasn't the point was it? It was about who made their own sensors. Sony and Canon do, Nikon and Leica do not.

    However, since I used both the D3X and Sony A900 side-by-side I will dispute the D3X verses A900 comparison you present. Nikon chose to produce a very flat file with a somewhat better high ISO performance that required considerable time in post to get anything decent from ... where Sony chose to concentrate on midtone response and truer color fidelity especially regarding skin tones right out of the camera. Subsequent firmware for the A900 improved the ISO a bit and helped the noise issues.

    To this day you can find many photographers that use the A900 as a benchmark for color and tonal response, where the D3X is a benchmark for nothing. Not to mention the A900 was 1/3 the price of the D3X. In post, the A900 ran circles around the D3X including taking a nap and having diner, taking in a movie, and then still winning. In other words, a nice Nikon camera for those with oodles of discretionary time to waste at the computer. The D3X was one of the worse 35mm DSLRs for people photography, portraits, weddings and events I ever owned, and I was glad to be rid of it.

    As always ... IMHO.

    - Marc
    Interesting, you seem to be the first person to not like that camera, well... I have owned neither so I respect your opinion.
    To this day you can find many photographers that use the A900 as a benchmark for color and tonal response
    No wonder I didn't know about that, no one talks about how great the tones and colors are in their images except you guys, everyone else is shooting charts.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Interesting difference of opinion with regards to A900 vs. D3X. I like both, but mostly prefer the colours of the D3X. When they become cheap enough, and if I haven't sold all my Nikon gear in the meantime, I'll buy one

    Hasselblad should of course become cheaper, not dearer, but lenses seldom do.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Interesting, you seem to be the first person to not like that camera, well... I have owned neither so I respect your opinion.

    No wonder I didn't know about that, no one talks about how great the tones and colors are in their images except you guys, everyone else is shooting charts.
    Like, or not like, depends on what circles you move in ... in other words, applications.

    The D3X seemed better suited when used in studio with strobes, and I believe at the time was positioned as a higher meg "studio" camera that could be also used elsewhere. Obviously the Nikon was a Pro level camera built to work in crappy weather and tough conditions ... however, I have now shot years and years worth of weddings, events, and portraits as well as travel with the A900 and it has never failed in any way. I think Sony over-built that camera and under-marketed it because it was their first FF camera aimed at advanced amateurs and some Pros like me.

    It was the post processing drudgery of the D3X that I hated. The A900 cut that time in half. Other people may like a flat file that they can adjust anyway they want, and don't mind fiddling with skin tones ... I wasn't one of them when slogging through a thousand wedding shots every summer week

    So, YMMV depending on applications.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Ok, so that makes sense now, first thing I do when I load up a photo is drop it into linear gamma, so mark me down as likes-to-toil-in-post-ographer.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Remember the Nikon D3X and Sony A900? Both had the exact same 24.6mp sensor in them, but the Nikon ran circles around the Sony in terms of noise and dynamic range.
    In fact, the A900 was even worse than the 5D2 in high-ISO performance, while the D3X was superior. So yes, same sensor, but not really.
    Count one other A900 user to think otherwise. In my opinion, the A900 ran circles around the 5D2, not the other way around. But, the 5D2 real success was in video, which the A900 and D3x could not do.

    And since I am at it: count me as a very happy Hasselblad user as well. The lenses are impressive, in particular the HC 50mm II which I used this week-end. Phocus is peculiar and slow, but the results are there. The HTS is unmatched by the competition. Generally speaking, the cameras are well designed ergonomically, with good balance and handling and a very nice viewfinder (much nicer than the Pentax, for example).

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Prices for used H gear will probably go up now, because of the fact no one will want to purchase new gear now. Aside from the venerable 500 series to the H2, Hasselblad lost me as a customer because of QC issues of the H3/ H4 models. Price increases will still seem like a bargain in comparison to Leica S2 users though. Broadcast quality digital video on an CF/SD card puts Nikon and Canon in its own category for most photographers - something Leica, Phase, and Hasselblad will never capture.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Count one other A900 user to think otherwise. In my opinion, the A900 ran circles around the 5D2, not the other way around. But, the 5D2 real success was in video, which the A900 and D3x could not do.

    And since I am at it: count me as a very happy Hasselblad user as well. The lenses are impressive, in particular the HC 50mm II which I used this week-end. Phocus is peculiar and slow, but the results are there. The HTS is unmatched by the competition. Generally speaking, the cameras are well designed ergonomically, with good balance and handling and a very nice viewfinder (much nicer than the Pentax, for example).
    Ya gotta have a good video card to run Phocus. When my old card started acting up, I upgraded to the best one my computer could take, and Phocus zoomed into action.

    I wish other software had the color selector wheel like Phocus does ... best job of precisely isolating a specific color for adjustment I've ever used.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Nikon chose to produce a very flat file with a somewhat better high ISO performance that required considerable time in post to get anything decent from ... where Sony chose to concentrate on midtone response and truer color fidelity especially regarding skin tones right out of the camera.

    - Marc
    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang
    Interesting difference of opinion with regards to A900 vs. D3X. I like both, but mostly prefer the colours of the D3X.
    You guys are talking about processing from JPEG, right? Or at least, you were ceding control of the RAW channel mixing to the settings preferred by Sony or Nikon?

    Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.

    Ray

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    You guys are talking about processing from JPEG, right? Or at least, you were ceding control of the RAW channel mixing to the settings preferred by Sony or Nikon?

    Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.

    Ray
    Cameras with identical sensors can in fact produce different color.

    See also Credo 60 vs IQ160 (different color science team) or hassy h3d-39 vs p45+ (Different everything besides sensor) or heck even p45 vs p45+ (Different ir filter, moderate hardware differences).

    The sensor is just one part of the image quality chain.
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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Ray,

    ...if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900...
    The following is an excerpt from comments on the D3x by Thom Hogan, available here in its entirety. I hope it sheds some light on the matter:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Hogan
    There's the inevitable "is it a Sony or Nikon sensor" question thing that arises from another new sensor announcement. But it especially rises this time as the primary difference between a D3 and a D3x is the sensor, and Sony has a similar-sized sensor in a camera that's US$5000 less expensive. I think there's a clear assumption by many that if it is a Sony sensor, then either the A900 is a bargain or the D3x is overpriced.

    In actuality, the origin of the sensor is, like virtually all Nikon sensors, more complex. There's a story going around Japan, for instance, that one of Sony's newer fabs was partially leased to another company making CMOS sensors. There aren't many companies making CMOS sensors that need a state-of-the-art fab on lease, so the rumor has it that Nikon is the leasee. Given that the steppers in the plant probably came from Nikon Precision and things get messy real quick. There have also been rumors around for some time that Nikon was either specifying or applying their own "toppings" (that would be microlenses and Bayer filtration), even when they were using a Sony generated sensor. To say that there is a lot of entwinement between Sony Semiconductor and Nikon Imaging is understatement. Personally, I like the way Nikon puts it: "unique." The D3x sensor is unique to the D3x, though it may share some underpinnings with other sensors.

    So it seems clear to me that the D3x sensor isn't the A900 sensor. There are some obvious differences that can be gleaned from the specs and without access to technical data sheets. At the same time, there are too many coincidences for the D3x sensor not to be based on the Sony sensel (the light sensing area of the photosite). It also seems clear that the low-pass filter is handled differently in the Nikon version. So all those thinking that the A900 and D3x should be the "same" for raw files are probably going to be proven wrong. And for JPEG files, the EXPEED and BIONZ image processing ASICs are certainly going to produce different results.

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    You guys are talking about processing from JPEG, right? Or at least, you were ceding control of the RAW channel mixing to the settings preferred by Sony or Nikon?

    Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.

    Ray
    RAW files.

    Yes, you can fiddle with the files and get similar results. My point was "How much fiddling?" The camera's electronics do assign "as shot" data to the RAW files which you can alter anyway you want. Again, how much altering is required is the issue I had.

    For what it is worth, LuLu did a comparison and concluded there was little to no difference in DR and no difference in noise up to and including ISO 800 where the Nikon then pulled ahead by about a stop. That was before Sony issued a firmware update that better addressed ISO performance. I now use ISO 2000 without much worry, and rarely need to even go that high.

    IMO and experience, in-body stabilization was and remains a key advantage of the Sony DSLRs ... where every lens made by anyone is stabilized. Including all the fast ZA primes, and any adapted lens.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad price increase

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.
    The color filters array chromaticities are different between the D3x and A900 (they are also slightly different between the A900 and A800).
    That alone is sufficient to explain differences in the RAW file.

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