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Thread: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

  1. #1
    Piet Gispen
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    Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Some of us have already reported on the optical quality of the new PhaseOne 45mm TS lens: the center is sharp enough, the left side of a photo almost blurred, while the right side is unsharp. Below follows the comment from PhaseOne which received via my dealer. To be honest this is not what I expected as I find the lens almost unusable, in particular for interior photography. None of this was mentioned when I ordered my copy as part of an offer in September (PhaseOne camera, P45+, 120 mm, 80 mm, 45 mmTS). I have not yet spoken to my dealer, but I am curious to have their opinion.

    [quote]
    we have evaluated the images and also comparred against the factory images we have made with the same lens here in our studio before shipping. Product Marketing and our highly estimated lens specialist have tested this partiquelar lens and comparred the images from the user with special attention.

    Looking at the 3 images and also our test images made at f 3.5 - we find that they are all sharp in the middle on most f-stop's. The images from the user shows good overall sharpness in the middle which is also expected. Then when evaluating the images and lens getting closer to the edges - the charistichs of this lens is seen and also where the lens has it's strong points and also where the limitations starts.

    The lens is very good at close up photography, tabletop, packshots etc. This is also seen in the samles shown in the small samplefolder that have been distributed with the lens. The lens can also be used shooting objects at longer distances however you will see the charistichs of the lens showing a fall of in sharpness on the edges. This is a known charistichs of this partiquelar lens and has never been stated as a strong point of this lens. The lens charistichs is very good at closer distances and some cropping needs to be added at longer distances - this is what can be achieved from this lens.

    If the user needs to shoot at longer distances, location or landscape we recommend to use the Cambo or Horsemann with a Schneider lens or largeformat with digital lenses for wide angle. However the 45 T/S lens has it strong point a closer distances. F-stop from 8-16 is recommend to give the overall best results as stated in the marketing material and brochure.

    Based on this we consider this lens to be within the specifications when used at the recommended set-up and f-stop's.

    Thanks for your feedback. We kindly ask you to transfer the information to the enduser and let him know under what circumstanses he get's the best performance of this lens.

    [end of quote]

    I have attached two screenprints to show you what I am talking about. The shot was taken at f/11.

    Regards

    Piet Gispen
    http://www.pietgispen.com

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    That is very disappointing.

    We are still waiting for our copy to do a thorough test and evaluation.

    It is true that a retrofocus tilt-shift lens (nikon, canon, phase, hasselblad, leica etc) can ever come close to the quality produced by a dedicated tech body with non-retrofocus large format lenses with tilt-shift. In addition we were not expecting stellar performance at the corners when near wide-open. However, we (Capture Integration) were hoping for much better performance at f/11 than your example! If what you shoot is mostly landscape then you need to be using a tech camera. However, we were hoping this T/S lens would be a good, lightweight, option for those who mostly shoot something else, but wanted to add T/S to their arsenal.

    If you don't mind I will withhold my final judgement until I've evaluated one myself (this is not an issue of trusting you of course; I hope that is clear). However, if our tests shows similar results then we surely will not recommend the lens in the same way.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    By the way, there is a 50mm SHIFT (no tilt) lens by Mamiya in the classic glass line. They are hard to find, but it is reasonably sharp, and even though it's rare it is much less expensive than the TS. Like any other lens you'd want to try it yourself in person prior to buying if at all possible.

    We will have a 50mm shift lens at the MoAb event.

    Doug
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 8th January 2009 at 06:50.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    This is shocking. Frankly 80% of the reason I bought the Phase was to use this one lens and I assumed when the loaner I got was bad that it was a duff sample.

    I have cut and pasted here the only stuff I can find on their website about it. In no way does it imply that you can only use the centre portion of the lens or that it's only suitable for packshots.

    I feel very sorry for good dealers who work hard and them find themselves asked to sell or explain this sort of thing.

    Tim

    Attachment 10670

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    If this is true, (and I will wait to hear more solid facts, before forming my final opinion)
    I would think it's very disappointing.
    and why would one use a wider lens for "Pack" shots?
    clearly this focal length lends itself to Architecture and Landscape.
    am

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    I havent shot brickwalls but I bet the new Nikon 24 PCE-lens can do better than what we see here. I dont think its expected that the Phase lens would deliever the same IQ as a large format lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    That is very disappointing.

    We are still waiting for our copy to do a thorough test and evaluation.

    It is true that a retrofocus tilt-shift lens (nikon, canon, phase, hasselblad, leica etc) can ever come close to the quality produced by a dedicated tech body with non-retrofocus large format lenses with tilt-shift. In addition we were not expecting stellar performance at the corners when near wide-open. However, we (Capture Integration) were hoping for much better performance at f/11 than your example! If what you shoot is mostly landscape then you need to be using a tech camera. However, we were hoping this T/S lens would be a good, lightweight, option for those who mostly shoot something else, but wanted to add T/S to their arsenal.

    If you don't mind I will withhold my final judgement until I've evaluated one myself (this is not an issue of trusting you of course; I hope that is clear). However, if our tests shows similar results then we surely will not recommend the lens in the same way.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    I never thought very highly of the Canon 24mm T/S lens, but it is much better than what is shown here, especially stopped down a little. This is just a disgrace. I cannot believe that Phase One is shrugging it off. It is like they have forgotten that they are a high-quality flag bearer.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    I have to agree, this is very disappointing assuming all they did was re-badge the original Hartblei Super Rotator. They should have known as we all did that the performance of those lenses had huge sample to sample variability, some are reportedly quite good, while others -- or most -- were marginal at best.
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    And at $3000+ over the original Harblei I was expecting a lot also. I am very dissapointed as I found my Canon T/S lenses quite valuable for landscape work. Unfortunately I have no interest in a technical camera. The Hassy t/s solution is looking like the more well thought out one while the Hartblei rebadge is looking like it may have been a "quick fix" gone wrong thought up by some Phase marketing guys. At my company it is a full time job to keep our marketing guys "under control"

  10. #10
    Pedro Mendes
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    I suspect this is more a mechanical problem than an optical one.My useless Hartblei 35mm Nikon mount suffers from the same disease.But it cost "only" 900 Usd.
    Pedro

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    From the Hassy datasheet for the HTS 1.5

    'The sharpness at the edge of the frame, despite the fact that the lens
    is pushed to its limits, remains stunning'

    Sounds like it might be a touch better eh?

    t

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    The problem with the Hassy is the widest lens you can use is the 28, then it gets the teleconverter factor of 1.5 for a net focal of 42mm. However, I tested that exact combo at my local dealer's on a tabletop set-up they had and:

    1) there was a *huge* amount of distortion -- and enough to be virtually unusable -- so maybe the software does not correct the 28 if used with the HTS?

    2) there was not enough tilt available for a typical table-top set-up all in the same plane of focus parallel to the tabletop...

    ~~~

    So I conclude from this limited experience that the *only* viable solution for tilt (at normal to wide focals*) is a dedicated tilt-shift camera like the Silvestri or Arca using the best digital specific view lenses.

    * FWIW I do have a manual Mamiya 645 bellows unit that will mount on the AFD2/3 bodies with a minor modification. It allows for tilt, swing, rise, fall and shift on the front standard, but due the the combined extensions will only achieve infinity focus with lenses of about 105mm or longer, though given normal working distances it is probably still of practical use for tabletop with lenses as short as 80mm or so. I currently use it with an old 127mm Ektar and it makes a great "portrait" lens wide open and then sharpens to contemporary lens performance by f8 or so.
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Hey Jack
    Maybe you dealer didn't have the latest version of Phocus? The 28 f4 is one of the recommended lenses and the data sheet shows great looking examples taken with it...

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The problem with the Hassy is the widest lens you can use is the 28, then it gets the teleconverter factor of 1.5 for a net focal of 42mm. However, I tested that exact combo at my local dealer's on a tabletop set-up they had and:

    1) there was a *huge* amount of distortion -- and enough to be virtually unusable -- so maybe the software does not correct the 28 if used with the HTS?

    2) there was not enough tilt available for a typical table-top set-up all in the same plane of focus parallel to the tabletop...

    ~~~

    So I conclude from this limited experience that the *only* viable solution for tilt (at normal to wide focals*) is a dedicated tilt-shift camera like the Silvestri or Arca using the best digital specific view lenses.
    o
    Jack,

    1) Phocus will correct the distortion on the HTS with the 28mm. I doubt the dealer had access to a version of Phocus with all the latest correction tables. Full correction of the HTS was taken out of the shipping version of Phocus as there are no customers using it yet(!) and the tables have had some tweaks here and then with the final optics.

    2) Not my experience as we (and I) have done quite a few table tops, and a speed boat, and got a massive increase in DOF.

    Cheers,


    David

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    It was the Hassy rep demo-ing it at the dealer's -- I just assumed he'd be using the latest of everything, but perhaps not...
    Jack
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It was the Hassy rep at the dealer's -- I can only assume he'd be using the latest of everything...
    No we don't let any staff have the latest stuff. ;-)

    He would have been using most likely using the version of Phocus we had a Photokina, which had the last full set of tables. The latest Alpha version has many changes to this part of it and some very nice new additions and other features. This has only be distributed to a few of us as of a couple of days ago.

    Cheers,

    David

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    The stuff we can't get is always better it seems, and that is from everyone.
    Remember... What you see is what you get
    -bob

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    No we don't let any staff have the latest stuff. ;-)

    He would have been using most likely using the version of Phocus we had a Photokina, which had the last full set of tables. The latest Alpha version has many changes to this part of it and some very nice new additions and other features. This has only be distributed to a few of us as of a couple of days ago.

    Cheers,

    David
    Well there you go, that explains it
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Jack,

    1) Phocus will correct the distortion on the HTS with the 28mm. I doubt the dealer had access to a version of Phocus with all the latest correction tables. Full correction of the HTS was taken out of the shipping version of Phocus as there are no customers using it yet(!) and the tables have had some tweaks here and then with the final optics.

    2) Not my experience as we (and I) have done quite a few table tops, and a speed boat, and got a massive increase in DOF.

    Cheers,


    David
    David
    Have you tried it for any landscape or architectural work?

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    David
    Have you tried it for any landscape or architectural work?
    Hey tashley,

    Sorry for not writing sooner. Been flying back and forth the globe over the weekend.

    In the HTS brochure there is a shot in Sweden with a simple architecture shot. Perhaps download and take a look? It won't give you a proper impression as of course it is a PDF and not a file you can see at 100%. However we also did a stitching shot with the 28MM and the HTS which gave us great coverage with two (maybe three?) images on a panoramic off the harbour in Goteborg.

    We made a large format print in Denmark and it looked exceptional. It is easy to stitch of course as we just rotated the adapter 90 and used the shift for the captures.

    If I can find the files next week I will send you something. (Currently on holidays this week in Canada)

    Best,



    David

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Ill make it easier...

    http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1332...tasheet_v6.pdf

    The architectural images are there.

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    David, Thanks very much indeed! Extremely useful. I'd love to see the full sized ones at some point as well.

    Have a great vacation!

    Tim

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    An update on the Hartblei/Mamiya 45 rotator.

    I obtained another copy and tested it and discovered what I think may be the inkling of an answer to the lens' peculiar performance traits --- I suspect the lens elements are decentered purposely in an effort to center the optical sweet-spot with 5mm of shift imparted(!)

    IOW, the sharpest way to use the lens is with 5mm of shift; at 0 you are at one side of the IC and at 10mm shift you are at the other, and while 12mm is allowed it is marked in red denoting performance falloff.

    Another way to use this info is to extrapolate that if the lens is set to 0 shift, then the weakest performing area will be opposite the direction of shift, and the strongest area will be in the direction of shift -- so orient the shift direction to suit the image if using the lens zeroed. For example, when shooting a conventional landscape with sky and detailed mid and foreground, orient the lens so the shift direction is down -- in this way the foreground and mid-ground will be in the crispest region of the lens and let the sky goes soft near the top of the frame.

    Hope this helps some of you get more from this lens!

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    An update on the Hartblei/Mamiya 45 rotator.

    I obtained another copy and tested it and discovered what I think may be the inkling of an answer to the lens' peculiar performance traits --- I suspect the lens elements are decentered purposely in an effort to center the optical sweet-spot with 5mm of shift imparted(!)

    IOW, the sharpest way to use the lens is with 5mm of shift; at 0 you are at one side of the IC and at 10mm shift you are at the other, and while 12mm is allowed it is marked in red denoting performance falloff.

    Another way to use this info is to extrapolate that if the lens is set to 0 shift, then the weakest performing area will be opposite the direction of shift, and the strongest area will be in the direction of shift -- so orient the shift direction to suit the image if using the lens zeroed. For example, when shooting a conventional landscape with sky and detailed mid and foreground, orient the lens so the shift direction is down -- in this way the foreground and mid-ground will be in the crispest region of the lens and let the sky goes soft near the top of the frame.

    Hope this helps some of you get more from this lens!

    Cheers,

    I think I'd more or less reached the same conclusions though I hadn't twigged that it might be purposeful on the manufacturing front! I have gotten into the habit of rotating the lens so as to put the weak spot where I least mind it, and it's a piece of glass I'm starting to love.

    Got my Silvestri/Schneider combo today and though I'm sure this is because it needs shimming or whatever, my 395 Hartblei gives sharper results.

    It's a strange and often surprising world!

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    I'm curious to see how the Leica 30mm T/S for the S-System will fare against the HTS and the Phase 45mm T/S. Leica will be the only company designing and manufacturing their own lenses in this range when the S2 comes to market. Phase uses Mamiya and Hartblei, Hasselblad works together with Fuji, Sinar uses Zeiss and Schneider lenses. Leica is an optics company, first and foremost. I'm hoping to see more at PMA and already have an appointment with the S2 product manager.

    Just a thought, but I tend to doubt that Leica would put out a lens like this and just shrug off performance sacrifices (expecially at this price point).

    David
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Given my experience with Leica, I would be shocked if the S system lenses weren't the best available in medium format -- probably by a wide margin. I would also be shocked if they averaged less than 5000 dollars a lens for any other than the 75mm.
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    We have always heard that medium format lenses resolve (lppm) so little compared to 35mm lenses because they don't need to, since the negatives/sensors are larger. I sincerely doubt that Leica will use this excuse, and I expect that we will see some lenses resolving far more than most of the competition, especially in the wide angle and T/S segments.
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    We have always heard that medium format lenses resolve (lppm) so little compared to 35mm lenses because they don't need to, since the negatives/sensors are larger. I sincerely doubt that Leica will use this excuse, and I expect that we will see some lenses resolving far more than most of the competition, especially in the wide angle and T/S segments.
    I also believe that Leica will present some fine lenses. However from what we see from lenses of existing systems (maybe besides T/S) I dont see any real "problem" with optical quality from Schneider , Zeiss, Mamiya or Hassy lenses if we look at the results.
    Too bad that the T/S etc will appear leater in the future, and the fact that there will be no used market for such lenses in the first 1-2 years will not make it (financially) easier to step into such a system as an amateur photographer.

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    It is true, there are specific lenses with very good performance. However, I am not aware of any current/recent lens lineup which had uniformly high standards across the lineup, possibly except the Contax 645 lineup (maybe not the 45mm though...), and the F/FE Hassie lenses were apparently also pretty uniformly good. In general, there have always been mediocre standard lenses, weak wide angles, and macros lenses which were soft at infinity, as well as teles with soft corners.

    Is the Rollei lens lineup really exempt? I know that there are some great lenses there, but are they *all* great?

    I do expect Leica to provide a consistently stunning lens lineup from bottom to top, corner-to-corner, plus or minus some QC and replacement copies.
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Is the Rollei lens lineup really exempt? I know that there are some great lenses there, but are they *all* great?
    I only can comment on the lenses I use: I havent had any reason to complain so far regarding the Schneider 40mm, the Xenotar 80mm and the Zeiss 110mm - I would even say that I really like those 3. The 150 ZEISS I havent used much so I cant comment at all (I dont feel I really need it after getting the 110)
    But those are only 3 lenses and I cant comment on the others of the Rollei lens setup. Plus I use them with "only" 22 MP.
    One thing I have to admit is that the lens range from Rollei is somewhat more limited compared to other brands, probably due to the bigger format.
    (So far) nothing wider than 40, some lenses only in MF version, 55 as widest T/S,...
    This is fine for me, but I guess one has to admit that Hassy for example offers many more options plus the T/S adapter.
    For me its not so important that all lenses from a brand are great, for me its important that the focal length I want/need are "great".

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    In fairness to Leica, I don't think this system is aimed at amateurs, so they can be forgiven for not making used lenses available for it. It is being designed from the ground up.

    As for Rollei, I guess I am a bit more picky. Most of the lenses are very very good, but I am not extremely happy with the 40mm -- there is a lot of distortion (to my eyes), and it is not very sharp at f/3.5, f/4 or f/4.5. The corners don't get very sharp until f/11 I would say. I do like the size and ergonomics though. As for the other lenses, the 80mm is faultless. The 150 Tele-Xenar is excellent, though focuses only to 1.4m. It is better than the 150mm Zeiss, which is still good, but not as sharp, particularly at f/4. The 110/2 is superb, but of course it is not beyond reproach wide open (its look is, but objectively it is not great other than in the center when used wide open). The 180/2.8 is very good from f/4, though it is a monstrous lens (same with the 110/2). I have not used the others. None of these lenses are as technically spectacular as, for example, the APO Leica lenses, or the ASPH wide angles....the R system too, so not just the M lenses. For this reason, and the fact that they will not have to use as large an image circle, I suspect that the Leica lenses will be significantly better.
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    One problem I have withe the Leica S2 idea - is that I wont be able to shoot film with the system. This is a significant factor ( for me) - understand that with all other lens designs - one can shoot film and digi.

    If I wanted the absolute 'best' proven in the field and studio and ridiculously expensive glass it would be the autofocus Zeiss series exclusively designed for the Sinar M - these will be the benchmark against which Leica's claims will be tested.

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Peter are you aware of anywhere where people have posted impressions or tests of these lenses? I am not convinced there are more than 3 people on the planet have ever used them...even then what makes them better? It is still an 80mm planar, a 40mm distagon, a 120mm f/4 makro planar and a 180mm sonnar....is there any evidence that the designs have been updated or upgraded other than adding the AF?
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    In fairness to Leica, I don't think this system is aimed at amateurs, so they can be forgiven for not making used lenses available for it. It is being designed from the ground up.
    I dont think it is aimed at amateurs, but I believe that in the end amateurs will be an important part of the customers.
    Regarding the Rollei lenses: My experience is limited to few weeks and limited to mainly landscape and some personal portrait stuff.
    Also I have to say that I judge more from the overall impression at looking at images than searching/analysing certain factors. If I dont see anything wrong in an image I am not searching for it.

    Judging this way I feel I dont miss anything in the 40,80,110 compared to what I get from the comparable Leica M lenses on the M8 but I am confident that a carefull analyses might very well show differences as mentioned by Stuart.
    Last edited by Paratom; 12th February 2009 at 05:06.

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Yes, I have been shooting these lenses for about three years, so I have some more time with them. I don't tend to shoot brick walls and lens charts though. My general pattern is that I will shoot something, and I may notice a problem. If that is the case, I will shoot a test to see if it was something like me missing focus or shaking the camera, or whether it is a feature of the camera. The other issue with medium format digital is that since the backs are so slow (usually base ISO of 50, though "50" on my back is actually 25...or less), there is an incentive to shoot them wide open even if you have a tripod. This is particularly the case with portraiture.

    People who are always shooting landscapes may say, well just put it on a tripod and shoot a 1 second exposure at f/11. But if you are trying to photograph a person in that landscape, 1 second is not going to cut it, so you need to shoot the lens wide open (which is usually f/2.8-4...not that fast)....then you start to see some of the failings of these lenses. The other solution is to spend a few thousand bucks on a good battery based strobe system, but it's just another thing to carry, set up, bring along, get rained on, etc etc.

    By the way, sorry to bring this thread SO far off track...
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Peter are you aware of anywhere where people have posted impressions or tests of these lenses? I am not convinced there are more than 3 people on the planet have ever used them...even then what makes them better? It is still an 80mm planar, a 40mm distagon, a 120mm f/4 makro planar and a 180mm sonnar....is there any evidence that the designs have been updated or upgraded other than adding the AF?
    Hi Stuart - Regarding useage I dont know about the rest of the world, but I do know who buys and uses the system in Australia - pretty much large Museums & Art galleries for copy and archival work. The Sinar dealer down has been kind enough to offer an introduction to some people at the National Art Gallery in Melbourne so I can check out how they use stuff as well as some high end flat bed scanning equipment from CREO.

    If I take up the offer I will keep you posted.

    Regarding quality and formulations - I have just started the process of investigation - again will let you know if you are interested.

    Pete

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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Sounds good. Let me know if you learn anything in particular. I must say I find it odd though that they would choose an autofocus camera system for copy and archival work...I can see using the Sinar M in a different configuration (like on a view camera), but it seems like the AF module and the extreme cost of those lenses would be wasted on completely static subjects. Why not just use one of the great Sinar view cameras and the Schneider or Rodenstock digital lenses? Anyway...
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

    Hi Stuart - typically these institutions will buy an M system as the shutter device on a P3 ( view camera) and use both the Sinar digi lenses and teh SLR lenses. I am as keen as you to know why and how..

    I am considering the same set-up for my stilllife work and have more interest in getting the right view camera and lens system than buying the next elephantine megapixel back. thsi is why I am a very happy chappy with swapping into teh 75LV back and out of Phase One. Fo emy purposes the H3D11-39 is all the autofocus and Leaf shutter horsepower I need. Sinar gives me a far greater total system intergration potential from a view camera perspective.

    pete

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    Re: If you are looking for a Mamiya 645 50mm shift, I am selling one

    I am selling my Mamiya 645 50mm Shift here are some images.

    http://photosofarkansas.com/gallery/...g2_itemId=1771

    Paul Caldwell

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