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Alarming news o the PhaseOne 45 TS

P

Piet Gispen

Guest
Some of us have already reported on the optical quality of the new PhaseOne 45mm TS lens: the center is sharp enough, the left side of a photo almost blurred, while the right side is unsharp. Below follows the comment from PhaseOne which received via my dealer. To be honest this is not what I expected as I find the lens almost unusable, in particular for interior photography. None of this was mentioned when I ordered my copy as part of an offer in September (PhaseOne camera, P45+, 120 mm, 80 mm, 45 mmTS). I have not yet spoken to my dealer, but I am curious to have their opinion.

we have evaluated the images and also comparred against the factory images we have made with the same lens here in our studio before shipping. Product Marketing and our highly estimated lens specialist have tested this partiquelar lens and comparred the images from the user with special attention.

Looking at the 3 images and also our test images made at f 3.5 - we find that they are all sharp in the middle on most f-stop's. The images from the user shows good overall sharpness in the middle which is also expected. Then when evaluating the images and lens getting closer to the edges - the charistichs of this lens is seen and also where the lens has it's strong points and also where the limitations starts.

The lens is very good at close up photography, tabletop, packshots etc. This is also seen in the samles shown in the small samplefolder that have been distributed with the lens. The lens can also be used shooting objects at longer distances however you will see the charistichs of the lens showing a fall of in sharpness on the edges. This is a known charistichs of this partiquelar lens and has never been stated as a strong point of this lens. The lens charistichs is very good at closer distances and some cropping needs to be added at longer distances - this is what can be achieved from this lens.

If the user needs to shoot at longer distances, location or landscape we recommend to use the Cambo or Horsemann with a Schneider lens or largeformat with digital lenses for wide angle. However the 45 T/S lens has it strong point a closer distances. F-stop from 8-16 is recommend to give the overall best results as stated in the marketing material and brochure.

Based on this we consider this lens to be within the specifications when used at the recommended set-up and f-stop's.

Thanks for your feedback. We kindly ask you to transfer the information to the enduser and let him know under what circumstanses he get's the best performance of this lens.

[end of quote]

I have attached two screenprints to show you what I am talking about. The shot was taken at f/11.

Regards

Piet Gispen
http://www.pietgispen.com
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
That is very disappointing.

We are still waiting for our copy to do a thorough test and evaluation.

It is true that a retrofocus tilt-shift lens (nikon, canon, phase, hasselblad, leica etc) can ever come close to the quality produced by a dedicated tech body with non-retrofocus large format lenses with tilt-shift. In addition we were not expecting stellar performance at the corners when near wide-open. However, we (Capture Integration) were hoping for much better performance at f/11 than your example! If what you shoot is mostly landscape then you need to be using a tech camera. However, we were hoping this T/S lens would be a good, lightweight, option for those who mostly shoot something else, but wanted to add T/S to their arsenal.

If you don't mind I will withhold my final judgement until I've evaluated one myself (this is not an issue of trusting you of course; I hope that is clear). However, if our tests shows similar results then we surely will not recommend the lens in the same way.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
By the way, there is a 50mm SHIFT (no tilt) lens by Mamiya in the classic glass line. They are hard to find, but it is reasonably sharp, and even though it's rare it is much less expensive than the TS. Like any other lens you'd want to try it yourself in person prior to buying if at all possible.

We will have a 50mm shift lens at the MoAb event.

Doug
 
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tashley

Subscriber Member
This is shocking. Frankly 80% of the reason I bought the Phase was to use this one lens and I assumed when the loaner I got was bad that it was a duff sample.

I have cut and pasted here the only stuff I can find on their website about it. In no way does it imply that you can only use the centre portion of the lens or that it's only suitable for packshots.

I feel very sorry for good dealers who work hard and them find themselves asked to sell or explain this sort of thing.

Tim

View attachment 10670
 

arashm

Member
If this is true, (and I will wait to hear more solid facts, before forming my final opinion)
I would think it's very disappointing.
and why would one use a wider lens for "Pack" shots?
clearly this focal length lends itself to Architecture and Landscape.
am
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I havent shot brickwalls but I bet the new Nikon 24 PCE-lens can do better than what we see here. I dont think its expected that the Phase lens would deliever the same IQ as a large format lens.

That is very disappointing.

We are still waiting for our copy to do a thorough test and evaluation.

It is true that a retrofocus tilt-shift lens (nikon, canon, phase, hasselblad, leica etc) can ever come close to the quality produced by a dedicated tech body with non-retrofocus large format lenses with tilt-shift. In addition we were not expecting stellar performance at the corners when near wide-open. However, we (Capture Integration) were hoping for much better performance at f/11 than your example! If what you shoot is mostly landscape then you need to be using a tech camera. However, we were hoping this T/S lens would be a good, lightweight, option for those who mostly shoot something else, but wanted to add T/S to their arsenal.

If you don't mind I will withhold my final judgement until I've evaluated one myself (this is not an issue of trusting you of course; I hope that is clear). However, if our tests shows similar results then we surely will not recommend the lens in the same way.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

carstenw

Active member
I never thought very highly of the Canon 24mm T/S lens, but it is much better than what is shown here, especially stopped down a little. This is just a disgrace. I cannot believe that Phase One is shrugging it off. It is like they have forgotten that they are a high-quality flag bearer.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I have to agree, this is very disappointing assuming all they did was re-badge the original Hartblei Super Rotator. They should have known as we all did that the performance of those lenses had huge sample to sample variability, some are reportedly quite good, while others -- or most -- were marginal at best.
 

smhoer

New member
And at $3000+ over the original Harblei I was expecting a lot also. I am very dissapointed as I found my Canon T/S lenses quite valuable for landscape work. Unfortunately I have no interest in a technical camera. The Hassy t/s solution is looking like the more well thought out one while the Hartblei rebadge is looking like it may have been a "quick fix" gone wrong thought up by some Phase marketing guys. At my company it is a full time job to keep our marketing guys "under control" :)
 
P

Pedro Mendes

Guest
I suspect this is more a mechanical problem than an optical one.My useless Hartblei 35mm Nikon mount suffers from the same disease.But it cost "only" 900 Usd.
Pedro
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
From the Hassy datasheet for the HTS 1.5

'The sharpness at the edge of the frame, despite the fact that the lens
is pushed to its limits, remains stunning'

Sounds like it might be a touch better eh?

t
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The problem with the Hassy is the widest lens you can use is the 28, then it gets the teleconverter factor of 1.5 for a net focal of 42mm. However, I tested that exact combo at my local dealer's on a tabletop set-up they had and:

1) there was a *huge* amount of distortion -- and enough to be virtually unusable -- so maybe the software does not correct the 28 if used with the HTS?

2) there was not enough tilt available for a typical table-top set-up all in the same plane of focus parallel to the tabletop...

~~~

So I conclude from this limited experience that the *only* viable solution for tilt (at normal to wide focals*) is a dedicated tilt-shift camera like the Silvestri or Arca using the best digital specific view lenses.

* FWIW I do have a manual Mamiya 645 bellows unit that will mount on the AFD2/3 bodies with a minor modification. It allows for tilt, swing, rise, fall and shift on the front standard, but due the the combined extensions will only achieve infinity focus with lenses of about 105mm or longer, though given normal working distances it is probably still of practical use for tabletop with lenses as short as 80mm or so. I currently use it with an old 127mm Ektar and it makes a great "portrait" lens wide open and then sharpens to contemporary lens performance by f8 or so.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Hey Jack
Maybe you dealer didn't have the latest version of Phocus? The 28 f4 is one of the recommended lenses and the data sheet shows great looking examples taken with it...
 
The problem with the Hassy is the widest lens you can use is the 28, then it gets the teleconverter factor of 1.5 for a net focal of 42mm. However, I tested that exact combo at my local dealer's on a tabletop set-up they had and:

1) there was a *huge* amount of distortion -- and enough to be virtually unusable -- so maybe the software does not correct the 28 if used with the HTS?

2) there was not enough tilt available for a typical table-top set-up all in the same plane of focus parallel to the tabletop...

~~~

So I conclude from this limited experience that the *only* viable solution for tilt (at normal to wide focals*) is a dedicated tilt-shift camera like the Silvestri or Arca using the best digital specific view lenses.
o
Jack,

1) Phocus will correct the distortion on the HTS with the 28mm. I doubt the dealer had access to a version of Phocus with all the latest correction tables. Full correction of the HTS was taken out of the shipping version of Phocus as there are no customers using it yet(!) and the tables have had some tweaks here and then with the final optics.

2) Not my experience as we (and I) have done quite a few table tops, and a speed boat, and got a massive increase in DOF.

Cheers,


David
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
It was the Hassy rep demo-ing it at the dealer's -- I just assumed he'd be using the latest of everything, but perhaps not...
 
It was the Hassy rep at the dealer's -- I can only assume he'd be using the latest of everything...
No we don't let any staff have the latest stuff. ;-)

He would have been using most likely using the version of Phocus we had a Photokina, which had the last full set of tables. The latest Alpha version has many changes to this part of it and some very nice new additions and other features. This has only be distributed to a few of us as of a couple of days ago.

Cheers,

David
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
The stuff we can't get is always better it seems, and that is from everyone.
Remember... What you see is what you get
-bob
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
No we don't let any staff have the latest stuff. ;-)

He would have been using most likely using the version of Phocus we had a Photokina, which had the last full set of tables. The latest Alpha version has many changes to this part of it and some very nice new additions and other features. This has only be distributed to a few of us as of a couple of days ago.

Cheers,

David
Well there you go, that explains it :)
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Jack,

1) Phocus will correct the distortion on the HTS with the 28mm. I doubt the dealer had access to a version of Phocus with all the latest correction tables. Full correction of the HTS was taken out of the shipping version of Phocus as there are no customers using it yet(!) and the tables have had some tweaks here and then with the final optics.

2) Not my experience as we (and I) have done quite a few table tops, and a speed boat, and got a massive increase in DOF.

Cheers,


David
David
Have you tried it for any landscape or architectural work?
 
David
Have you tried it for any landscape or architectural work?
Hey tashley,

Sorry for not writing sooner. Been flying back and forth the globe over the weekend.

In the HTS brochure there is a shot in Sweden with a simple architecture shot. Perhaps download and take a look? It won't give you a proper impression as of course it is a PDF and not a file you can see at 100%. However we also did a stitching shot with the 28MM and the HTS which gave us great coverage with two (maybe three?) images on a panoramic off the harbour in Goteborg.

We made a large format print in Denmark and it looked exceptional. It is easy to stitch of course as we just rotated the adapter 90° and used the shift for the captures.

If I can find the files next week I will send you something. (Currently on holidays this week in Canada)

Best,



David
 
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