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MFD ... Emperor's New Clothes?

fotografz

Well-known member
I was about to raise my hand and call BS on this. We have all read the tests online that show clearly and definitively that digital is better than film. A contributor to the Luminous Landscape forum proudly proclaimed that he believes the Nikon D3x is easily the equivalent of 6x9 film. Heck, even way back in the day I sold 20x30 inch prints from a 10D that clients proudly displayed in their lobbies and paid well for them. Film is dead folks, deal with it.

But here's the thing. I have been mostly digital since about 2003, only shooting film for special projects, when I want that look, or when a digital body went down and I needed a backup. But, without exception, every picture gracing the walls in my home and in my office were shot on film -- all kinds of film, all formats of film. Not once before reading this thread did that cross my mind.

My digital processing skills were in demand because I could make digital look more like film than they thought possible and I sold all my Canon gear for Leica because I thought the DMR images looked more like film.

I've been saving my pennies to get a MFDB system, but really wanting to go buy Woody's Mamiya 7, another Fuji 6x9 or maybe a 4x5.

As far as a chemical print vs. a digital print, I strongly prefer digital so I can work the image the way I see fit, but several of the images in my house are chemical prints and despite my best efforts I could never duplicate the look. And even though I spent a small fortune (for me) on an HP printer and rolls of paper, it can't touch the tonality from a Lightjet 430 -- especially since the local lab (PhotoCraft) will run my files straight and I get exactly what I want.

I need therapy.
Funny stuff Bill.

I have a similar thing going on in my home ... one framed digital print ... from the DMR no less, LOL! All the rest are from film, and 95% of those are silver prints.

One of my favorites is a diptych of an old Merry-go-round at rest and blurred in motion that I shot with a Mamiya 7II and 43mm which I've yet to visibly match with any digital capture image. A majority of prints on my walls are collector's silver prints I bought back in the "Fat '80s" before MF Digital and Wall Street stripped me of most my disposable income :ROTFL:

Nothing like a reminder of what it "should" look like every time I walk up to my studio ;)
 

woodyspedden

New member
Bill

Just to add to the dilemma, after shooting a few rolls of TriX on the Mamiya 7II in the past two weeks, I withdrew the auction. I was so blown away by things I knew the system did well, but which i guess I forgot after not picking up the camera in over a year, that I concluded selling this system was a serious mistake. Is it film, size of image captured, or something else? I don't know for sure but I know that I love what I am capturing with the 7II and i should resist any temptation to sell it because after it is gone I will seriously regret it.

Woody
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Bill

Just to add to the dilemma, after shooting a few rolls of TriX on the Mamiya 7II in the past two weeks, I withdrew the auction. I was so blown away by things I knew the system did well, but which i guess I forgot after not picking up the camera in over a year, that I concluded selling this system was a serious mistake. Is it film, size of image captured, or something else? I don't know for sure but I know that I love what I am capturing with the 7II and i should resist any temptation to sell it because after it is gone I will seriously regret it.

Woody
I don't know about this whole film vs digital quandry.....but I am definitely lusting after a Mamiya 7 and 43mm lens.....thank you very much Woody (and Marc)!!!! :D

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Ok, I'm going to offer my serious and considered opinion on this....and of course, it is just my opinion.

I like both, I'm happy with both, I don't think either is inherently better than the other any more. There are two images of my own that I really like and other folks seem to feel the same about (both have been selected for Alaska wide juried photography exhibits). One was taken with a lowly Canon D60 DSLR (only 6 megapixels), the other with a 4x5 view camera. Digital vs film....doesn't get much different than these two images.

Honestly, I don't think it makes that much difference, digital vs film. Shoot whatever you like...it's the final image or print that matters, not the camera or technology that captured it or produced it (the medium/technology is not the message?). Digital or film, silver or inkjet....I'm happy either way.

Ok, it's true....personally, I would never go back to the wet darkroom....more than anything else....Photoshop and the digital darkroom rules! :thumbs:

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska
 

KeithL

Well-known member
I also do not buy that content is the end all, so it doesn't matter what is used. IMO, with a photograph just as with a painting, an intrinsic part of conveying the emotional content is the medium itself.
Agreed, but there is a danger in becoming so obsessed by the science and maths - witness the Internet fora - that we loose sight of what image making should be about, communication and creativity.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I recall an article from the Leica magazine when they compared the DMR with film (in this case Velvia - and no, it is not my favorite film, and Tri_X I think).
However they wrote that people post process digital files often much more in a neutral way, while many films deliever tonality and colors which would be not as neutral/ "correct" but much more interesting.
This starts with shaddows, do we allways want detail in shaddows or doesnt it may look more powerfull with some blacks?
White balance: do we want neutral looking colors if we photograph in the evening sun , or in bulb light, ore in the early morning? Is a white card really the best way to white balance?
Maybe there is a risk of looking too much into histograms etc. instead processing images more powerfull and intuitive to the taste of our eyes.

One thing where I am nearly sure that film beats sensors is the transition between sharp and unsharp and I believe its caused by the thicker film emulsion compared to a pretty flat sensor. More abrupt in digital, and the DOF seems shallower.

The other area is that I belive films can handle mixed light mostly better than sensors do.

The last point is that grain seems to add depth sometimes.

If I had a professional lab available which would process all my images for low cost to my taste I would probably shoot a lot of film. But I dont so I shoot digital.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Bill

Just to add to the dilemma, after shooting a few rolls of TriX on the Mamiya 7II in the past two weeks, I withdrew the auction. I was so blown away by things I knew the system did well, but which i guess I forgot after not picking up the camera in over a year, that I concluded selling this system was a serious mistake. Is it film, size of image captured, or something else? I don't know for sure but I know that I love what I am capturing with the 7II and i should resist any temptation to sell it because after it is gone I will seriously regret it.

Woody
Woody, we all have regretted letting something go for practical reasons ... but I have to admit that only a few things I look back on were truly errors in judgement for me ... selling my two M7-IIs and all the lenses was one of the major ones I made ... followed by having sold my XPan-II :(

Glad you kept it my friend. But, if you ever change your mind just e-mail me first :ROTFL:
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i'm with bob, everthing is digitzed at some level.

as far as film, all of my work, B&W 6x6 and 4x5, consisted of deliberate, slow shooting and careful darkroom printing. form many of the images taken many years ago, I can still remember the details of where I set the tripod. my enlarger used a cold light to de-emphasize the crystalline nature of the emulsion and minimize surface artifacts. all of this is different from digital shooting today; no wonder the film has a different look
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
This is getting too heady for me but I do see something in drum scanned 4x5 Provia that I don't see in Aptus 75S files. Yeah it's the look.

But then the Aptus is a lot more versatile and generally I do prefer it. If I had a lesser digital camera probably I would still prefer film.
I think you've touched on an excellent point Doug. I would say the only files that truly "look better" than my P45+ files are a handfull of my best scanned Large Format -- though a few of my scanned 6x7's are close...
 

Mitchell

New member
I think "t streng" makes an important point. There is a lot of effort made in digital to get detail and neutral color by both shooters and manufacturers. It makes sense; digital is the new medium and has to prove itself competitive with film in these two areas.

But, when we speak of film we are talking about a bunch of different films tuned by color experts over decades, with different looks for different purposes and esthetics. As digital comes of age, perhaps, we will become more sophisticated at software tuning for different looks.

But, the sensor has to be (if we work with one camera) one size fits all looks so it has to be fairly neutral.

As far as looks. I trust people who say film looks different. I think all too often these discussions are based on theoretical ideas of what should make sense concerning resolution, color, etc. Intangibles are those things that can't be measured (yet or never), or don't conform to our current theoretical understanding. That does not mean our eyes can't perceive real differences that our brains can't explain.

Best,

Mitchell
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
One thing that really sets film apart for me is the sense that I feel more involved in the process, particularly in black and white. With slide film, everything needs to be done in camera -- you are literally creating the photo at that instant, furthermore, the display method is backlit and has a sense of realism that is almost impossible to equal.

But it is really black and white (or color negative if you shoot it) that leads to a fundamental difference -- I make the image in the camera (no interpolation of bayer filters etc...it is just the light that I decide to let in, focused on the film), I process the film in my choice of chemicals which creates the negative image. Then I print it in an enlarger, physically creating a unique image, etched in silver that will last decades or even centuries. You have to use your hands to physically draw out an image, and even if you argue that raw processing has a similar effect, the physical act of printing has a very different feel. I think this is why certain photographic collectors still have a much stronger attachment to film than to inkjet prints -- they feel there is more of the artist in the works. Obviously this is a subjective matter, but I think it is another reason why certain people (myself among them) still prefer film...it makes them feel closer to the image -- the actual object d'art (to use a snobby term).
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Marc I have experienced the same regarding personal favourites and after much thought I had to put my mathematicians head back on to explain the phenomenon. I think we are experiencing a simple statistical error in concluding film produces more keepers versus digital. The error is a sampling error involving a number of potential biases - most notably the so called 'survivor bias'.

Simply put - if a person has been shooting for many years - by definition the film years ( still?) outnumber the digital years. Added to this is the fact that in using personal work to define 'favourites' and personal work often having a bias towards film shootin ( I know that is the case fo rme) a person is actually biasing towards film again.

Only time will tell...

Regarding film 'profiles' versus digital processing - I still prefer to use B&W, although recently I have become impressed with SilverFX.

One thing for sure as Stuart alludes to - the whole process of making images with film is different and I agree in many ways more involved and contemplative. Again a different process will deliver different personal value beliefs again biasing the ourtcomes! -:)

I wont be selling my Leica MPs, my XPan or my MF film backs any time soon.:ROTFL:
 
One thing that really sets film apart for me is the sense that I feel more involved in the process,
Interesting. I really prefer digital for that reason -- because I am more involved in the process. Heck, I control the whole process. At the time of capture I can check the histogram to make sure I am capturing all the information available in a scene (or at least not losing anything I need), and then in post I can craft the picture exactly how I want it.

With film, I feel like I am just along for the ride. I can control the general tonal curve of the image by selecting a film with that response and deciding whether to process straight or push, and trying to guess at an exposure that records my vision of the scene faithfully. BUT, I don't really know what it looks like until I get it back from the lab, if there is a mechanical problem with the camera I won't know until I get the film back, if my lab screws it up, if the film scans poorly, if if if if if if if. My 10D was an eye opener because for the first time I was in total control of the entire image making process and it was like having a polaroid for every image!

The other thing that really shaped my view of the photographic process was when I started selling all my Canon gear and bought Leica, but had not yet found a DMR. At the time I was doing digital work for a well know travel photographer who would come back from a trip with 5,000 - 10,000 images from his digital Nikons. Sorry to toot my own horn, but I worked digital magic and made the images really look like film. Every. Single. One. But as fast as I was, it was still a lot of time, but there is no way anyone could turn around that volume of film on the deadlines we had. Since I was sans digital I was back to shooting film. It seemed like every frame that came back from the lab was perfect -- no processing necessary.

I had neither time nor energy for my own work (even dealing with clients) so I loaded up the R8. The film that came back blew me away. Staring back at me was the look I had spent years trying to create with Canon and Nikon digital. Even with the DMR, I have created "recipes" for NPH, Provia and Velvia.
 

helenhill

Senior Member
Well Silly Little Me
prefers to SHOOT Film, develop negs
send out to be scanned
& a Sprinkle of Digital Darkroom PP...:grin:
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I think we have some different ideas about the process...I suppose I am largely thinking that most digital cameras are purely electronic beasts, they will focus the lens, set the aperture, wind the film...oh, wait...;) reset the shutter and so on (though not all...certainly some of the MFDB's and the RD-1, M8 etc allow more involvement). The light hits the CCD or CMOS and then usually goes through an IR filter, then an AA filter (again, usually), then the camera decides based on probability and complex algorithms, what color that particular area should be. It is an educated guess, albeit one that is extraordinarily accurate in the best cameras. Then, some sort of voodoo goes on in the camera and the data from the sensor is prepped for writing onto a storage device and an image is popped up onto the LCD. Later, you take this data and copy the 1's and 0's onto a computer, and a you bring up the image on your monitor, introducing a whole new set of educated guesses based on software and hardware calibration...again, extremely accurate in the best cases. There you can modify the data in a million ways through sophisticated software. You take eyedroppers and click on what you want neutral, you look at a graphic representation of the tonal range of the image and pull down and push up on that curve, shifting it at will...you have electronic noise averaged out or added to the image. Finally, you might decide to add little light pixels and little black pixels at the very smallest sizes in areas of tonal transition, so that your image appears to be sharper. Almost none of this is done by free hand -- it is all facilitated by extremely complex machines, churning through calculations at astounding speeds.

I just feel like I am more of a factor in what is going on in a film camera -- it's just me and chemical reactions -- generally the cameras are simpler -- many are entirely mechanical. I turn the lens to focus it, I turn the aperture ring to set it, I rotate the wheel to set the speed, I wind on the film when I have taken the photo. The same goes in the darkroom -- I load the reel, I mix the chemicals to my desired composition, I shake it the way I want, let it in there for the time I want. Once the negative is created, it is like being at the camera again -- I set the focus and image size, the aperture, and I use my actual hands to dodge or burn the prints. I place the image in the developer, agitate it by hand, decide when I want to stop the development, same with the fixer...do I tone or bleach? Again, it is either timed and done by hand, or selectively with a sponge or brush. Does it need spotting? I better get my ink and brush...

Believe me, I know there is a place for digital and a place for film, and that both can be equally representative of an artist's intention, I just feel that there is more of ME in a darkroom print or even film scan I make than there is in a digital print. And I know that many do not share that view, and that it would be easy to argue that you have less control in the film based process. However, it is a FEELING, and as such I don't have to justify it to you bozos! ;P
 

woodyspedden

New member
Marc I have experienced the same regarding personal favourites and after much thought I had to put my mathematicians head back on to explain the phenomenon. I think we are experiencing a simple statistical error in concluding film produces more keepers versus digital. The error is a sampling error involving a number of potential biases - most notably the so called 'survivor bias'.

Simply put - if a person has been shooting for many years - by definition the film years ( still?) outnumber the digital years. Added to this is the fact that in using personal work to define 'favourites' and personal work often having a bias towards film shootin ( I know that is the case fo rme) a person is actually biasing towards film again.

Only time will tell...

Regarding film 'profiles' versus digital processing - I still prefer to use B&W, although recently I have become impressed with SilverFX.

One thing for sure as Stuart alludes to - the whole process of making images with film is different and I agree in many ways more involved and contemplative. Again a different process will deliver different personal value beliefs again biasing the ourtcomes! -:)

I wont be selling my Leica MPs, my XPan or my MF film backs any time soon.:ROTFL:
Peter

It is not your damned XPan II, it is mine. Sorry that I sold it to you (not really my friend) so I only hope you love it as much as you say. It was a real mistake on my part given that I now realize what a wonderful instrument this really is. So enjoy, and at least give us the benefit of seeing some of your work with this system.

Your pal

Woody
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have not delved into this thread much and I just got home from 10 days in LA and a little beat up but honestly I have not shot film in so long and I mean years here like maybe almost a decade I simply have forgot about it. Commercially I can't shoot film and personally really never bothered to shoot film again, I like the extra control I have now after the fact and can change my mind easier. Other than that it is a older medium for me and just a means to a end. i really don't put much stock in how I get there just as long as i do , I work really hard at many things in photography to get to a image and the medium itself is not so important to me. I will do things differently on the tech side but in the end I view them somewhat equally. My theory is i have to shoot digital so i will work as hard as i can to make it what i want not what it is or it is supposed to be. I just don't believe in limits. Like many things in photography what some camera's are supposed to be or better at i just break those rules all the time.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Hey Woody - I am very grateful about the XPan kit - as you know I goofed selling mine a few years ago..thats why I jumped on you - when you were thinking about selling the mamiya 711...-:)


PS thinking about that spare 203 of yours..( seriously) I have been shooting with a 205TCC and a CFV11 back - and I just love the combination..so teh idea of a back up film body appeals..


Pete
 

bensonga

Well-known member
... heck, some of you got into digital capture, even MF digital capture at my urging ... or at least a little bit I think.
Yeah, that would be me (amongst others, I'm sure). Hey, what happened to those incredible "fat pixels" of the CFV?

Not that I regret it for a minute....film or fat pixels, either way works for me. :thumbs:

Gary Benson
Eagle River, Alaska
Proud owner of a CFV-II
 
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