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Thread: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

  1. #1
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    What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Hey,

    I am a RZ newb, just got my first MF this week.

    Gonna get up to speed on MF with 160 Portra.
    But I have had a MFDB on my mind all the time.

    So a few Qs:

    Is there any particular advantages with the Hassy V or Mamiya backs for the RZ? It seams obvious that the Mamiya should be better, but it seams the Hassy backs and adapters are cheaper.

    What is the difference between Mamiya and PhaseOne RZ adaptors for MFDB's? If any.

    I shoot D3x now I more or less only do portraits. I do not feel I need more than the 24MP that the D3x has so I have been looking in the range of DM22,DM28 and DM33.

    Please find some samples of my work.

    Daniel
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Some more shots:
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    First, the RZ is a 6x7camera and MFD sensors are very much smaller. You will need masks for your viewfinder. Going wide on this camera with lenses is going to be tough.

    I can recommend the Phase One p25+ back. I use one in the studio for still life and portraits. It is sharp and has great color. 60mm is normal for this back.
    Last edited by Shashin; 4th January 2014 at 11:15.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Shashin, Thanks for your feedback.

    I think the widest (non fisheye) is 50mm in the RZ range.
    What equivalent would that be on the P25+? About 36mm equivalent the D3x?

    Right now I only have the 110 2.8 on the RZ.

    What adapter are you using for the P25+?

    And yes, I do love the 14-24 2.8 on the D3x!
    I suspect I will not replace the D3x with the RZ just complement so I do not know if it's
    forte will be wide with the MFDB.

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    I used the P25+ and IQ260 with my RZ Pro IID too. If you use the HX701 adapter you can rotate the back and also don't need a spaghetti wiring complex.

    If you're not using the Pro IID then I believe you might need a sync cable in which case there wouldn't be much advantage overall whether you chose Mamiya or Hasselblad V mount for the back. The Pro IID is pretty nice in this respect.

    As Will mentioned, tough to get very wide with the RZ but it doesn't look like you need to anyway based on your images. (Excellent btw).

    Also, I found Frank Doorhof's blog useful:

    http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/201...s-rzrb-system/
    http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/201...iya-rz67proii/
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 4th January 2014 at 16:39.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Quote Originally Posted by cem3387 View Post
    What equivalent would that be on the P25+? About 36mm equivalent the D3x?
    That would be about right. The difference in aspect ratio will also make you feel a little less wide than the D3x.
    Will

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Quote Originally Posted by cem3387 View Post
    I think the widest (non fisheye) is 50mm in the RZ range.
    What equivalent would that be on the P25+? About 36mm equivalent the D3x?

    Right now I only have the 110 2.8 on the RZ.
    I don't have a RZ this time, but the P25+ is a 48x36mm Sensor. So we have to do a little bit math...

    The diameter of...

    P25+: 60 mm ( root of 48x48 + 36x36 )
    N FX: 43 mm ( root of 36x36 + 24x24 )
    6x7: 88 mm ( root of 69x69 + 56x56 )

    So you have "round about" ( don't forget Shashin's hint with the different ratios ) x0.7 = round about 35mm at your Nikon.
    Your 110 mm should be round about 77mm at your Nikon - but very intersting: if you shoot film, that's round about 55mm.

    And don't forget: the same "happens" with your aperture.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    This little tool from DT helped me a lot!
    Tech Camera, Image Circle, Focal Length Equivalent
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    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Hello Daniel,

    I used to shoot the RZ67 with film and with a Leaf Aptus 22. Currently I'm using a Hasselblad H2 with a Phase One P30+. I'm shooting MFD mainly when I need high flash sync speeds.

    What I liked about the Leaf Aptus 22 was the great skin colors it produced and you only need one lens-to-back sync cable to use it with any mechanical camera (with the proper adapter). Also the base ISO speed of 25 extended the ability to balance flash and ambient light.

    What I didn't like about my digital RZ was mainly two things. The crop of the digital back compared to film and how it affects focussing.. I built my own finder and used beattie intenscreens to compensate for this. Still this wasn't enough to make the focussing any "enjoyable". Rather the opposite was the case, focussing this camera for 4 hours a day was increadibly exhausting.

    Things to consider:
    digital RZ67 Pros:
    -Waist level finder (I love WLFs!)
    -Revolving back lets you shoot in portrait orientation with a WLF (though from the examples you showed this doesn't seem to be a huge benefit to you (yet))
    -This system has great lenses (50mm ULD, 75mm L, 110mm, 140mm Macro and the longer APO lenses just to name a few)
    -There are a lot of other good reasons to use this camera.

    Cons:
    -Focussing was quickly fatiquing
    -1/400s fastest exposure time
    -It's not possible to shoot it hendhelt (unless you don't care about image quality of course...)
    -Focussing the shorter Focal lengths (37mm - 75mm) is even less convinient due to the bellows focussing mechanism.
    -A lot of bulk and weight to carry around.

    If you are determined to use your RZ67 digitally I recommend you get yourself the DM33. It's got a good resolution, good ISO speeds and also a relatively large sensor.
    I personally would consider one of the 645 autofocus systems instead and continue using your RZ67 with film. There are a lot of used Hasselblad H cameras for relatively low prices available. Also if you don't need autofocus leaf shutter lenses the Pentax 645D is a nice camera too.

    Cool images btw.


    Regards,
    Max
    http://maxkissler.com/
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Wow, thanks for all feedback on both pictures and questions!

    I am not after replacing the D3x (or any similar DSLR) with the RZ,
    it was just considered a point of reference.

    In terms of non-portability of the RZ, with all the stuff I bring along for a shoot a few pounds
    of extra camera is really no difference. I would say I use tripod on 40% of my shots anyway and 100% of the time I have a tripod with in 2 feet since the D3x with the 14-24 2.8 and L-bracket is about 2.2kg and the RZ is about 2.5kg with 110 lens and 120back.

    BTW, as we all know the more stuff we own, the better the pictures, right?!


    Max,
    I agree that the RZ might live a parallel life as a film camera (Genau!).
    But I am curious of what a MFDB would bring to the table.

    I have tried the AFD with DB (do not remember which back but I think it was the PhaseOne version of the AFD with a MFDB as a kit so I would guess it was DM28 or DM33kit since at the time I was looking in that range and subsequently got the D3x). I was not impressed with the glass he sold with that AFD kit. The widest lens had so much chromatic aberration I thought it was a joke! Obviously it was not any of the SK lenses but they are quite pricey anyway.

    I like the charm of the RZ (so far!) just had for a week or so.



    Two questions:

    1/
    why is focusing harder with a MFDB on the RZ?
    Isn't the focus plane the same as the 120film back?

    2/
    The sensors are smaller than 6x7 format that the RZ is built for, but does that not mean the back untilises the sweet spot (more center) of the lens(es)?


    GrahamWelland:

    I really enjoyed the links, thanks!


    Talk to you guys soon,

    Daniel

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    I would get the largest sensor possible with the RZ. If you can grab a P65+ or other large sensor MFDB, that would be ideal. Being able to use a Phase/Mamiya DF body with your MFDB expands flexibility alongside your RZ.

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Quote Originally Posted by cem3387 View Post
    Wow, thanks for all feedback on both pictures and questions!

    I am not after replacing the D3x (or any similar DSLR) with the RZ,
    it was just considered a point of reference.

    In terms of non-portability of the RZ, with all the stuff I bring along for a shoot a few pounds
    of extra camera is really no difference. I would say I use tripod on 40% of my shots anyway and 100% of the time I have a tripod with in 2 feet since the D3x with the 14-24 2.8 and L-bracket is about 2.2kg and the RZ is about 2.5kg with 110 lens and 120back.

    BTW, as we all know the more stuff we own, the better the pictures, right?!


    Max,
    I agree that the RZ might live a parallel life as a film camera (Genau!).
    But I am curious of what a MFDB would bring to the table.

    I have tried the AFD with DB (do not remember which back but I think it was the PhaseOne version of the AFD with a MFDB as a kit so I would guess it was DM28 or DM33kit since at the time I was looking in that range and subsequently got the D3x). I was not impressed with the glass he sold with that AFD kit. The widest lens had so much chromatic aberration I thought it was a joke! Obviously it was not any of the SK lenses but they are quite pricey anyway.

    I like the charm of the RZ (so far!) just had for a week or so.



    Two questions:

    1/
    why is focusing harder with a MFDB on the RZ?
    Isn't the focus plane the same as the 120film back?

    2/
    The sensors are smaller than 6x7 format that the RZ is built for, but does that not mean the back untilises the sweet spot (more center) of the lens(es)?


    GrahamWelland:

    I really enjoyed the links, thanks!


    Talk to you guys soon,

    Daniel
    Hi Daniel,

    regarding your questions:
    1) Basically you're right but film is, in my experience, a different medium compared to digital. I feel (though I could technically be wrong) that depth of field behaves differently and is usually larger so that minor focussing inaccuracies are easily masked by dof. Also the thickness of a films emulsion is much larger compared to a sensor where is zero tolerance. So film is in a way a much more "forgiving" medium.

    2) That's correct. With some lenses (like the older 50mm and 65mm lenses without floating elements) you're able to notice field curvature even on a digital back. But the floating elements in the newer lenses are great at compensating for field curvature. You'll probably only ever notice it wide open. Just don't forget to set the floating elements on these lenses otherwise image quality suffers severely.

    The RZ67 is a great camera. I suggest you shoot it some more, enjoy it for another month or two. Maybe get yourself a wide and a long lens. The lenses are not too expensive, especially used ones. See if it holds its charm and make further decisions after a period of time. MFD is kind of like marriage (I guess); If you jump into it too quickly, you might regret it...


    Regards,
    Max
    http://maxkissler.com/
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Hey-hey!

    I love to shoot with RZ67 Pro IID and P25+ in AFD mount to avoid this hassle with sync cords.

    I would not get a back with 1.3 crop, so DM33 is good in this regard.

    Lenses are fantastic and have a very distinct look. Highly recommended.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Hey Ilya, are all these shot with the RZ67 Pro IID and P25+ configuration?

    Thanks,

    Daniel

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Yes, all of them. RZ67 Pro IID + HX701 + P25+ with 110mm, 65mm, 210mm APO and probably 50 ULD

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    I got the RZ IID, please tell me more about the AFD mount. As oppsed as V mount?

    Pictures looks great! I like Hiphop with glasses and Cafe dreaming best.

    What do you feel is missing on the 25+ as opposed to DM33? High(ish) ISO?

    Thanks,

    Daniel

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    I think V mount disadvantage is that you will have to run a sync cable from the lens to back. And later with AFD mount you can add ADF I-II-II-DF-DF+ bodies for autofocus, if you need one.
    Otherwise V mount will shoot the same pics, you just need another adapter.

    DM33 is actually rebranded APTUS II-7, so I would disagree with your statement that "mamiya" back is better for RZ67. Given the opportunity to self-adjust back/front focusing on RZ all the backs are the same to me. It's just about their technical performance.

    With DM33 you will get less moire due to smaller pixels and "better" skin tones due to Dalsa sensor. P25+ has HORRIBLE out-of-box colors in ACR\Lightroom, you will have to build your own profiles with colorchecker. In C1 though, it's very good, but highlights recovery is no where near Adobe, so I need to struggle . And ISO is more or less the same on these backs.

    You will get much better preview on the DM33, because of bigger better screen and, if I'm not mistaken - RAW histogram, which is amazing feature. P25+ screen is horrible. You can barely judge the composition on it.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Ilya, how would you compare 180 vs 210APO?

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    There is no 180 APO and I do not like the focal length. Comparing cheap 4.5 lens to APO 5.6 is not correct, because 210 APO is among the best lensed ever made IMHO So I'd go with 210 APO. Will post a pic for you from this lens later today.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Quote Originally Posted by itsskin View Post
    There is no 180 APO and I do not like the focal length. Comparing cheap 4.5 lens to APO 5.6 is not correct, because 210 APO is among the best lensed ever made IMHO So I'd go with 210 APO. Will post a pic for you from this lens later today.
    Fortunately the 210APO is also f4.5 It is an incredible lens, without a doubt one of the best ever.

    As for digital backs, a DM22 or 33 is a very very good choice, especially since you have the IID and can use the electronic adapter.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    It would be great to hear more in detail what the 3-4 times higher price tag brings with the 210 APO.

    Marko, What is in you experience the difference between the DM22/33 (except price and resolution and screen size)?

    Thanks,

    Daniel

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Sorry for my mistake. APO is 4.5, not 5.6. I found 1 pic from the same couple shoot with 210.

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Quote Originally Posted by cem3387 View Post
    It would be great to hear more in detail what the 3-4 times higher price tag brings with the 210 APO.

    Marko, What is in you experience the difference between the DM22/33 (except price and resolution and screen size)?

    Thanks,

    Daniel

    The 210mm APO is a true apochromat. The 180 ... isn't. So whereas the 180 will be great and look about the same as a regular lens, the 210 will look clean and natural, with clean color but be laser sharp at the same time.

    The 22/33 are very similar backs. If you don't need/want the extra resolution of the 33 I consider the 22 the better choice. It creates a somewhat cleaner file though is more prone to moire, but this can be easily fixed in C1. The bigger pixels means focusing is a bit easier too.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Notably the DM33 is ISO50-800, while the DM22 is ISO25-400.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Hi Doug,

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Notably the DM33 is ISO50-800, while the DM22 is ISO25-400.
    I rarely shoot outside the 50-100ISO on the D3x so I think it's not really a problem for me either way.

    Could you please tell me more about the focusing issue that have came up with DB on the RZ.

    I thought that the film/sensor plane was the same so what you see (in the finder) is what you get but that is apparently not the case with DB on the RZ.


    Thanks,

    Daniel

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Nothing special, but DB is more demanding to precise focusing. Film has some thickness and can forgive little focus errors. With DB CCD has almost zero thickness and focus must be dead on, especially if you shoot wide open.
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    A good dealer checks focus alignment on every system they sell and will gladly step you through how to double check their work. At least we do.

    RZ is fairly straight forward to check and correct.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Hey Doug, to bad you are 2816 miles away!

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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Quote Originally Posted by cem3387 View Post
    Hey Doug, to bad you are 2816 miles away!
    But the way Doug communicates, it feels like he is your next door neighbor.
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)
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    Re: What digital back for Mamiya RZ IID

    Just wanted to say I use my RZ67 Pro IID with DM22 (Leaf Aptus-II 5) back. I sold my 645 AFD III and replaced it with the RZ! Why? Simply, because I had so many photos out of focus using Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 N or even 80mm f/2.8 D lens. However, 90% of images taken with the RZ and digital back is correctly focused even handhold! Just use a bright screen like one of matte ones by Bill Maxwell. More info about the screen can be found here Bill Maxwell Hi-Lux Brilliant Matte Focusing Screen Review | Aryan Aqajani
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